*You'll have 36 extra skill points, which I chose to put into Lore, but you could take whatever you feel suits. (I considered Taunt, but went Lore instead)
1) ROGUE Power Attack/Expertise 2) SOR 3) SOR Improved Expertise 4) SOR 5) SOR 6) SOR Extend Spell 7) SOR 8 )SOR 9) SOR Empower Spell 10)SOR 11)SOR 12)SOR Combat Casting 13)SOR 14)SOR 15)SOR Still Spell 16)SOR 17)SOR 18 )SOR Cleave 19)BG 20)BG 21)SOR Epic Skill Focus: Discipline 22)SOR 23)SOR 24)SOR Auto Still Spell I 25)ROGUE 26)SOR 27)SOR Auto Still Spell II & III 28 )SOR 29)SOR 30)SOR GRT CHA I/Epic Mage Armor 31)SOR 32)SOR 33)SOR GRT CHA II/Epic Warding 34)SOR 35)SOR 36)SOR Maximize Spell*/Improved Combat Casting 37)SOR 38 )ROGUE 39)BG Divine Shield 40)SOR
*I chose Max, but you could choose anything you feel would be best.
Final Skills (modified):
Concentration: 43 (45) Discipline: 42 (54) Hide: 5 (prereq for BG) Spellcraft: 43 (45 - good for +9 to saves vs spells) Tumble: 40 UMD: 41 (50) Lore: 36 (38)
On your Rogue levels, take your UMD and Tumble to max, stopping Tumble at 40.
On BG levels, you'll max Discipline and Concentration.
SOR levels you max Concentration and Spellcraft.
Saves:
FORT: 29 REFLEX: 26 WILL: 28
For spells, try to choose anything that doesn't allow a save, as you're not focussed in any schools of magic. Also, defensive spells are a must.
With only 34 levels of SOR, you may want to pick up a Spell Pen. feat to help beat SR, possibly in place of Maximize Spell.
Thoughts? Comments? _________________ "Tis no man, 'tis a remorseless EATING machine..."
Edited By griphook on 06/06/05 20:53
sorry but exactly what is this build supposed to do that the exalted sorceress cannot do? u have 2 attacks per round, so no more melee capability, and 3 fewer caster levels? what is this build designed to excel at? if it's casting, there are a lot of excellent caster builds out there.
sorry mate, looks like a nice build and all, but I just don't understand what u want to do with it.
happy gaming
Quote: Posted 07/18/04 21:56:27 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Okay, first kick at the can (a tip of the hat and a big "Thank you" to cdaulepp for advice on a few points):
*You'll have 36 extra skill points, which I chose to put into Lore, but you could take whatever you feel suits. (I considered Taunt, but went Lore instead)
1) ROGUE Power Attack/Expertise 2) SOR 3) SOR Improved Expertise 4) SOR 5) SOR 6) SOR Extend Spell 7) SOR 8 )SOR 9) SOR Empower Spell 10)SOR 11)SOR 12)SOR Combat Casting 13)SOR 14)SOR 15)SOR Still Spell 16)SOR 17)SOR 18 )SOR Cleave 19)BG 20)BG 21)SOR Epic Skill Focus: Discipline 22)SOR 23)SOR 24)SOR Auto Still Spell I 25)ROGUE 26)SOR 27)SOR Auto Still Spell II & III 28 )SOR 29)SOR 30)SOR GRT CHA I/Epic Mage Armor 31)SOR 32)SOR 33)SOR GRT CHA II/Epic Warding 34)SOR 35)SOR 36)SOR Maximize Spell*/Improved Combat Casting 37)SOR 38 )ROGUE 39)BG Divine Shield 40)SOR
*I chose Max, but you could choose anything you feel would be best.
Final Skills (modified):
Concentration: 43 (45) Discipline: 42 (54) Hide: 5 (prereq for BG) Spellcraft: 43 (45 - good for +9 to saves vs spells) Tumble: 40 UMD: 41 (50) Lore: 36 (38)
On your Rogue levels, take your UMD and Tumble to max, stopping Tumble at 40.
On BG levels, you'll max Discipline and Concentration.
SOR levels you max Concentration and Spellcraft.
Saves:
FORT: 29 REFLEX: 26 WILL: 28
For spells, try to choose anything that doesn't allow a save, as you're not focussed in any schools of magic. Also, defensive spells are a must.
With only 34 levels of SOR, you may want to pick up a Spell Pen. feat to help beat SR, possibly in place of Maximize Spell.
Thoughts? Comments?
Just wanted to point out something... If you took Rogue instead of Sorceror at the last level, you would be able to max out the tumble skill and couple other rogue abilities. By doing that, you would be able to raise the AC if you put in more skill points into tumble.
In addition to that, if you dropped couple levels of sorceror, you would be able to raise the max tumble to 45, giving you another +1 to the AC.
sorry but exactly what is this build supposed to do that the exalted sorceress cannot do? u have 2 attacks per round, so no more melee capability, and 3 fewer caster levels? what is this build designed to excel at? if it's casting, there are a lot of excellent caster builds out there.
sorry mate, looks like a nice build and all, but I just don't understand what u want to do with it.
happy gaming
Not really sure how to answer that. What is any build supposed to do? This one is designed as an evil spellcaster that can get into the thick of it and handle himself without getting knocked down and toasted. Not a melee fighter, but capable of taking out meleers if need be.
Sure there are a lot of excellent caster builds. There are lots of excellent melee and stealth builds as well. Does that mean no one is supposed to post a decent melee or stealth build anymore? If you can't see the merits of this build, then try another one.
It's a concept I've had for some time but just couldn't seem to get worked out that well. When the Exalted Sorceress came out, I saw that it was basically the good version of the build I was trying for, so I asked cdaulepp to help me tweak it a bit. No, it's not as effective as the Exalted Sorceress, but it's a pretty decent build, I think. The reason it is less effective is because it's an evil build and the BG does not get the save bonus at the same level as Pally, so you must expend more levels on classes other than SOR.
You could also go Monk with this build instead of Rogue, but I wanted UMD as well, just for a change - and also because I'm not a fan of the Monk class anyway. _________________ "Tis no man, 'tis a remorseless EATING machine..."
Quote: Posted 07/19/04 00:15:33 (GMT) -- Anuis
Just wanted to point out something... If you took Rogue instead of Sorceror at the last level, you would be able to max out the tumble skill and couple other rogue abilities. By doing that, you would be able to raise the AC if you put in more skill points into tumble.
Basically, it is maxed. The highest you could get is 43 ranks, and the game does not take into account the modifier to your skill with respect to AC bonus. However, with the last level as SOR and being able to max Spellcraft to 43, it gives me 45 Spellcraft with the modifier - which the game does take into account with respect to saves vs spells.
Quote: In addition to that, if you dropped couple levels of sorceror, you would be able to raise the max tumble to 45, giving you another +1 to the AC.
You can't get 45 Tumble - see above.
Quote: And a question.. why three levels of blackguard?
Anuis
The concept is an evil character. I wanted BG for the boost to saves and the discipline skill, and wanted them early as well, so that's why 2 levels of BG (the saves boost doesn't kick in until BG level 2) I know I could get the same benefit with 1 level Pally, but I didn't want to do an alignment shift (Just feel it's a bit too cheesy). The 3rd level of BG is to max discipline, and the Divine Shield feat is an added bonus. _________________ "Tis no man, 'tis a remorseless EATING machine..."
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 07/19/04 01:42
I told you I thought it was a nice build, but I just didn't understand why it got posted so soon after exalted sorceress was released as epic build... cuz that's maybe the best caster that one can make, so basically any variation of it isn't quite as strong as the original. you could have just gone out and said that it was an evil version that detested monks (*woot* *woot*).
and divine shield is really nice, making for a nifty AC with buffs, auto-still spell, tumble and impr expertise (although I don't think it should be usable while casting). but with that high AC, why do you need discipline? is anything likely to hit you anyways?
I have the same question regarding my F/R/W, if the AC is high enough, is discipline worth it?
why the 3 levels of rogue? I think I would've skipped out on 1 making it first and last levels.
happy gaming
Quote: Posted 07/19/04 01:42:20 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din Basically, it is maxed. The highest you could get is 43 ranks, and the game does not take into account the modifier to your skill with respect to AC bonus. However, with the last level as SOR and being able to max Spellcraft to 43, it gives me 45 Spellcraft with the modifier - which the game does take into account with respect to saves vs spells.
Actually... you can get more than 40 if you use both skill focus. Skill Focus in pre-epic, and Epic Skill focus in epic levels.
Quote: You can't get 45 Tumble - see above.
You can get 45+ tumble. See above.
However, if you want to have max of 43, then all you need to do is to have +2 for the DEX modifier, which is 14 DEX. Not sure if that is right, but that will give you 45 tumble, it would give you advantage since it will save you from damage. And it would help with the low HP.
And the game does take into the account of the modifer regarding the AC. For every +1 you have, it adds one to the AC. You can find information regarding this anywhere in the search. If you had +4, it will add 4 to natural AC.
Please stop me if I am wrong, but the builds that I have done that is DEX based, always has the AC increased.
Quote: The concept is an evil character. I wanted BG for the boost to saves and the discipline skill, and wanted them early as well, so that's why 2 levels of BG (the saves boost doesn't kick in until BG level 2) I know I could get the same benefit with 1 level Pally, but I didn't want to do an alignment shift (Just feel it's a bit too cheesy). The 3rd level of BG is to max discipline, and the Divine Shield feat is an added bonus.
Would it be best if you added more blackguard class? It has poison feat that you can use, you add it to any weapon and you can try to poison somebody...
However... I recommend that you change the rogue class to shadowdancer if you can get that class. The only downside is that you lose 8 skill points for every levels that you take in rogue. But you get more feats out of shadowdancer if you took several levels in that... 10 in that class would be best. For example, if you took shadowdancer, you can get slippery mind and several other free feats that can help your character. I don't remember all of them right now, but they are good feats.
I told you I thought it was a nice build, but I just didn't understand why it got posted so soon after exalted sorceress was released as epic build... cuz that's maybe the best caster that one can make, so basically any variation of it isn't quite as strong as the original. you could have just gone out and said that it was an evil version that detested monks (*woot* *woot*).
The reason is that I was having trouble finalizing the build, but when the Ex SOR was posted, I said "Hey, maybe Christopher can help me out." - and he did.
Quote: and divine shield is really nice, making for a nifty AC with buffs, auto-still spell, tumble and impr expertise (although I don't think it should be usable while casting). but with that high AC, why do you need discipline? is anything likely to hit you anyways?
I have the same question regarding my F/R/W, if the AC is high enough, is discipline worth it?
A good point - but it only takes one hit to knock you on your butt and then you're toast, so for that reason I think it's worth it.
Quote: why the 3 levels of rogue? I think I would've skipped out on 1 making it first and last levels.
happy gaming
3 levels gives you Uncanny Dodge, which allows you to keep your Tumble AC even if flat-footed - otherwise you'd lose the Tumble (along with any DEX) bonus if you're flat-footed.. (This is one of the points cdaulepp brought to light) _________________ "Tis no man, 'tis a remorseless EATING machine..."
Quote: Posted 07/19/04 03:26:44 (GMT) -- Anuis
Actually... you can get more than 40 if you use both skill focus. Skill Focus in pre-epic, and Epic Skill focus in epic levels.
If this is the case, then I see your point, but from what I've been able to glean, only your base Tumble ranks count towards your AC bonus - and from looking at all the builds that stop putting points into Tumble at 40, I figured that was accurate information.
Quote: However, if you want to have max of 43, then all you need to do is to have +2 for the DEX modifier, which is 14 DEX. Not sure if that is right, but that will give you 45 tumble, it would give you advantage since it will save you from damage. And it would help with the low HP.
Again, if that's the way Tumble works, point taken. Only problem is: where do you get the 4 extra ability points to put into DEX? I need at least 13 STR for BG prereqs, I don't want to lower CHA, my INT is needed at 14 for skill points, my WIS can't be lowered, which only leaves CON. I figured the extra HPs and boost to concentration were better than the DEX modifier (especially since the build willeventually don full plate, which would cut the benefit down to +1 on AC. I thought that 80 HPs would outweigh +1 AC)
Quote: And the game does take into the account of the modifer regarding the AC. For every +1 you have, it adds one to the AC. You can find information regarding this anywhere in the search. If you had +4, it will add 4 to natural AC.
Please stop me if I am wrong, but the builds that I have done that is DEX based, always has the AC increased.
I wasn't disputing the fact that if you had (for example) 14 DEX, you would get +2 to your AC. What I meant was that if you had 43 ranks in Tumble and your modifier brought it up to 45, the bonus to your AC from Tumble would still only be +8, not +9 because the game does not give you an AC bonus for every 5 ranks in Tumble if they come from anything other than base ranks. I'm quite certain this is the case, which is why you see so many builds that have Tumble stop at 40 ranks. So, just as another example for edification: even if you had 43 base ranks in Tumble and 14 DEX (+2 modifier) and Epic Skill Focus:Tumble, your modified Tumble skill is 55, but your AC bonus is still only +8, not +11.
Quote: Would it be best if you added more blackguard class? It has poison feat that you can use, you add it to any weapon and you can try to poison somebody...
An interesting idea, but it would only weaken the power of the spellcasting even further against SR, and 34 was about as low as I wanted to go.
Quote: However... I recommend that you change the rogue class to shadowdancer if you can get that class. The only downside is that you lose 8 skill points for every levels that you take in rogue. But you get more feats out of shadowdancer if you took several levels in that... 10 in that class would be best. For example, if you took shadowdancer, you can get slippery mind and several other free feats that can help your character. I don't remember all of them right now, but they are good feats.
But that is your choice.
Anuis
Actually, you'd lose only 2 skill points for each SD level (as they get 6 per level), but I wanted UMD in the build, so that's why I opted for Rogue. SD also requires an investment in 2 other feats (Dodge, Mobility) and a substantial cost in cross class skills (you'd have to spend an extra 10 in Hide, 16 in MS, and 10 in Tumble just to qualify, and then you'd only get your first SD level at level 18 earliest) Also, more levels in SD would be the same as more levels in BG - you'd weaken your spellcasting power.
Other than that, SD looks to be an interesting option, as you can get both the Evasion and Uncanny Dodge feats with only 2 levels. Maybe another project with SD and SOR is in order... _________________ "Tis no man, 'tis a remorseless EATING machine..."
Skill focus doesn't add to tumble AC bonus. Also I see a few thing this build can do that the exalted sorceress can't. Finally It is a good caster build. I like it. Nothing fancy, but does a good job of being a strong in all departmenst character. Deisel, just because people post a build they like, doesn't mean it has to have a specific purpuse.
Quote: Posted 07/19/04 04:17:06 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din If this is the case, then I see your point, but from what I've been able to glean, only your base Tumble ranks count towards your AC bonus - and from looking at all the builds that stop putting points into Tumble at 40, I figured that was accurate information.
You are correct about that. I forgot about that. The base tumble ranks is what counts toward the AC bonus.
Quote: Again, if that's the way Tumble works, point taken. Only problem is: where do you get the 4 extra ability points to put into DEX? I need at least 13 STR for BG prereqs, I don't want to lower CHA, my INT is needed at 14 for skill points, my WIS can't be lowered, which only leaves CON. I figured the extra HPs and boost to concentration were better than the DEX modifier (especially since the build willeventually don full plate, which would cut the benefit down to +1 on AC. I thought that 80 HPs would outweigh +1 AC)
I was using +4 as a example. Sorry for the confusion on this part.
Quote: I wasn't disputing the fact that if you had (for example) 14 DEX, you would get +2 to your AC. What I meant was that if you had 43 ranks in Tumble and your modifier brought it up to 45, the bonus to your AC from Tumble would still only be +8, not +9 because the game does not give you an AC bonus for every 5 ranks in Tumble if they come from anything other than base ranks. I'm quite certain this is the case, which is why you see so many builds that have Tumble stop at 40 ranks. So, just as another example for edification: even if you had 43 base ranks in Tumble and 14 DEX (+2 modifier) and Epic Skill Focus:Tumble, your modified Tumble skill is 55, but your AC bonus is still only +8, not +11.
Yes.. you are correct about that. However, it would be benefitful if you had high tumble skill for your build since you are not melee based, it would be useful so you can avoid being hit by heavy hitters.
Quote: An interesting idea, but it would only weaken the power of the spellcasting even further against SR, and 34 was about as low as I wanted to go.
Yes, but if you have some rogue(or Shadowdancer) levels, you could have some uses of that ability.
Quote: Actually, you'd lose only 2 skill points for each SD level (as they get 6 per level), but I wanted UMD in the build, so that's why I opted for Rogue. SD also requires an investment in 2 other feats (Dodge, Mobility) and a substantial cost in cross class skills (you'd have to spend an extra 10 in Hide, 16 in MS, and 10 in Tumble just to qualify, and then you'd only get your first SD level at level 18 earliest) Also, more levels in SD would be the same as more levels in BG - you'd weaken your spellcasting power.
Other than that, SD looks to be an interesting option, as you can get both the Evasion and Uncanny Dodge feats with only 2 levels. Maybe another project with SD and SOR is in order...
I meant that you lose the ability to get 8 skill points per rogue levels.
Anyway, investing in two other feats, Dodge and Mobility is not much of loss, you get much more in return... those feat adds to your AC.
Anuis
Quote: Posted 07/19/04 16:13:49 (GMT) -- Anuis
Quote: I wasn't disputing the fact that if you had (for example) 14 DEX, you would get +2 to your AC. What I meant was that if you had 43 ranks in Tumble and your modifier brought it up to 45, the bonus to your AC from Tumble would still only be +8, not +9 because the game does not give you an AC bonus for every 5 ranks in Tumble if they come from anything other than base ranks. I'm quite certain this is the case, which is why you see so many builds that have Tumble stop at 40 ranks. So, just as another example for edification: even if you had 43 base ranks in Tumble and 14 DEX (+2 modifier) and Epic Skill Focus:Tumble, your modified Tumble skill is 55, but your AC bonus is still only +8, not +11.
Yes.. you are correct about that. However, it would be benefitful if you had high tumble skill for your build since you are not melee based, it would be useful so you can avoid being hit by heavy hitters.
Anuis
But the build does have a high Tumble (40 ranks), and since Tumble is used to avoid AoOs while moving in combat - at a DC of only 15 - then having a higher Tumble score than 15 is pointless other than the AC benefit. _________________ "Tis no man, 'tis a remorseless EATING machine..."
One big feature of this build that everyone seems to be forgetting:
You can play this build straight through as chaotic evil or neutral evil, unlike a monk or paladin build.
Edit:
I also just realized that going 2/16/2 pre-epic will net you +1 to reflex saves, and +1BAB (as if that matters).
Another edit:
Armor skin would net +2 AC. The tradeoff would be, you'de have to dump a feat somewhere...
One possibility is to replace Epic CHA 1 & 2 with Toughness and Armor Skin.
Edited By MajorJuggler on 07/24/04 18:01
If you want Toughness and Armor Skin drop Combat Casting and Imp. Combat Casting. You can avoid Attacks of Opportunity by casting defensively. _________________ Order of the Stick Click Here
If you want Toughness and Armor Skin drop Combat Casting and Imp. Combat Casting. You can avoid Attacks of Opportunity by casting defensively.
The build uses the casting while in Expertise/Improved Expertise exploit. If you're in DCM, you can't use those feats. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
SD gets UMD?
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
OMG. ok, i'll shut up now
that is a humorous bump no doubt. _________________ People with no lives try to live others.
Quote: Posted 07/19/04 20:12:03 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din But the build does have a high Tumble (40 ranks), and since Tumble is used to avoid AoOs while moving in combat - at a DC of only 15 - then having a higher Tumble score than 15 is pointless other than the AC benefit.
With full plate and tower shield tumble and other dex-based skills suffer a pretty big penalty, so just 15 would not be very useful. Still, 40 should more than enough of course.
Edited By pulse cap on 07/03/05 01:06
Quote: Posted 07/03/05 01:03:45 (GMT) -- pulse cap
Quote: Posted 07/19/04 20:12:03 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din But the build does have a high Tumble (40 ranks), and since Tumble is used to avoid AoOs while moving in combat - at a DC of only 15 - then having a higher Tumble score than 15 is pointless other than the AC benefit.
With full plate and tower shield tumble and other dex-based skills suffer a pretty big penalty, so just 15 would not be very useful. Still, 40 should more than enough of course.
That comment was (along with being about a year old) aimed at just the Tumble skill as an abstract, not necessarily with regards to an armored character.
This build was my first one ever posted and I'd do it a bit differently now. I'd only take 2 Rogue levels (for the Evasion feat). At the time, I was mistakenly under the impression that Uncanny Dodge allowed you to keep Dodge AC - it doesn't.
The way I'd do this build now is SOR 35/Rogue 2/BG 3. That would still give you all the skills you want and you'd get another epic SOR bonus feat in the bargain. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Hrmm.. I was thinking about making something similar for the PW I play on. Imp EX is disabled on casting, however. Wouldn't the best way to do this be to sub out the two rogue levels for two monk levels and reduce blackguard levels to two? You end up with 36 spell DCs, the blackguard darkblessing saving throw thing and all the skill points you need. So you would be Sorc36/BG2/MO2 In addition, you get cleave for free, which makes it easier to multiclass to blackguard.
You could switch your abilities around to something more like this:
Hrmm.. I was thinking about making something similar for the PW I play on. Imp EX is disabled on casting, however. Wouldn't the best way to do this be to sub out the two rogue levels for two monk levels and reduce blackguard levels to two? You end up with 36 spell DCs, the blackguard darkblessing saving throw thing and all the skill points you need. So you would be Sorc36/BG2/MO2 In addition, you get cleave for free, which makes it easier to multiclass to blackguard.
You could switch your abilities around to something more like this:
Yeah, this was my very first posted build and was made before the patch that updated SOR bonus feats to include GRT CHA. I'd do it differently now. Should probably post a revised version (I never use the Expertise/Imp Expertise exploit anyway).
You could use Monk if you like - it would probably work well. I won't. Ever. I hate Monks and refuse to use even a single level in any build I make. For me, I'd go with only 2 Rogue, as the third level was in the build because I was mistakenly under the impression that Uncanny Dodge would allow you to keep your Dodge AC if caught flat-footed.
A new version for me would be SOR 35/Rogue 2/BG 3 and I'd take a few different feats (and probably some different skills) as well.
Cheers.
*edit* Oh, you'll need 3 BG levels and Power Attack (which means STR of 13+) if you want to take the Divine Shield feat. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 09/14/05 06:20
I have never seen the saves bonus from spellcraft change due to modifiers. I mean if I have 12 ranks in spellcraft and 14 INT and on a level up add one rank in spellcraft it doesn't change my saves. Not on the screen atleast. Does it really change? Edit Ah sorry stupid remark... I'll take your word for it.
Edited By Bruce Lee 72 on 09/15/05 10:29
Quote: Posted 09/15/05 10:23:42 (GMT) -- Bruce Lee 72
I have never seen the saves bonus from spellcraft change due to modifiers. I mean if I have 12 ranks in spellcraft and 14 INT and on a level up add one rank in spellcraft it doesn't change my saves. Not on the screen atleast. Does it really change? Edit Ah sorry stupid remark... I'll take your word for it.
Your changes in your saves from spellcraft would never change your character sheet, as it's only against spells and not a flat out bonus to all saves. But it definitely does use your modified spellcraft including INT and other bonuses, as I've tested it in the past.
Steve
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 09/15/05 15:47
Sorry but I had to add this, I have tested the tumble skill in battle and even if the roll was a 1 you still dont fail your saving throw as long as your skill point is over 14. This makes this skill (along with spellcraft) the best skill to take even if you have to cross class. If I am wrong please let me know.
Quote: Posted 09/18/05 11:26:08 (GMT) -- Jehoshua
Sorry but I had to add this, I have tested the tumble skill in battle and even if the roll was a 1 you still dont fail your saving throw as long as your skill point is over 14. This makes this skill (along with spellcraft) the best skill to take even if you have to cross class. If I am wrong please let me know.
You're not wrong, but just to be pedantic, the Tumble check is a skill check, not a saving throw. Autofail on 1 only aplies to saving throws and to hit rolls. It doesn't apply to skill checks. A modified score of 14 in Tumble is enough to avoid AoOs generated from moving in combat. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
SD gets UMD?
that is a humorous bump no doubt.