Well me and a bunch of rl friends decided to start new characters and level them up as a party on the PW we play on, as I didn’t feel like restarting my bard I had to come up with a new character idea. Always liked paladins – but the goody two shoes approach people perceive for them annoys me sometimes, and theres loads of chests and traps on the server we play on, so I decided Paladin/Rogue. This was looking rather feat starved and by level 16 the paladin gets level 4 spells anyway and theres isn’t a great reason to take him further, sure lay on hands etc. gets a bit better per level but enough to take another x levels of paladin. The same with rogue, not doing a dex build I didn’t feel the need to take more rogue levels passed 16 for bonus rogue feats.

Fighter would have been nice for extra feats but would have led to xp penalties, so I decided on the good old CoT – extra feats, divine wrath and a bit of a boost to saves. I took rogue to 16 mainly because I wanted crippling strike, slippery mind and improved evasion. Rerolling will and reflex saves when they are boosted by CoT and paladin comes in quite handy..

As for the race – I’m in a Halfling frame of mind at the moment, granted Human would probably be the better choice, an extra feat, extra skill points, no loss of strength and as im not using the Halfling dex bonus I wouldn’t miss it. Added to that the Halfling bonus to fear saves is never used due to paladins being immune and all I really get out of the Halfling is a bonus to ac for small stature and an inability to use tower shields and large weapons. However – as I say – Im having fun making Halfling builds at the moment so the Halfling won. I went for longsword over say rapier or scimitar because there are some very good holy avenger longswords on the PW we are playing on.

Anyway heres the build for critique and character assassination

Race – Halfling (Human is probably better for feats and skills)
Alignment – Lawful Good

Starting

Str 13
Dex 10
Con 14
Wis 14
Int 12
Cha 14


Leveling

1 Rogue 1 – Power Attack
2 Rogue 2
3 Paladin 1 - Cleave
4 Paladin 2 - +1 Str
5 Paladin 3
6 Paladin 4 – Divine Might
7 Paladin 5
8 Paladin 6 - +1 Cha
9 Paladin 7 – Divine Shield
10 Paladin 8
11 Paladin 9
12 Rogue 3 – Weapon focus: Longsword, +1 Cha
13 Paladin 10
14 Paladin 11
15 Paladin 12 – Extra Turning
16 Paladin 13 - +1 Str
17 Paladin 14
18 Paladin 15 – Improved critical: Longsword
19 Paladin 16
20 Rogue 4 - +1 Str
21 CoT 1 – Great Charisma I
22 CoT 2 – Epic Weapon Focus: Longsword
23 Rogue 5
24 Rogue 6 – Great Charisma II, +1 Str
25 Rogue 7
26 Rogue 8
27 Rogue 9 – Great Charisma III
28 Rogue 10 – Crippling strike, +1 Str
29 CoT 3
30 CoT 4 – Epic Prowess, Great Charisma IV
31 Rogue 11
32 Rogue 12 - +1 Str
33 Rogue 13 – Great Strength I, Slippery Mind
34 CoT 5
35 Rogue 14
36 Rogue 15 – Great Charisma V, +1 Str
37 CoT 6 – Armour skin
38 CoT 7
39 CoT 8 – Great Charisma VI, Blind Fight
40 Rogue 16 – Improved Evasion, +1 Str


Ending

Str 22
Dex 10
Con 14
Wis 14
Int 12
Cha 22


Skills

1 Disable Trap 4, Open Lock 4, Search 4, Set Trap 4, Tumble 4, UMD 4.
2 Disable Trap 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Set Trap 1, Tumble 1, UMD 1.
3 Discipline 6.
4 Discipline 1.
5 Discipline 1.
6 Discipline 1.
7 Discipline 1.
8 Discipline 1.
9 Discipline 1.
10 Discipline 1.
11 Discipline 1.
12 Disable Trap 5, Open Lock 5, Search 5, Set Trap 5, Tumble 10, UMD 5.
13 Discipline 2.
14 Discipline 1.
15 Discipline 1.
16 Discipline 1.
17 Discipline 1.
18 Discipline 1.
19 Discipline 1.
20 Disable Trap 4, Open Lock 4, Search 4, Set Trap 4, Tumble 5, UMD 3.
21 Discipline 2.
22 Discipline 1.
23 Disable Trap 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Set Trap 1, Tumble 5, UMD 2.
24 Disable Trap 2, Open Lock 2, Search 2, Set Trap 2.
25 Disable Trap 2, Open Lock 2, Search 2, Set Trap 2.
26 Disable Trap 2, Open Lock 2, Search 2, Set Trap 2.
27 Disable Trap 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Set Trap 1, Tumble 5, UMD 4.
28 Disable Trap 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Set Trap 1.
29 Discipline 7.
30 Discipline 1.
31 Disable Trap 2, Open Lock 2, Search 2, Set Trap 2.
32 Disable Trap 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Set Trap 1, Tumble 5.
33 Disable Trap 2, Open Lock 2, Search 2, Set Trap 2, UMD 1.
34 Discipline 4.
35 Disable Trap 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Set Trap 1.
36 Disable Trap 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Set Trap 1, UMD 5.
37 Discipline 2.
38 save
39 save
40 Disable Trap 5, Open Lock 5, Search 4, Set Trap 5, Tumble 5.



HP - 329


AC – 20 naked, 28 basic full plate


AB – unarmed 36/31/26/21, Basic Longsword 39/34/29/24


Saves ..start/end

Fort 34
Reflex 30
Will 29

I chose the first two levels as rogue to get a boost to the skill points and an early start on disarm traps, open locks and tumble. I went all paladin pre epic to get the divine might, shield, extra turning and full paladin spells along with a good AB, the other 2 pre epic rogue levels were taken as skill dumps.

I tried to get a balance between a Cha based character and Str based, as such he doesn’t excel at any one, however with extra turning, divine shield and divine might with some items to boost charisma he makes up for the lack of strength.

I didn’t take hide or move silently because this guys a paladin – that means full palte and none of this sneaking about!

UMD is capped on the server I play on – as I discovered the other day with my bard, much to my shock – it cant be raised higher than 10 + rogue/bard level. So with 16 levels of rogue the most I could take it to would be 26.

Anyway that’s the build – any ideas for improvement? Apart from using human – even though I know it would make the build far better and easier to use probably…. A couple of suggestions:

Drop Rogue to 13 (sacrificing Slippery Mind) and either Paladin to 19 (more spells) or Paladin to 17 and CoT to 10 (more spells, another feat, improved saves and better Divine Wrath)

Drop Cleave and replace with any of Toughness, Extend Spell, KD, Blind Fight. You really do not benefit from the Strength being taken that high - overall the build is weaker due to trying to do too much. Take STR to 18 by all means, but I would seriously consider leaving it there. After all with your buffs and Strength boosting equipment, which is usually quite common, this can be improved readily.

I would be tempted to leave your rogue levels until 21st and beyond, purely to allow your 4th level spells becoming available sooner and preserving your AB and better HP. Taking some CoT pre-epic would be sensible as well - for instance Blind Fight is currently taken near the end of the builds life.

Anyway, a few tweaks give this below:

STR: 13 (20)
DEX: 10
CON: 14
WIS: 14
INT: 12
CHA: 14 (22)

01: Paladin(1): Weapon Focus: Longsword
02: Paladin(2): {Smite Evil}
03: Paladin(3): Extra Turning
04: Paladin(4): STR+1, (STR=14)
05: Paladin(5)
06: Paladin(6): Power Attack
07: Paladin(7)
08: Paladin(8): STR+1, (STR=15)
09: Paladin(9): Divine Might
10: Paladin(10)
11: Paladin(11)
12: Paladin(12): CHA+1, Divine Shield, (CHA=15)
13: Paladin(13)
14: Paladin(14)
15: Paladin(15): Extend Spell
16: Paladin(16): CHA+1, (CHA=16)
17: Champion of Torm(1)
18: Champion of Torm(2): Toughness, Blind Fight
19: Champion of Torm(3)
20: Champion of Torm(4): CHA+1, Knockdown, (CHA=17)
21: Champion of Torm(5): Great Charisma I, (CHA=18)
22: Rogue(1)
23: Champion of Torm(6): Epic Weapon Focus: Longsword
24: Champion of Torm(7): CHA+1, Great Charisma II, (CHA=20)
25: Champion of Torm(8): Epic Prowess
26: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
27: Rogue(3): Great Charisma III, {Uncanny Dodge I}, (CHA=21)
28: Rogue(4): STR+1, (STR=16)
29: Rogue(5)
30: Rogue(6): Great Strength I, (STR=17)
31: Rogue(7)
32: Rogue(8): STR+1, (STR=18)
33: Rogue(9): Great Strength II, (STR=19)
34: Rogue(10): Crippling Strike
35: Rogue(11)
36: Rogue(12): STR+1, Epic Will, (STR=20)
37: Paladin(17)
38: Paladin(18)
39: Paladin(19): Armor Skin
40: Rogue(13): CHA+1, Improved Evasion, (CHA=22)

Hitpoints: 468
Skillpoints: 207
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 37/33/30
Saving Throw bonuses: Traps: +2, Fear: +2
BAB: 30
AB (max, naked): 40 (melee), 33 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 21/31
Spell Casting: Paladin(4)

Overall you gain in AB, CHA, Fort Save +3, Will Save +4 and hitpoints.

You maintain your sneak attack at 7d6, rather than 8d6, which is not a great deal to be honest. With your will save so high, slippery mind is of no major use anyway.

You would gain so much by going human - using a shield for one, no Str penalty, more skill points and an extra feat - which you need btw.

The downside with this route is the delay in all your thieving abilities.

I would also consider dropping Improved Crit for Toughness or something more useful.

Just some thoughts anyway.

Edited By I...Samphus on 04/24/06 14:58

Quote: You really do not benefit from the Strength being taken that high - overall the build is weaker due to trying to do too much. Take STR to 18 by all means, but I would seriously consider leaving it there. After all with your buffs and Strength boosting equipment, which is usually quite common, this can be improved readily.

I was actually thinking of dropping strength to 18 or 20, there are quite a few strength increasing items on the server we are on, and dropping strength allows more stat increases to charisma - allowing more feats due to less great charisma/Strength

Quote: I would be tempted to leave your rogue levels until 21st and beyond, purely to allow your 4th level spells becoming available sooner and preserving your AB and better HP. Taking some CoT pre-epic would be sensible as well - for instance Blind Fight is currently taken near the end of the builds life.

I wanted rogue early on for disarming traps and opening locks - lots of the best early loot is locked and trapped, there are also some spawn guarding loot and dungeons that are immune to all weapons and can only be hurt by traps and magic. CoT is there purely for extra feats, but taking it pre epic means i dont get level 4 paladin spells until post epic - or i lose rogue. As for blind fight - it was a throw away skill at the end, I'd like to include it earlier but couldnt really see what to swap it for.

Quote: Overall you gain in AB, CHA, Fort Save +3, Will Save +4 and hitpoints.

You maintain your sneak attack at 7d6, rather than 8d6, which is not a great deal to be honest. With your will save so high, slippery mind is of no major use anyway.

I was actually looking at this for version 2 of the build - lose the 3 levels of rogue and put them into paladin - will lose approx 18 skill points but gain a lot more spell use - I would like extend spell in tehre somewhere as well as most of the spells i will be using will be to buff. As you say slippery mind isnt that useful in this case

Quote: You would gain so much by going human - using a shield for one, no Str penalty, more skill points and an extra feat - which you need btw.

definately - as I say human would be the first choice for any sensible builder for this kind of character - but as I said, I'm in a halfling mood at the moment, and full plate clad halfling with a big sword just look so cute! however i am wavering and thinking of going human for the extra feat and skill points - especially if i cut down rogue levels - those extra skill points will come in handy

Quote: The downside with this route is the delay in all your thieving abilities.

I would also consider dropping Improved Crit for Toughness or something more useful.

Just some thoughts anyway.

As I say I dont really want to delay the rogue levels, and to max the AB i did everything in multiples of 4 pre epic. Improved Crit is fairly disposable - could be worth swapping that out for toughness or extend spell, take blind fight on an earlier great charisma and lower strength a bit.

Thanks for the feedback and ideas - might have to start tinkering version 2 now

Edited By Caithdein na Briona on 04/24/06 17:47