Well this build should own every other melee character. It's based on one of Torias' builds on the very first page of Part One of this thread, but swaps Weapon Master abilites for the Pale Master's immunity to critical hits and epic spells:
Finishes 14 Bard / 10 RDD / 16 Pale Master Race: Human
Starting Stats: Str 16 Dex 16 Con 8 Wis 8 Int 12 Cha 14
Pre-epic, take levels like this: 12 * Bard 8 * Red Dragon Disciple with feats: 1 - Weapon Proficiency Martial, Dodge 3 - Mobility 6 - Power Attack 9 - Spring Attack 12 - Weapon Focus: Scimitar (you can use anything, but I like the scimitar's 18-20 critical threat and cool shape) 15 - Cleave 18 - Improved Critical: Scimitar Increase strength at levels 4 and 8, increase dexterity at 12, 16 and 20.
Skills at level 12 (Bard 12) (ranks, not including ability scores) Lore 8 Tumble 15 Persuade 7 Perform 15 Discipline 15 Spellcraft 15 Use Magic Device 15 Skills at level 20 (Bard 12 / RDD eight) Lore 8 Tumble 15 Persuade 15 Perform 15 Discipline 23 Spellcraft 23 Use Magic Device 15 plus 8 saved points
So at level 20, the stats look like Str 22 (+2 from levels, +4 from RDD) Dex 19 (+3 from levels) Con 10 (+2 from RDD) Wis 8 Int 12 Cha 14
Epic progression: 2 * RDD 4 * Pale Master 1 * Bard 12 * Pale Master 1 * Bard For skills: PM levels: Spellcraft, Persuade save rest RDD levels: Spellcraft, Discipline, Persuade, save rest Bard levels: Raise Perform to the maximum necessary for level 14 Bard Song (I think it's 22), then put all saved skill points Discipline, UMD, Tumble, Spellcraft etc. Put any left over points into whatever you want; I chose Heal, but anything's good really.
For stat increase, put them into Dex all the way. 10th level RDD gives +4 Strength, giving you 26, enough to get Devastating Critical. This way, you'll have 23 Dex by level 36, enabling you to take Improved Whirlwind Attack at that level. But before I get ahead of myself, here's the order of feats:
21 - Great Cleave 24 - Expertise 27 - Whirlwind Attack 30 - Overwhelming Critical 33 - Devastating Critical 36 - Improved Whirlwind Attack, *Epic Spell: Mage Armour 39 - Epic Spell: Warding *Epic Spell: Hellball (the * denotes Pale Master bonus feats) Overall, this build owns in high-level PvP melee because it can dish out devastating criticals to everyone around thanks to Improved Whirlwind Attack, but is immune to criticals itself. And if it's up against other crit-immune characters, or characters with high Fortitude saves, it can always cast Hellball, use a scroll, or buff up with Epic Mage Armour and Epic Warding and slug it out til the end.
Plus it has something like 38 AC naked, decent saves, 3 attacks per round unlike some PM builds, a nice critical threat roll, Bard Song buffs, 4th level Bard spells and can summon a Ghoul King. And did I mention it gets both the skeletal arm AND the dragon wings? Freakalicious!
EDIT: cleaned up the smiley and added final level stats
Edited By Herbie Shimmer on 03/07/04 19:52:33
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 02/27/08 16:15
Why take mobility, spring attack, whirlwind attack, and improved whirlwind attack? You would be able to get Dev Crit at lvl 24 that way. I have a much similar build, and it works great as is. You said it was based on a weapon master build, are these feats you just forgot to take out? Oh wait, I imagine Herbie doesn't read here, if someone else can fill a brother in that'd be great.
Actually I just joined the guild about a week ago, better late than never I guess.
I made this build originally as an improvement on Torias' Whirling Death build, which is featured on Bioware's Epic Character Build page. I love playing that character (only I use a scimitar, not a rapier) but I found it got destroyed fairly often when faced by really big gangs of monsters. You see, it takes a whole round to fire off its Improved Whirlwind Attack, and so it has to put up with at least one round of attacks thrown in its direction. Whirling Death doesn't have the greatest AC or HP in the world so quite often I'd die before getting that all important IWWA off, especially if some of the attacks were criticals.
My build posted above is the same kind of one trick pony, able to annihilate large groups of baddies thanks to Dev Crit and IWWA, but it also has a few more defensive capabilities thanks to the PM levels, most notably Immunity to Criticals and Epic Warding.
I have actually posted a few more general purpose Bard / RDD / PM builds, but I'm not sure if they're indexed or not. I might have promised to do a write up of my favourite one ages ago, I don't remember, but the concept is so simple and has already been done to death, you can't really go too far wrong with it.
bard/rdd/pm is far from one trick pony my friend. a self buffing (dev) critting machine with a rapier or a scim is always nice. my current build gets a decent ab, and a decent (for my PW) ac of 50. a good solid all around build, especially if you factor the bard song into play. i'd like to look at more of your bard/rdd/pm builds, i've never written up my toon, but i have to imagine it is quite similar. i understand now i think that this was more of a PvM toon,and not a PvP one, also that it is more of a themed build then i first thought.
Well I have two main "flavours" of this build. I played one a low-magic world with Tony K's improved AI hak installed. That one was bard 8 / RDD 10 / PM 22 and got 5 epic spells and a massive AC. 22 PM meant it got to summon a Lich, and an Ancient Red Dragon (Dragon Knight epic spell). With the improved AI, these two were actually worthwhile. The Lich would cast Greater Dispelling on anything that was buffed, and Finger of Death at anything that wasn't. The dragon would spam Improved Knockdown with every hit. It was awesome! I used a gnome, and i think it started with stats Str 14 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 12 specialising in a scimitar of course. But this version was only really useful on that PW, because the summons are useless unless the improved AI is installed, which it rarely is.
The more common one is the Bard 14 / RDD 10 / PM 16. I got three epic spells with it, Hellball, Epic Mage Armour, and Epic Warding. Again it was a gnome, and I think the stats were pretty much the same. Compared to the one posted on this thread, it dropped a few pointless feats like Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack etc., and went for Curse Song, Extend Spell, Still Spell and Combat Casting too I think. I could be wrong about that though. I guess I could do a full write up, but it'll take me a while.
As you can probably guess, I picked gnome so I could use a scimitar but also get the 1.5x Str modifier added to the damage. As any Str-based RDD build gets at least +18 to Str from levelling up and the RDD ability bonuses, it doesn't really matter about starting with 14 Str. Unless you're going for as big a Dev Crit DC as you possibly can, but if you're interested in that, see my other thread.
IWA is great for mopping up groups of low levels, but so is Great Cleave. There's a lot of feats used to get IWA, and it's not a lot of use against bosses or in PvP.
Why the split 14 Bard 16 PM? Is there something special about these levels as opposed to say B11/RDD10/PM19?
AB and damage are low compared to other builds. Against anything with a decent AC (e.g. Rogue or Monk hybrids) you're never gonna get that Dev Crit anyway.
If you're going to pwn a melee build it isn't going to be on melee. It's because you got Epic Warding.
IWA is great for mopping up groups of low levels, but so is Great Cleave. There's a lot of feats used to get IWA, and it's not a lot of use against bosses or in PvP.
Why the split 14 Bard 16 PM? Is there something special about these levels as opposed to say B11/RDD10/PM19?
AB and damage are low compared to other builds. Against anything with a decent AC (e.g. Rogue or Monk hybrids) you're never gonna get that Dev Crit anyway.
If you're going to pwn a melee build it isn't going to be on melee. It's because you got Epic Warding.
In the original post, when I said "own every other melee character", I was referring to its effectiveness PvM rather than PvP. Great Cleave is handy, you're right, but you don't get a Great Cleave when you kill something with Dev Crit, hence the need for IWWA. I agree that it is kind of impractical; that's why I left it out of my subsequent Bard / RDD / PM builds, which are more all-round characters rather than one trick ponies.
I did actually make a Bard 11 / RDD 10 / PM 19 version of this build. It was my favourite "flavour" for a while. But the only advantage it really gets over the PM 16 version is an extra feat, and the only worthwhile thing you can spend it on is an epic spell. On most PWs, Epic Mage Armour is kind of useless and gives you only a +5 dodge bonus to AC, since you already have +5 or better equipment for all the other AC types. The summons are useless without the improved AI, so you're left with only 3 decent epic spells: Warding, Hellball and Greater Ruin, and even Greater Ruin isn't really that useful,since most things make their save agaisnt it. The Bard 14 / PM 16 version gets 3 epic spells, IIRC, so there's no point going for 19 PM levels.
Bard 14 also gets better Bard / Curse song effects and a 5th level bard spell, which is useful for a stilled War Cry or stilled Improved Invisibility. It's not much of an advantage, but it can certainly be used to good effect.
The reason that I enjoy this type of build is the ease at which one can engage in a fight. I doesn't take so long as a full blown mage to prep, so if one gets jumped just strolling along, all he's gotta do is sing his song, down a haste pot, and start the *** whuppin. Taking too many PM levels seems to stray away from this idea, my final result will probably be much less, more like 14 or so. All in all, a bard/rdd/pm always seems to me that it should be a short casting long songing melee type.
Actually all three classes get their best bits by level 10. It's an awesome level 30 combo, but there's nothing extra being added, classwise (there are of course epic feats) after this point. I'd have thought that getting access to level 9 spells was more useful than a slightly better bard song, but I could easily be wrong.
Agreed Thorsson. If i had a lvl 30 limit i'd take 10 of each. I guess my whole questioning of the build was if there were MAJOR bennies of PM levels. You have to get a decent CHA to cast higher bard spells, and that just doesn't seem worth it. Wasted spell slots and wasted stat points with epic spells VRS. more RDD lvls for extra HP VRS. more bard lvls for better song and wider spread of skill points. All down to what you want to do. I'm not an expert in the field, I was just looking for a better reason then the obvious to use so many PM lvls. Fair enough.
Actually all three classes get their best bits by level 10. It's an awesome level 30 combo, but there's nothing extra being added, classwise (there are of course epic feats) after this point. I'd have thought that getting access to level 9 spells was more useful than a slightly better bard song, but I could easily be wrong.
That isn't quite true. It is with RDD, but PM comes into the extra boost of level 16 being able to take epic mage armor and epic warding. That alone makes a average defense a great one. Two more levels of bard will max out bardsong, not to mention you are overlooking bard spells which can be very useful. By default PrCs get there main tools in 10 levels, but there is more beyond, and PM is one of those that has more. _________________ Come visit the Epic Builders Guild for all the character info you could ever want or need: Click Here
Certainly Epic Warding is worth having. Epic Mage Armor is more debateable. Worth it on a low magic world, not where there are +5 or better items.
But surely this whole build is weak on spells considering the levels invested into Spellcasting? The max level is 6. And those are Bard Spells, which are no way as good as those available to a Sorceror or Wizard.
As you get Epic Mage Armor is Tumble so important as to give up what could be yours if you invested all the spare points into Int and took Wizard instead?
Certainly Epic Warding is worth having. Epic Mage Armor is more debateable. Worth it on a low magic world, not where there are +5 or better items.
But the point of good builds is to overcome the need for items. The idea is not to cater a build posted here to a specific PW, but rather to make an effective build that another may choose to use on a PW that suits them.
Quote: But surely this whole build is weak on spells considering the levels invested into Spellcasting? The max level is 6. And those are Bard Spells, which are no way as good as those available to a Sorceror or Wizard.
14 Bard levels gives quite a good selection of spells. I would definately not call it a weak spellcaster. Also comparing bard spells to wiz/sorc is sort of like comparing apples to oranges. They are all arcane spells and some even overlap between all the classes, but some overlap with divine spells too. The point of bard spells is utility and not killing bad guys. On a build like this you already have the killing part covered with dev critting scimitars, so utility comes in very handy to make that killing part that much better.
Quote: As you get Epic Mage Armor is Tumble so important as to give up what could be yours if you invested all the spare points into Int and took Wizard instead?
That would be a call based ont he player and situation. One would argue in some PWs you have a very long time between resting, and having tumble always being there is a good thing. Others where you rest as much as you want, it becomes less important as you always keep the spell up then. _________________ Come visit the Epic Builders Guild for all the character info you could ever want or need: Click Here
Here's a quick levelling guide for a more all-around version of the build. This is the one I'd recommend for PvP.
Gnome, True Neutral Str 16 Dex 8 Con 16 Wis 8 Int 10 Cha 13 Boost Str all the way, of course Go for 8 ranks in Lore ASAP, then go for Tumble, Discipline, Concentration, Spellcraft and Perform. Not sure about exact distribution, I'll post that later. The RDD stat boost to Int should help out here though.
Finishing stats Str 34 Dex 8 Con 18 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 16
There you go, I think that should do it. It should be quite easy to level up if you follow this too - it gets Dev Crit as early as possible, and Epic Spells as early as possible really. Pre-20 it will be quite difficult, but a few ranks in UMD should let you get a few scrolls on the go to help out.
Quote: Posted 11/11/04 23:18:57 (GMT) -- Emrill
But the point of good builds is to overcome the need for items. The idea is not to cater a build posted here to a specific PW, but rather to make an effective build that another may choose to use on a PW that suits them.
That may be your point, but it isn't mine. I'm a practical person, and to make a build that is flawed in the "real world" is a waste of time to me. The worlds where a +1 weapon is like a real Raphael painting are also the worlds where it takes you 5 years to reach 10th level (which makes a 40th level build kinda moot...).
I'll follow the 'Dilbert rules' of arguing with you about a good build is a build based on items. It doesn't serve any purpose in this thread, or any. _________________ Come visit the Epic Builders Guild for all the character info you could ever want or need: Click Here
Totally righteous dude. God forbid we should ever play these builds.
Some worlds have faster levelling and little magic items. Its all about balance.
Also remember that the baseline that was originally used to determine an Epic Build on the bioware site was that of a build with no equipment.
Most of the builds I have made do not qualify for that since they require items to be effective. So does that make them invalid to be posted here , no, since here we can find builds that dont need items, do need items and everything in between. Doesnt stop this build from being pretty good.
Syrath
Fair comment.
My point though, is that certain things are present on almost every world. A build that ignores this is just as limited as a build that depends on the "7331", like the ones I see that casually mention +20 weapons.
BTW if you know of a world with reasonably quick levelling (i.e. at OC levels) and low magic items please tell me. I find most worlds not run by the anally retentive have ridiculous levels of magic.
If you look closely at the build mentioning those +20's it is more of a suplimentary information item, than an item that the build depends on. If you gear a build to a specific PW that's fine, but the poor guy who likes your build and tries it somewher else to have it fail miserable, won't be to happy. It's understood many builds will be using items of various degrees, but a build shouldn't rely on a specific item or two. _________________ Come visit the Epic Builders Guild for all the character info you could ever want or need: Click Here
I have a similar build but I went with Dwarf. It looks like this: Bard 14/RDD 10/PM 16 Race: Dwarf Aligmnet: TN Starting stats str 16 dex 8 con 16 int 14 wis 8 chr 13
Ending stats str 35 or 36 if i skipp epic mage armour dex 8 con 18 int 16 wis 8 chr 16
Couldn't make a dwarf with scimitar so I chose battleaxe. Found out later that I get one more atack with bard12 and then RDD8 pre epic.
Edited By True_light on 12/06/04 00:16
The Bard/RDD/PM is a fun solid build to play. Either going the high damage route wielding a weapon 2-handed or more defensive. I also use a Dwarf.
One of the best abilities I find are the immunities; especially to fire, stun, hold, paralyses, and importantly crits (that can be a quick killer at high epic levels). Bard 14/RDD 10/PM 16 Race: Dwarf Aligmnet: TN or CN Starting stats str 14 (29) dex 10 con 18 (22) int 12 (14) wis 10 chr 12 (14)
ok so far i've seen dwarf human and gnome posted any Elven builds of this type?
Elven builds of this type would be largely pointless, as there's no point going dex-based with this type of build. It already gets massive AC and there's no way to get the high dex epic feats like Epic Dodge or Self-Concealment.
I wouldn't say that elf variations of this are pointless, as I play with one myself. Elves can be str based, there is no hard rule saying that all elves must be dexers. Using elf, you dont have to waste a feat on Martial Weps and can still use a rapier or long sword, of course Rapier being the prefered wep. _________________ If everyone is thinking alike, then someone is failing to think.
I wouldn't say that elf variations of this are pointless, as I play with one myself. Elves can be str based, there is no hard rule saying that all elves must be dexers. Using elf, you dont have to waste a feat on Martial Weps and can still use a rapier or long sword, of course Rapier being the prefered wep.
Fair enough, I didn't think of that to be honest. I generally don't like using rapiers because the Keen Edge spell doesn't work with them, and they look too namby pamby and girlish, while scimitars are a cool pirate weapon.
Seriously though, if you could post your build in a little more detail, that would be good for the thread and give us all a chance to see how it could work for us, too.
Sure thing. Here is a build I use for an Elf bard/rdd/pm.
AB w/mundane rapier- 41/36/31 Damage- 1-6+12 (plus greater magic wep and any scrolls) crit range 15-20 (13-20 if lucky enough to find keen rapier, but 15-20 not bad for no keen wep)
Overall, this build is pretty good, not over the top, but pretty good. A lot of options with the high UMD, bard buffs, and still spell. Curse song is a sweet bonus and really helps on the harder mobs. The 3 attacks per round ain't that great, but with the other stuff the build brings (Epic Warding and Hellball included) it ain't so bad either. If you see any ways to improve this build please let me know, always looking to make it better. _________________ If everyone is thinking alike, then someone is failing to think.
thank you for posting an elf version of the build much apreciated
No problem Hope you like it. _________________ If everyone is thinking alike, then someone is failing to think.
lol isn't it simple to make it a dex build? just put all the points into dex. You'll get + 10 str from the RDD anyway, so the STR won't be bat either, and just weapon focus some dex weapon like Rapier or Scimitar?
wouldn't that make it better, i'm not goof at working out stat could someone see if that would work?
I guess you could make it a dex char, but it wouldn't make it better. Thats +8 to str by RDD levels, btw. IMO, its a waste of time making a dexer that doesnt have epic dodge and self conceal feats. You have to have something to off set the fact that you wont be doing alot of damage to opponents. This char would never be able to get Epic dodge, and conversely, self conceal. Trust me, strength is the only way to go with this type of build. Not to say that you can't make a dexer with the build, but it will be weaker than the str version. _________________ If everyone is thinking alike, then someone is failing to think.
The dragon would spam Improved Knockdown with every hit. It was awesome!
IWA is great for mopping up groups of low levels, but so is Great Cleave. There's a lot of feats used to get IWA, and it's not a lot of use against bosses or in PvP.
is a waste of time to me. The worlds where a +1 weapon is like a real Raphael painting are also the worlds where it takes you 5 years to reach 10th level (which makes a 40th level build kinda moot...).
I'll follow the 'Dilbert rules' of arguing with you about a good build is a build based on items. It doesn't serve any purpose in this thread, or any.
Some worlds have faster levelling and little magic items. Its all about balance. 
Sure thing. Here is a build I use for an Elf bard/rdd/pm.