Race: Elf
Stats: str 12 dex 18 con 12 int 16 wis 8 cha 8
skillpoints: Hide, Move silently, UMD, tumble, search, disable trap, discipline, spellcraft + concentration (wiz levels) plus appraise/persuade/lore at your leisure.

lvl 1 R1: Ambidexterity
lvl 2 R1/F1: Weapon finesse
lvl 3 R1/F2: WP exotic, WF: kukri
lvl 4 R2/F2:
lvl 5 R2/F3:
lvl 6 R3/F3: TWF
lvl 7 R3/F4: WS: kukri
lvl 8 R4/F4:
lvl 9 R4/F5: Dodge
lvl 10 R5/F5:
lvl 11 R5/F6: Impr TWF
lvl 12 R6/F6: Impr crit: kukri
lvl 13 R6/F7:
lvl 14 R7/F7:
lvl 15 R7/F8: knockdown, impr knockdown
lvl 16 R8/F8:
lvl 17 R9/F8:
lvl 18 R10/F8: defensive roll
lvl 19 R10/F9:
lvl 20 R10/F9/W1:
lvl 21 R10/F10/W1: EWF: kukri, EWS: kukri
lvl 22 R10/F10/W2:
lvl 23 R10/F10/W3:
lvl 24 R10/F10/W4: great dex
lvl 25 R10/F10/W5: great int
lvl 26 R10/F10/W6:
lvl 27 R11/F10/W6: epic dodge
lvl 28 R11/F10/W7:
lvl 29 R11/F10/W8:
lvl 30 R11/F10/W9: great dex
lvl 31 R11/F10/W10: great int
lvl 32 R11/F10/W11:
lvl 33 R11/F10/W12: great dex
lvl 34 R11/F10/W13:
lvl 35 R11/F10/W14:
lvl 36 R11/F10/W15: great dex, great int
lvl 37 R11/F10/W16:
lvl 38 R11/F10/W17: max out spellcraft/concentration
lvl 39 R11/F11/W17: great dex, max out discipline
lvl 40 R12/F11/W17: max out tumble, UMD + your choice

ending stats: str 12 dex 33 (+10 levels +5 feats) con 12 int 19 (+3 feats) wis 8 cha 8.
Hps: 290 with max rolls.
BAB: 26, 6 attacks per round +11 AB from dex without eq or buffs.
AC: 29 naked (+11 dex +8 tumble) no buffs (+1 dodge but it doesn't show)

very sneaky, decent bs, impr knockdown, lvl 9 spells.

So what do you think? plz help me tweak this build, it's meant to be playable all the way 1-40 especially in SoU and HoTU solo playing. And I will not lower str because I like being able to carry stuff around plus it's +1 dam throughout the game

nothing implied toward the versatile kensai epic build, but I think rogue/fighter/wizard is a whole lot more versatile than rogue/WM/wizard... I've seen a topic or 2 about it too.

Happy gaming

Edited By Cinnabar Din on 02/27/08 20:15

Instead of that last great dex which does nothing for you, you should get an epic spell which should be available to you. thankz, I could prolly put in epic warding or epic mage armor which are the only worthwhile IMHO, maybe epic mage armor to make the char pretty much unhittable together with epic dodge and buffs...

my first thought was just to do as many great dex as possible for perm AC and AB bonus, and even an odd number helps when u have buffs and eq adding to stats, but I guess EMA would prove an even bigger benefit.

and I haven't really given all that much thought into the last 10 or so levels, they are just there to add spellcaster levels, the playability (is that a word?) comes with F/R combo, especially with level 2 buffs of course, and maybe a true strike or 2

happy gaming What if you drop two fighter levels early and work the levels so that you end at 13 rogue/10 fighter/17 wiz. That will get you another d6 backstab, as well as a rogue bonus feat. well emrill I've thought about that and it would make it stronger at level 40, but it would make it much harder to get there with the inevitable exp penalties that would bring.

if I wasn't concerned about exp penalties I would prolly be F9/R11 at 20 to get +1 BAB, but that would give me exp penalty from level 27-39 (epic dodge at 27) and that just isn't worth it IMHO, or even worse making it impossible for me to get EWS until level 39 (discipline maxxed out).

I am however pondering leaving out discipline totally and instead rely on my high AC plus epic dodge to keep me on my feet, that would make it possible to leave fighter at 10 get rogue to 13 for the extra feat and 1d6 bs dmg and still be able to get to 17 wiz for level 9 spells, that would however either make it impossible to get an epic spell (wiz levels too late) or force me to play with exp penalty from 27-40 (doable depending on WHERE u do the leveling).

all in all I think what I chose is a pretty good solution since it enables me to get to 40 with level 9 spells 1 epic spell epic dodge 6 attacks per round and only 1 level at exp penalty.

plz keep on commenting though, I'm really not that good a builder yet

happy gaming
Quote: Posted 07/18/04 02:34:55 (GMT) -- evo_dragon

Instead of that last great dex which does nothing for you, you should get an epic spell which should be available to you.

Don't you have to have epic levels in WIZ to get the Epic Spells?
_________________
"Tis no man, 'tis a remorseless EATING machine..." No you just need to be an epic character and be of a level (dont need 19 in the stat) able to cast 9th level spells. I'm thinking of trading the level 30 great dex for armour skin and trading level 38 great dex for epic warding, because I'm thinking that with this AC nothing will ever crit anyway, but when archers with massive AB actually land a hit it would be nice if they did 0 dmg.

also thinking of switching to shortsword to free a feat for toughness, but I don't know if that's a tradeoff I care to make, dmg x 2 is pretty nice with decent kukris and EWS.

I could switch knockdown/impr knockdown for toughness/blind-fight, but knockdown really allows me to land som serious bs dmg with 6 attacks per round and pretty decent AB...

otherwise I'm really pleased the way this build turned out, plz post some more ideas for improvement (and pure tradeoffs) though.

happy gaming I was under the impression that rogue got improved evasion for free at level 10, since it is a pre-req for epic dodge it would be very bad should that be a false assumption. could someone please tell me what's true? I can ill afford to trust the game manual again since it always seems to be wrong concerning the non too obvious issues...

if impr. evasion isn't a free feat at level 10 for rogue I will have to redo my whole build, so please answer as swiftly as possibly since tomorrow is my day off and I plan to play at least to level 7-8.

happy gaming Rogue gets bonus feats at level 10, 13, 16, 19 which they can use to get imp evasion and defensive roll among others. You don't automatically get those feats you must spend a rogue bonus feat on them. if I am level 10 rogue does that enable me to pick a rogue bonus feat (imr evasion or defensive roll) with a mundane feat? like with my build on level 18, could I pick both improved evasion AND defensive roll? one with rogue bonus feat and the other with normal feat? and is it possible to pick a rogue bonus feat pre-epic or post-epic with a normal feat even when I am not leveling with rogue?
Quote: Posted 07/25/04 03:49:44 (GMT) -- Diesel, Vin Diesel

if I am level 10 rogue does that enable me to pick a rogue bonus feat (imr evasion or defensive roll) with a mundane feat? like with my build on level 18, could I pick both improved evasion AND defensive roll? one with rogue bonus feat and the other with normal feat? and is it possible to pick a rogue bonus feat pre-epic or post-epic with a normal feat even when I am not leveling with rogue?

no, no, no, no. Sorry ooops, so much for trying on a new type of build (never had epic dodge before). could someone please try to salvage this build for me then? I guess I could add blind-fight or toughness at 18, but I would have to spend epic feats to make amends about gaining epic dodge. is it enough if I take defensive roll and improved evasion with rogue bonus feats and take epic dodge with an ordinary epic feat? in that case I would have to accept going pre-epic F7/R12/W1, to get EWF and EWS at 21 then defensive roll at 27 maxing tumble to 30, level wiz all the way and gaining epic dodge at 30 with epic feat... this will leave me with a ***load of exp penalty and a final level distribution of F9/R14/W17 to max out discipline, tumble, UMD. I will end up with pretty much what I had earlier but with a char a lot harder to get to 40 (exp penalty kicks in at level 16 never to go away).

please try to make a build with less exp penalty still keeping what I made this build for: 6 attacks per round, epic dodge, level 9 spells, sky high AC (tumble + dex + spells), improved knockdown, decent melee ability, keeping it very playable levels 1-40 (not a "whirling death" type of char).

was it in IWD2 that rogue got improved evasion for free at level 10? or where did I get that from?

happy gaming
Quote: Posted 07/25/04 14:48:28 (GMT) -- Diesel, Vin Diesel

please try to make a build with less exp penalty still keeping what I made this build for: 6 attacks per round, epic dodge, level 9 spells, sky high AC (tumble + dex + spells), improved knockdown, decent melee ability, keeping it very playable levels 1-40 (not a "whirling death" type of char).

happy gaming

Here is something I just threw together

Wiz 17/SD 10/ Fighter 13

Dwarf
Stats
str 12
dex 16
con 16
int 16
wis 8
chr 6

11 Fighter
6 Wiz
3 SD

10 Wiz
7 SD
1 Wiz
1 Fighter

feats
1 Exotic Wp Proficiency, WF Kukri
2 TWF
3 Ambi
4 Dodge
6 Mobility, Toughness
8 WP Spec Kukri
9 Imp Crit Kukri
10 Knockdown
12 Max Spell
15 Combat Casting
16 Extend Spell
18 Imp TWF
21 EP WF Kukri
24 Armor Skin, Gr Int 1
27 Gr Int 2
29 Gr Int 3
30 Imp Combat Casting
33 Gr Dex 1
36 Gr Dex 2
39 Epic Dodge
40 EWS Kukri

Ending Stats
str 12
dex 28
con 16
int 19
wis 8
chr 6

Skills - 273
43 Disc
42 Conc
40 Spellcraft
41 Move Silent
41 Hide
40 Tumble
+ 23 crossclassing

HP -
10 * 13 = 130
8 * 10 = 80
4 * 17 = 68
40 * 3 = 120
+40
= 438 (very high for a caster/dex char)

You can sneak into a room, bust it out with some maximized IGMS, then whip out the dual kukris and lay waste to whatever remains. Whenever you have any problems just HIPS and sneak away.

This char seems hellishly tough with epic dodge, high ac, 50% concealment, weapon specialization/flame weapon, lvl 9 spells, 7 attacks/round, decent hp and high hide/move silently.

Enjoy

Edited By evo_dragon on 07/25/04 19:27

Hmmm I forgot weapon finesse, should probally get that . Replace toughness with weapon finesse I guess. thankz evo_dragon, this build looks pretty nice, but I would definately go with Elf for dex bonus, jumble a lot of feats around to make it more viable in the early levels (EWS, finesse, epic dodge ASAP), prolly leave out extend altogether and take wiz bonus feats as great int leaving the normal epic ones for better ones (great dex).

but this build really isn't a good enough thief... so I'm thinking of leaving out epic dodge aiming for:
pre-epic F5/R7/W8

lvl 1 R1 ambidexterity
lvl 2 F1/R1 weapon finesse
lvl 3 F2/R1 exotic WP, WF kukri
lvl 4 F2/R2 + dex
lvl 5 F3/R2
lvl 6 F3/R3 TWF
lvl 7 F4/R3 WS kukri
lvl 8 F4/R4 + dex
lvl 9 F5/R4 improved TWF
lvl 10 F5/R4/W1
lvl 11 F5/R4/W2
lvl 12 F5/R5/W2 improved crit + dex
lvl 13 F5/R5/W3
lvl 14 F5/R5/W4
lvl 15 F5/R5/W5 blind-fight, maximize (W)
lvl 16 F5/R5/W6 + dex
lvl 17 F5/R6/W6
lvl 18 F5/R6/W7 toughness
lvl 19 F5/R6/W8
lvl 20 F5/R7/W8 + dex

BAB 14 = 5 attacks per round, 23 dex 16 int

lvl 21 F6/R7/W8 EWF, EWS
lvl 22 F6/R7/W9
lvl 23 F6/R7/W10 great int (W)
lvl 24 F6/R7/W11 armour skin + dex
lvl 25 F6/R7/W12
lvl 26 F6/R7/W13
lvl 27 F6/R7/W14 feat
lvl 28 F6/R7/W15 great int (W) + int
lvl 29 F6/R7/W16
lvl 30 F6/R7/W17 feat
lvl 31 F6/R7/W18
lvl 32 F6/R7/W19 + dex
lvl 33 F7/R7/W19 feat
lvl 34 F7/R8/W19
lvl 35 F8/R8/W19 feat (F)
lvl 36 F9/R8/W19 feat + dex
lvl 37 F9/R9/W19
lvl 38 F9/R10/W19 feat (R)
lvl 39 F10/R10/W19 feat, feat (F)
lvl 40 F10/R10/W20 feat (W) + dex

27 dex 19 int (28 dex equals full plate mail + dex 12)

with the 9 feats left out I could take either metamagic feats, CC/improved CC, knockdown/improved knockdown, lots of great stats.

what do you think? only exp penalty at 1 level, 24 BAB, level 9 spells, thief skills.

I made this char with HoTU in mind (max level 28). with epic char building in mind I would of course have gone F8/R8/W4 pre-epic to get +2 BAB, ending F10/R13/W17 again

happy gaming That 14 BAB is SO close to the 15 you need for 6 attacks a round, I'd almost switch out some of your wiz levels to epic. Not quite sure which ones, though, I've never been great with leveling-structures for good pre-epic BAB. I've decided that the best thing I can do to salvage this char would probably be to go for F7/R12/W1 pre-epic and simply swollow that unavoidable exp penalty from level 16-40.

the following levels would be F at 21 for EWF and EWS, R at 22 for defensive roll, wiz all the way except for last 2 levels which go into R and F to max out their skills.

ending F9/R14/W17 isn't the best, but I do want epic dodge and EWS ASAP, and concerning the exp penalty let's not make this char any harder to level than it already is

I can take epic dodge with an epic feat can't I? in that case I should be able to take it at level 30 (which is 3 levels later but can't be helped).

happy gaming typo on my part, R level 13 is on total level 27 (to get tumble to 30).

total skill points will be:
129 from int
112 from Rogue
34 from Wiz
18 from Fighter
293 total I put them in:
concentration 43
discipline 43 (do I need it?)
spellcraft 40
UMD 40
tumble 40
search 20
disable trap 20
persuade 20
lore 20
appraise 7 (good with some extra gold in the beginning)

now I'm satisfied and will actually play it

happy gaming Final draft (hopefully):

Elf 12 str 18 dex 12 con 16 int 8 wis 8 cha, all bumps into dex.

lvl 1 R1 ambidexterity
lvl 2 R1/F1 weapon finesse (F)
lvl 3 R1/F2 weapon prof: exotic, WF: kukri (F)
lvl 4 R2/F2
lvl 5 R2/F3
lvl 6 R3/F3 TWF
lvl 7 R3/F4 WS: kukri (F)
lvl 8 R4/F4
lvl 9 R4/F5 knockdown
lvl 10 R5/F5
lvl 11 R5/F6 improved TWF (F)
lvl 12 R6/F6 improved crit: kukri
lvl 13 R6/F7
lvl 14 R7/F7
lvl 15 R8/F7 improved knockdown
lvl 16 R9/F7
lvl 17 R10/F7 improved evasion (R)
lvl 18 R11/F7 dodge
lvl 19 R12/F7
lvl 20 R12/F7/W1

lvl 21 R12/F8/W1 EWF: kukri, EWS: kukri (F)
lvl 22 R12/F8/W2
lvl 23 R12/F8/W3
lvl 24 R12/F8/W4 great dex
lvl 25 R12/F8/W5 great int (W)
lvl 26 R12/F8/W6
lvl 27 R13/F8/W6 great dex, defensive roll (R)
lvl 28 R13/F8/W7
lvl 29 R13/F8/W8
lvl 30 R13/F8/W9 epic dodge
lvl 31 R13/F8/W10 great int (W)
lvl 32 R13/F8/W11
lvl 33 R13/F8/W12 combat cast
lvl 34 R13/F8/W13
lvl 35 R13/F8/W14
lvl 36 R13/F8/W15 improved combat cast, great int (W)
lvl 37 R13/F8/W16
lvl 38 R13/F8/W17
lvl 39 R14/F8/W17 maximize spell
lvl 40 R14/F9/W17

final stats: 12 str 30 dex 12 con 19 int 8 wis 8 cha
skillpoints: see previous post

pros: level 9 arcane spells, high AC, epic dodge, improved knockdown, very versatile.

cons: low hp 264 with max rolls, low saves... solution is to buff before fights

I haven't tested this build yet, but if a feat doesn't meet the prereqs just switch it with another one further down the list. and please tell me epic dodge can be taken with an epic feat with a non-rogue class... if not, take it at level 39... and if that isn't possible either, just skip it altogether.

tweaking: you can always leave the 2 great dex feats out or remove CC (not recommended), the feats this char needs most are probably toughness and blind-fight.

happy gaming *sigh* I shouldn't post when I'm this tired.

replace both great dex with natural armor and toughness to get a much more viable char (u get enough dex for epic dodge at 30 anyway). build finishes with 28 dex which is kind of low for a dex build, but the spells at your disposal should more than make up for it.

happy gaming What about toying with the levels a bit seeing as you have an XP penalty anyways going. Take a wiz level (or two) pre epic and then drop back a fighter levels. Maybe take one less rogue level in epic levels and end with 13 rogue/8 fighter/19 wizard. Level 14 rogue really doesn't do anything and the same with level 9 fighter. true 9 fighter and 14 rogue doesn't do much for this build except maxing out skillpoints, but then my reason for taking them is that I want fighter 8 and rogue 13 that much sooner, as part of my idea with this char was making it playable 1-40, I need epic dodge and EWF EWS ASAP. plus I really don't suffer by only having 17 wiz levels instead of 19 (is it one level 9 casting per day?).

the best tweak IMHO would be F10/R13/W17 but that would make it impossible to get epic dodge before level 39, it would even get me a possible BAB of 17. but once again: I want this build to be playable all the way.

thankz for the input though.

happy gaming I haven't been reading every post about this build, but I just have a suggestion. If you want to use it is up to you.

If you are taking fighter mainly for Weapon Specialization... you can reduce the amount of fighter taken to six levels.

It is kind of tricky, but it is doable. If you want to do it this way, you will want to switch first level class with Fighter class, then after that take two more levels of fighter. Then when you take fourth level, make sure it is when you take feat for overall build, this way you get two feats at the same time.

Then take one more at some point. Then don't take another fighter class until you hit level 21. Once you get to that level, you will have two feat selections. Take both Epic Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Specialization.

Although, you can get EWS with less fighter levels... But the way I did it is preferable.

Levels that you should take fighter class at:

Lvl: 1-3 Fighter class in this levels.
Lvl: 4-5 Any class you want in this levels.
Lvl: 6 Fighter class in this level.
Lvl: 7-8 Any class you want in this levels.
Lvl: 9 Fighter class and stop taking Fighter class for now.
Lvl: 10-20 Any class you want in this levels.
Lvl: 21 the last fighter class you will take in this level.
Lvl: 22 and beyond, whichever classes you want.

I hope this helps you to be able to take more classes of either rogue or wizard. I believe if you did this, you would be able to get epic spells, but as I said, I have not read all of the posts.

Anuis if I only take 5 fighter levels pre-epic I have to go rogue 15 to still get 16 BAB, I suppose I could do that... but not too thrilled about losing one feat. it's very doable though, thankz

will go for F7/R12/W1 myself though I think. want to keep fighter at lvl 9 for the extra feat I think, trade both great dex for natural armour and toughness trade both CC for blind-fight and maximize, trade maximize (lvl 39) for epic warding.

very low on feats with this build as it is...

still a very good suggestion if u don't want knockdown.

happy gaming Nah do'nt do that with rogue levels. Level 9 doesn't give a fighter a free feat though. Those come on even numbered levels (except for level 1). Same with rogue feats. You get he second bonus feat at 13 and sneak attacks come on odd numbered levels as well. Hence my suggestion.
Quote: Posted 07/27/04 04:27:34 (GMT) -- Diesel, Vin Diesel

if I only take 5 fighter levels pre-epic I have to go rogue 15 to still get 16 BAB, I suppose I could do that... but not too thrilled about losing one feat. it's very doable though, thankz

will go for F7/R12/W1 myself though I think.

You don't get bonus feats at odd number of fighter levels. When you take five levels at pre-epic level, you will have ability to recieve bonus level at 21st level, enabling you to be able to get Epic Weapon Specialization. That is if you take all approrate feats in order to get that epic feat.

If you went for seven fighter pre-epic, you will want to end the overall build with eight fighter levels then. You have to do even number of fighter levels if you want to get bonus feats. I am not sure about Rogue, they have different number of levels in order to get bonus feat. The fighter is the one that has the least amount of levels required to get bonus feats.

Not sure if I am making sense about this.

Anuis The preepic rogue bonus feats come at 10, 13, 16, and 19. After that I believe its on every third level (23, 26, 29...), but not 100% positive. The HotU book says a rogue gets a bonus feat every 4 levels (24, 28, etc.) However, the book's commonly wrong so you'd have to test it out. I'm perfectly aware that fighter gets bonus feat on every even level and rogue gets it on 10 13 16 19, two of my goals are epic dodge and one epic spell, I can't pick an epic spell before level 39 cuz I can't be level 17 wiz before that and not have a crippled BAB, that means I have to pick epic dodge before level 39 feat, which forces me to pick a rogue level in between 27 and 35 to get tumble past 30 which is a pre-req for tumble. this means I have to get rogue level 13 between 27 and 35 to be able to pick epic dodge before 39, which will force me to pick a rogue level that gives me squat just to max out on skillpoints at level 37 or after.

and when I almost HAVE to be rogue level 14 I can choose to go 17 or 18 wiz levels to still manage a BAB of 16 pre-epic, I felt 17 was as good as 18 therefor I chose F9/R14/W17.

I've pondered this build quite a lot and I think this is probably the most playable version. I have a made version that is better at level 40, but it gets EWS at 40, epic dodge at 39 and epic spell at 36, making for a much harder build to play, ending F8/R13/W19... and frankly I think many epic builds aren't meant to be played, mine is.

happy gaming epic feats in order:
lvl 21 EWF, EWS (F)
lvl 24 natural armour
lvl 27 maximize spell, defensive roll (R)
lvl 30 epic dodge
lvl 33 CC
lvl 36 improved CC
lvl 39 epic warding (to not take dmg from high AB archers)

+ 3 x great int from wiz bonus feats.

maximize can be traded for toughness... but maximized endurance can do wonders for your hp

happy gaming