“With a motion, the Lich sent his minions around her to prevent her escape. She smiled, bemused. There was something dazzling about her, the way she moved when not moving, the way clothes moved around her blending with the shadows, her dark skin the shadow of her cold white mane. Her beauty weaved in the swathes of shadow, cloth, and desire almost as if she was just a mirage brought on by his troubled mind, his haunted past. Her elvish eyes burned with life – even from afar, he was drawn to her, her life force tantalizing him. His bone jaw almost curled into a smile as he thought of what could have been, being with her when he was counted among the living. . ."
“In an instant, she moved among his undead warriors like a ghost wisping through a haunted room. Each swing she dodged effortlessly – her form everywhere her body wasn’t. After each had swung their weapons a few times and missed, she paused looking at them and smile across her pristine face. If they had breath, they would have gasped. A clear song, like a dirge one plays before love-making, began to echo across the chamber as her sword slithered from its sheaths. Then she was moving again, faster this time, swinging her sword as if she were making love to the shadows. Each swing cleaved a minion – one blow was all she needed, the steel a brief flicker among the carnage."
“Arcane words intoned forth from the Lich, but each spell she dodged lithely jumping a stream of eldritch energy from one side to another. Before he sensed her, she was near him, looking up into his darkness. She smiled, and brought her face close to his as if they were going to embrace – steel flashed in the lich’s periphery as he felt the blade singe through his exposed rib cage. His soul was suddenly ripped down by an inextricable tug. He was able to hold himself there for one more moment. . ."
He looked into her smiling face as she laid two fingers across the exposed bone of his skeleton face, she was so close he almost thought he could smell her. As the invisible hand of the underworld tensed around his ankle, his soul burned hot – whether from anguish or desire he could not tell – and plummeted to the darkness below. His last memory after a thousand years was the soft humming of her song, gleeful and just, running across his skull down into the ear toward the hollow that was his heart, heavy, moist like dirt across the top of a grave. . . “
This build was intended to do two things: 1) have a character with most levels in Shadowdancer -- many people use SD but most do not into epic due to the lack of basic feats and steep prerequisites (Self-concealment requires 30+ Dex); 2) create a character that combines Devastating Critical w/ melee weapon and Epic Dodge/Self-Concealment – I have not seen any builds that have both. The build is very versatile in that you can make it even more evasive (Self-Conceal V) or more combat oriented (Imp Whirlwind Attack, Epic Weapon Focus). I list those at the end.
This is my first build, so any and all thoughts are welcome. I haven’t had time to read all builds, so hopefully this has not been posted before.
Pluses: 1) Dev Critical w/ Melee + Epic Dodge + Self-Concealment 2) Great stats: ST 26, DX 30, IN 14, CH 15 3) Decent buff spells and Bard song 4) Decent BA and AC: +33/+28/+23 no buffs (equal to the bonus on “Damage Adept” on NWN epic page, not damage of course) and AC 32 w/ Epic Dodge and 30% Concealment 5) Breath weapon 6) Lots of skills
Negatives: 1) Saving throws are particularly weak in Will and Fortitude. She will need items and probably won’t do well on magic server (as I tested I was sometimes effected by spells from a Red Dragon). 2) Not a lot of HP (tested avg. 238 of 304), but you shouldn’t be getting hit too often before you take others out. 3) Limited magic. 4) Can have hard time hitting some creatures depending on AC. 5) This may be more successful w/ Assassin (didn’t feel like being evil) or Rogue (did take due to lack of epic feats from class level, but will test in near future).
Elf / Neutral Good
Str 14, ends 26 Dex 19, ends 30 Con 8, ends 10 Wis 8 Int 12, ends 14 Wis 13, ends 15
Feats: Lvl 1: Dodge Lvl 3: Weapon Focus: Longsword (once Keen Edge is fixed I would take Rapier) Lvl 6: Power Attack Lvl 9: Cleave Lvl 12: Improved Critical: Longsword Lvl 15: Mobility Lvl 18: Great Cleave Lvl 21: Great Dexterity I Lvl 24: Great Dexterity II Lvl 27: Great Dexterity III Lvl 30: Great Strength I Lvl 31: Epic Dodge Lvl 33: Overwhelming Critical: Longsword Lvl 34: Self-Concealment I Lvl 36: Self-Concealment II Lvl 39: Devastating Critical: Longsword Lvl 40: Self-Concealment III
AC 32 (naked) + Buffs: Mage Armor (+4) (every first attack misses, 30% miss after that) +33/+28/+23 – w/ buffs +39 Damage 1-8 (or 1-6 once Keen Edge is fixed) + 13 w/ 15-20 critical (13-20 if you could use rapier + KE)
As I said, you can also make this more evasion or combat oriented: More evasion: take INT to 10, make strength 15; now you no longer need either Great Strength, but you will not get Devastating Critical either. On 30, Overwhelming Weapon Focus, on 33 take an additional Self-Concealment and 36 take Self-Concealment; this will get you to Self-Conceal V. On 39, take Epic Weapon Focus to bring attack to +35. I didn’t do this due to skill loss and the fact it didn’t meet my initial idea. Still would be a good build, possibly better in the end as SC V is very powerful, especially on servers that do not allow Dev Crit.
More combat: forego all Self-Conceal. Take STR on 28, 32, 36, Dex on 40. Instead of taking Bard 8 at lvl 22, take it at 40 to get 43 ranks of Discipline. Take the following feats (you can switch for other combat feats, but Improved Whirlwind is one of the few SD Epic feats and taking something else will throw off the build at that point): Lvl 21: Epic Weapon Focus: Longsword (Rapier) Lvl 24: Spring Attack Lvl 27: Expertise Lvl 30: Overwhelming Critical: Longsword, Epic Dodge Lvl 33: Whirlwind Attack, Improved Whirlwind Attack Lvl 36: Devastating Critical: Longsword, Epic Shadowlord Lvl 39: Great Strength I (took instead of Epic Prowess, as I get 26 Str +1 to hit and damage); Epic Skill Focus: Tumble Epic Skill Focus is a little weak, so you can go SD 19 and take 3 more Bard levels which would net you 4th level spells including War Cry which seem worth it to me. That is also a good build, just no Self-Conceal.
Thanks for reading.
I noticed that in the final stats, the char has more dex than str. So, why not go the finesse way?
Feats are very tight and sequenced in this build given the high reqs for D Crit and Self-Concealment.
If you're willing to trade out a couple of points on a stat, then you can replace one of the Great Strengths (as this will only require two buy points) w/ weapon finesse. Given a lack of hit points, I didn't want to lower CO. Given skills and the char concept, I didn't want to lower IN and give up ~ 40 skill points.
+2 would make +35 w/ regular weapon, so it's definitely worthwhile if you choose to go that route.
Looks fun. What was the reason for longsword as a choice weapon? Is it just because of good chances to get a magical one? I only ask because you get a slightly higher damage output with a greatsword or heavy flail with the same threat range.
Quote: Posted 07/13/04 17:23:59 (GMT) -- Emrill
Looks fun. What was the reason for longsword as a choice weapon? Is it just because of good chances to get a magical one? I only ask because you get a slightly higher damage output with a greatsword or heavy flail with the same threat range.
He chose longsword because he does not have martial proficiency. He however does have elf proficiency which allows you to use rapiers or longswords which is why he also mentions rapiers in his build. Personally I prefer rapiers to longswords, but longswords are more easily found in single player.
I was going to use rapier until I couldn't use Keen Edge on it. Either way, I believe (and am probably wrong) that your 15-20 on your critical (rapier + imp critical, longsword + imp critical + keen edge).
Longsword does slightly better damage, but you're 15-20 is limited to how many times you can cast Keen Edge (1x w. this build). From that perspective, rapier is the better weapon.
Guess I got hung up on using Keen Edge.
Ahh there are plenty of keen rapiers in NWN anyways, so I would tend to go that way. Thanks for the catch evo. I totally missed he didn't have a martial weapon class.
When I update, I will switch to rapier. As I look at it now, that makes more sense. Thanks.
Herbie Shimmer Game Owner NWN NWN: SoU NWN: HotU SW: KotOR PC
Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posted: Tuesday, 13 July 2004 02:31PM Quote: Posted 07/13/04 03:00:42 (GMT) by jjellison
I also posted this on epic characters. . .
Dazzling Dervish (Bard 8/RDD 10/Shadowdancer 22)
Elf / Neutral Good
Str 14, ends 26 Dex 19, ends 30 Con 8, ends 10 Wis 8 Int 12, ends 14 Wis 13, ends 15
Feats: Lvl 1: Dodge Lvl 3: Weapon Focus: Longsword (once Keen Edge is fixed I would take Rapier) Lvl 6: Power Attack Lvl 9: Cleave Lvl 12: Improved Critical: Longsword Lvl 15: Mobility Lvl 18: Great Cleave Lvl 21: Great Dexterity I Lvl 24: Great Dexterity II Lvl 27: Great Dexterity III Lvl 30: Great Strength I Lvl 31: Epic Dodge Lvl 33: Overwhelming Critical: Longsword Lvl 34: Self-Concealment I Lvl 36: Self-Concealment II Lvl 39: Devastating Critical: Longsword Lvl 40: Self-Concealment III
That's a damn good effort for a first build, I like your style! It kind of reminds me of a Shadowdancer version of the Bard 8 / RDD 10 / PM 22. There's a few things you could change to make it even better though. Here's how I'd do it:
Elf, True Neutral Str 16 Dex 19 Con 8 Wis 8 Int 10 Cha 11 Basically all I've done here is add to Strength by leaving out some Int and Cha. The Int bonus from RDD gives you all the skill points you'll ever need so you can safely start at 10. You can only ever cast 3rd level Bard spells so finishing with 13 Cha is totally acceptable. Starting with 16 Strength should save you a feat or two, since you don't have to get Great Attribute feats so much later. Plus, your original build would only finish on 25 Strength, not 26. (14 + 8 RDD + 2 from levels + 1 Great Strength = 25)
I would keep the pre-epic level progression the same too, although it doesn't do wonders for your BAB, there's little alternative. At level 20 the Dervish will be 6 Bard / 10 RDD / 4 SD, which is cool.
But here's what I'd do differently. First of all, I'd make sure to take level 40 as Bard 8. The Bard gets all the skills this character needs as class skills so it would be better to max out as many of them as possible. I'm thinking Discipline, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently and Spellcraft as necessary for this character, with 14 ranks in Perform to get the level 8 Bard song bonuses. Secondly I'd go for Dev Crit before Self Concealment. After all, the Dervish has 24 Strength and 24 Dex on level 20, and it's easier to go from 24 Strength to 25 Strength than from 24 Dex to 30 Dex. So here's my post-20 level progression: 21 - SD 5 - Overwhelming Critical 24 - SD 8 - Strength +1, Devastating Critical 27 - SD 11 - Great Dex 1 28 - SD 12 - Dex +1 (Dex->26) 29 - SD 13 - Epic Dodge 30 - SD 14 - Great Dex 2 32 - SD 16 - Dex +1 (Dex->28), Epic Shadowlord 33 - Bard 7 - Great Dex 3 36 - SD 19 - Dex +1 (Dex->30), Self Concealment 1, Self Concealment 2 39 - SD 22 - Self Concealment 3, Self Concealment 4 40 - Bard 8 - Strength +1 (Str->26), max out skills
Doing it that way gives you an extra rank of Self Concealment, which will come in handy. One more thing I noticed, you're taking Dodge and Mobility, which are two feats that seem kind of pointless. This character would get more out of Toughness than Mobility. With 40 Tumble and not casting spells in battle (the Dervish doesn't get any worth casting in battle) you aren't going to be faced with too many attacks of opportunity, so Mobility's out straight away. Possibly you could trade Dodge for Weapon Finesse and use a rapier, but you'd be missing out on Keen Edge as you pointed out. I'm not sure that's going to be fixed either, it seems like Bioware intended to only work on slashing weapons. Using Weapon Finesse and a rapier would net the Dervish +2 to his BAB though, which could be worth it.
Let me know if I helped, I'll get a nice warm glow if I have.
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jjellison Game Owner NWN NWN: SoU NWN: HotU
Joined: 05 Jul 2004 Posted: Tuesday, 13 July 2004 06:23PM Thanks for the help and comments. I like how the progression after 20 is laid out. I did mine trying to move up getting Dex 30 earlier in levels, so I could use the SD epic feats for Self-Conceal and save more of the other feats to build in other options. By taking Dev Crit, etc., early you limit what you can do with the SD epic feats (earlier you get 30 DX, more Self-Conceal you can take). At least, that was the theory. . . and I'm not a big fan of epic shadowlord -- he's a good distraction, but not all that helpful otherwise.
Dodge and Mobility are necessary for SDancer, Dodge for Epic Dodge. Also, I would take Epic Weapon Focus instead of Weapon Finesse if I had any extra feats. It's a matter of personal preference. It just feels like it would fit better with the overall build and both are +2.
Thanks again. You should be feeling that warm glow . . .
Edited By griphook on 07/18/04 12:01
Something you might want to consider is a Bard 17/Rdd 10/SD 13. With that you'd gain a very powerful bard song with an extra 5 ac, some useful spells and the only thing you'd lose is self concealment 4 which is easily replaced by imp invisibility which though dispellable gives you the extra 10% chance they'll miss. You could put 1 less point into dex and put 3 more into chr to gain access to lvl 6 spells with bard.
I believe the character would lose 3 feats (SD 22 -> SD 13). I had initially thought about doing more levels of Bard, but I thought my level would low versus others who wield dispel magic and have the effects stripped quickly.
You are correct though -- the character could use a higher attack. The +33 is the same as some of the other epic characters (Undead Lord or Damage Adept both have same +33), but still seems low to me for some types of game play.
Herbie Shimmer Game Owner NWN NWN: SoU NWN: HotU SW: KotOR PC
Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posted: Saturday, 17 July 2004 04:07PM Quote: Posted 07/13/04 17:23:22 (GMT) by jjellison
Thanks for the help and comments. I like how the progression after 20 is laid out. I did mine trying to move up getting Dex 30 earlier in levels, so I could use the SD epic feats for Self-Conceal and save more of the other feats to build in other options. By taking Dev Crit, etc., early you limit what you can do with the SD epic feats (earlier you get 30 DX, more Self-Conceal you can take). At least, that was the theory. . . and I'm not a big fan of epic shadowlord -- he's a good distraction, but not all that helpful otherwise.
Dodge and Mobility are necessary for SDancer, Dodge for Epic Dodge. Also, I would take Epic Weapon Focus instead of Weapon Finesse if I had any extra feats. It's a matter of personal preference. It just feels like it would fit better with the overall build and both are +2.
Thanks again. You should be feeling that warm glow . . .
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Yeah at the time I wrote that, I forgot that Dodge and Mobility were SD pre-reqs, silly of me.
But while I was making the build myself, I realised that there actually is a way to get Self Concealment 5 with this character. You've probably worked it out yourself by now, it basically switches round the order of the Great Dex and Critical feats so you can change Epic Shadowlord for Self Concealment, but I thought I'd post it for the sake of optimisation. It means that he doesn't get Dev Crit til quite late on but I guess if you're insta-levelling him that won't make much difference. Once again I left his pre-epic progression the same, so I'll just list his progression from level 21 onwards.
He doesn't gain much power during levels 21-30, but as soon as he gets Dev Crit he's awesome. It's not just the Dev Crit -> HiPS -> Dev Crit strategy. If the opponents are immune to criticals, he's not totally powerless. Self Concealment 5 and Epic Dodge give him the ability to last a while in melee even with poor hit points. If he's up against one powerful foe who isn't vulnerable to criticals, he can stun them for 5 rounds with Shadow Daze. It has a DC of 43 with this character, which is actually higher than his Dev Crit DC.
I don't think it's possible to get Self Concealment 5 and Dev Crit if you use Rogue levels instead of Shadowdancer levels. Although you can get bonus feats on Rogue levels 10, 13, 16 and 19, you'll have to spend two of those on Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion, in order to get Epic Dodge and Self Concealment. The sneaks wouldn't really be that effective - anything immune to crits is generally immune to sneaks too, and anything vulnerable to crits isn't going to last long against his Dev Crit anyway.
Do I get another nice warm glow?
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syrath1001 Game Owner NWN NWN: SoU NWN: HotU
Joined: 21 Mar 2004 Posted: Saturday, 17 July 2004 04:23PM
Now that is a very nice tweak to a build,
Dev Crit, Epic dodge and SC 5 in the one build would make a pretty tough person to begin with never mind the other advantages.