I was trying to create a character with Epic Dodge, Self Concealment V, and could use a large weapon effectively. There's no Dev Crit in this build, but it's still pretty good. I used a Greatsword, but I'll also list changes I would make if using a scythe or 2 kukris. This character is also viable to play throughout the entire course of levelling.

Human, any alignment

Stats:
STR 14
DEX 18
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 8
WIS 8

Final BAB: +36/+31/+26/+21
Final AC: 28
Final Saves:
Fort: 20
Ref: 31
Will: 15 (kinda low, but char has Slippery Mind)

Level Allocation:
Fighter x 6
Weapon Master x 7
Fighter x 4
Shadowdancer x 3
Fighter x 4
Shadowcancer x 16

Raise DEX at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32
Raise STR at 36 & 40

Feats:
Level 1: Dodge, Mobility, Expertise
Level 2: Weapon Focus: Greatsword
Level 3: Disarm
Level 4: Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
Level 6: Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
Level 9: Improved Critical: Greatsword
Level 12: Toughness
Level 15: Power Attack, Cleave
Level 17: Improved Disarm
Level 18: Improved Initiative
Level 21: Great Dex I
Level 22: Epic Weapon Focus: Greatsword
Level 24: Great Dex II, Epic Weapon Specialization
Level 27: Great Dex III
Level 30: Great Dex IV
Level 33: Epic Dodge
Level 34: Self Concealment I
Level 36: Self Concealment II
Level 37: Self Concealment III
Level 39: Self Concealment IV
Level 40: Self Concealment V

For Scythe, make these changes:
Level 2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Level 3: Weapon Focus: Scythe
Level 17: Disarm
Level 18: Improved Disarm

For 2 Kukris:
Level 2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Level 3: Weapon Focus: Kukri
Level 4: Weapon Finesse
Level 9: Ambidexterity
Level 12: Two Weapon Fighting
Level 15: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical
Level 17: Disarm (or Power Attack)
Level 18: Improved Disarm (or Cleave)
(with this build, you could also switch CON and STR)

Skills:
Level 1: Discipline 4, Intimidate 2
Level 2: Hide 2, Discipline 1, Move Silently 2, Tumble 2
Level 3: Hide 1, Discipline 1, Move Silently 1, Tumble 1, Intimidate 1
Level 4: Discipline 1
Level 5: Hide 1, Discipline 1, Move Silently 1, Tumble 1, Intimidate 1
Level 6: Discipline 1
Level 7: Hide 1, Discipline 1, Move Silently 1, Tumble 1
Level 8: Discipline 1
Level 9: Hide 1, Discipline 1, Move Silently 1
Level 10: Discipline 1
Level 11: Hide 1, Discipline 1, Move Silently 1
Level 12: Discipline 1
Level 13: Hide 1, Discipline 1, Move Silently 1
Level 14: Discipline 1
Level 15: Hide 1, Discipline 1
Level 16: Discipline 1
Level 17: Hide 1, Discipline 1
Level 18: Hide 11, Move Silently 8, Tumble 16
Level 19: Hide 1, Move Silently 6, Tumble 1
Level 20: Hide 1, Move Silently 1, Tumble 1
Level 21: Discipline 4
Level 22-24: Discipline 1
Level 25: Hide 5, Move Silently 5, Tumble 5
Level 26-40: hide 1, Move Silently 1, Tumble 1

I ended with a bunch of skill points left over, so I slapped them into Lore and Persuade and Search.

What do you think?
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"What do you fear most in the world?"
"The possibility that love is not enough."
-- Major Garland Briggs, Twin Peaks Ok...Greatswords and Scythes are not finessable. So why would you use them in a very heavy dex build? The 2 kukri thing makes for a decent char, but don't use anything bigger than a rapier! The dervish build from a few days ago does what you are looking for. He has a high strength, dev crit, and ED,SC.

Otherwise you would be as well using my swashbuckler build.

Syrath Let's see. Yes, Greatswords and Scythes aren't Finessable. That was sort of the point -- could a character with Epic Dodge and Self Conceal V use large, 2 handed weapons and still be effective. And with smaller weapons, he probably would not be. Without levels in some class that gives sneak attack, I'm not sure that even a rapier would get the job done. To take those levels would be to get away from what the build is about.

And the dervish build is cool, but I don't really want to have wings. I am also bothered on some level by the fact that many of the strongest builds take RDD (or Pale Master) levels and have no real spellcasting focus at all. I think those classes are probably some of the most powerful, but if we rely on them to make every build superpowerful, every build begins to look the same. I was trying to do something different with this build.
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"What do you fear most in the world?"
"The possibility that love is not enough."
-- Major Garland Briggs, Twin Peaks I know what you mean about the wings, for what its worth I agree with you , I just dont like them.

You should really check out my swashbuckler build. The rapier will do

For this example I will use end of HotU level items. Since it would not be a good idea to make a dex build on a low magic world.

Scythe fighter AB 36 +10 (item)+6 (stat enhancement)=52
AC = 28 + 10(bracer of armour)+10 (ring of protection)+7(amulet of natural armour)+ Boots of hardiness (or whatever the boots that give +3 dodge AC and +3 con)= 58

My Swashbuckler AB = 45 + 16= 61 AB against 58 AC 1st attack misses, 2nd attack hits on 3 (50 percent chance to miss, 3rd attack hits on an 8 (50 percent chance to miss), 4th attack hits on a 13 (50 percent chance to miss). All of these hits could be criticals if rolled over 10 and the threat roll hits (reasonable chance to happen)
AC =29 +10 (tower shield +7), +10 (bracers)+10(ring)+7(amulet)+boots (3)= 69AC against 52 AB. First hit is a miss, 2nd hit is a hit on a 20 (with no critical) (50 percent chance to miss if it does hit) 3rd and 4th hits are identical.

You are limited to 2d4+13+10+7(str enhancement) damage = 39 dmg per hit and hitting very rarely with no criticals
Whereas the swashbuckler is 1d6 +13+10+5 = 34 dmg per hit and 102 damage per critical (most hits have a crit chance)

If you can force a 20 to hit situation for both characters. The scythe would win out due to the slight increase in damage. I doubt that would happen however but that would depend on what sort of items were available. +20 items and the scythe wins hands down since everyone now needs 20 to hit.

Syrath
Quote: Posted 07/25/04 16:11:09 (GMT) -- syrath1001

I know what you mean about the wings, for what its worth I agree with you , I just dont like them.

You should really check out my swashbuckler build. The rapier will do

For this example I will use end of HotU level items. Since it would not be a good idea to make a dex build on a low magic world.

Scythe fighter AB 36 +10 (item)+6 (stat enhancement)=52
AC = 28 + 10(bracer of armour)+10 (ring of protection)+7(amulet of natural armour)+ Boots of hardiness (or whatever the boots that give +3 dodge AC and +3 con)= 58

My Swashbuckler AB = 45 + 16= 61 AB against 58 AC 1st attack misses, 2nd attack hits on 3 (50 percent chance to miss, 3rd attack hits on an 8 (50 percent chance to miss), 4th attack hits on a 13 (50 percent chance to miss). All of these hits could be criticals if rolled over 10 and the threat roll hits (reasonable chance to happen)
AC =29 +10 (tower shield +7), +10 (bracers)+10(ring)+7(amulet)+boots (3)= 69AC against 52 AB. First hit is a miss, 2nd hit is a hit on a 20 (with no critical) (50 percent chance to miss if it does hit) 3rd and 4th hits are identical.

You are limited to 2d4+13+10+7(str enhancement) damage = 39 dmg per hit and hitting very rarely with no criticals
Whereas the swashbuckler is 1d6 +13+10+5 = 34 dmg per hit and 102 damage per critical (most hits have a crit chance)

If you can force a 20 to hit situation for both characters. The scythe would win out due to the slight increase in damage. I doubt that would happen however but that would depend on what sort of items were available. +20 items and the scythe wins hands down since everyone now needs 20 to hit.

Syrath

Well, I wouldn't use a scythe. I built this char using a greatsword -- I just included a scythe version because I figured people would want one.

With a greatsword, I could get the crit range down to 15-20 (13 if using a keen weapon). That's pretty good, IMO. You dazzle me with your strange numeric ways so I can't respond other than to say, I think you're right. I also don't play PvP, if that matters (seems like your comparison was my char v. your char). But my char would probably lose to yours. I'm also not sure why a rapier-using character would be lugging about a tower shield, but perhaps that's just my aesthetic.
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"What do you fear most in the world?"
"The possibility that love is not enough."
-- Major Garland Briggs, Twin Peaks Oh, and your swashbuckler is very cool. I must admit some embarrrasment in posting a build that is virtually identical. Here I thought I was being all creative.

But again, it's a Finess character. I guess I think it's a shame that most stealth/dodge builds are limited to Finessable weapons. I'd like to create one that is not.
Quote: Posted 07/25/04 18:41:50 (GMT) -- kreestopearq

Oh, and your swashbuckler is very cool. I must admit some embarrrasment in posting a build that is virtually identical. Here I thought I was being all creative.

But again, it's a Finess character. I guess I think it's a shame that most stealth/dodge builds are limited to Finessable weapons. I'd like to create one that is not.

BTW I do like your build (very similar to mine). However I just felt that it lacked because it didnt use a finessable weapon. If you really think about it pvm (this will sum up my waffle from earlier), you do great damage with the criticals, but when it matters and you need the damage most you find yourself in the position of not being able to land a critical because your AB is too low. This kind of defeats the purpose, you do fantastic against the weaker creatures when it doesnt count.

Unfortunately melee are forced down 2 routes usually , Finesse and go dex, epic dodge, self concealment (if you can get it) lower damage , higher AC, good AB. or go strength - overwhelming crit,dev crit higher damage, lower AC , good AB. The really good feats that characterise much epic play have really steep stat restrictions.

Syrath Yeah, I agree that a Finessable weapon would be superior. And you're also right when you posit difficulties at higher levels. Just from the testing I've done, that's the case.

I also think it would be neat to have a DevCrit equivalent for Dex characters -- sort of a "Precise Critical". But I understand why there's not -- Dex melee characters get to play at not being hit, Strength melee characters get to hit stuff really hard. I might be more satisfied if DevCrit could only apply to twohanded weapons. Again, it's an aesthetic thing, but still kinda annoys me.
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"What do you fear most in the world?"
"The possibility that love is not enough."
-- Major Garland Briggs, Twin Peaks