What if you take a few less SD levels and drop the self conceal feats. Then take bard levels high enough to cast fourth level spells, and put the rest in AA. That way you can cast improved invis, as well as have a stronger bard song and your enhance arrows will be slightly more potent.
Emrill, just a question...
Just first thing.. I don't normally do rogue builds other than SD... but I am thinking.
What if you were to drop SD class entirely and replace the levels that were SD with Rogue? Would you still be able to get self concealment? I mean, get self concealment with less Rogue levels than SD?
Not sure if I am making any sense... this happens when I am not getting enough sleep. LOL.
Anuis
Edited By Anuis on 07/27/04 17:42
Quote: Posted 07/27/04 16:24:51 (GMT) -- Emrill
What if you take a few less SD levels and drop the self conceal feats. Then take bard levels high enough to cast fourth level spells, and put the rest in AA. That way you can cast improved invis, as well as have a stronger bard song and your enhance arrows will be slightly more potent.
I agree! What is everyone's obsession with SC 5 lately? It's 5 epic feats! 5!!! It always seems to be in builds that are only a few levels away from lvl 4 bard spells anyway. Think about what you can do with 5 feats.
I think I started a trend there , oops,
Seriously SC 5 can pack a punch when combined with Epic dodge. You cannot get SC5 with less rogue feats than a shadowdancer. You need rogue level 10 (improved evasion). You need a dex of 30 by level 32. Then you must fit in as follows
You only have 7 levels to fit in 2 bonus feats, this cant be done with rogue. So you must start with a higher dex than 18 to do it. So Rogue is level 10 + 2 bonus feats (level 16 and you cant take defensive roll for epic dodge unless you want to go level 19. Shadowdancer is (level 10 + 2 epic feats or level 16 sd for both Epic dodge and SC 5).
Emril with regards to your amendment , thats fine if you want a more offensive build, but bear in mind this fight.
Took this build against a prismatic dragon, I won the fight, it took probably about 5-8 minutes of fighting and I took in total around 20 damage during the whole fight. I took the same build with more AA levels and epic dodge. The fight was over in 10 rounds and I was lying there as a corpse.
Thats a good bit of a difference in survivability.
I also took this build naked against the prismatic dragon (only with a northwind bow no armour , just standard clothes). It took 5 minutes to kill me and it did that by chain casting 4 harms on me (one landed) other than that in total it took around 180 hp off me during the fight (before and after I respawned). So if I had managed to avoid the harm, I could have taken the dragon out without anything other than a good bow. Personally I think thats pretty much the way Id prefer to keep the build.
Syrath
Syrath, do you consider this you most powerful build?
What if you take a few less SD levels and drop the self conceal feats. Then take bard levels high enough to cast fourth level spells, and put the rest in AA. That way you can cast improved invis, as well as have a stronger bard song and your enhance arrows will be slightly more potent.
I agree! What is everyone's obsession with SC 5 lately? It's 5 epic feats! 5!!! It always seems to be in builds that are only a few levels away from lvl 4 bard spells anyway. Think about what you can do with 5 feats.
Just wanted to support that notion... I think SC as an epic feat is a huge waste... it isn't simply 5 epic feats, it's frequently 8+ because of epic dex. If you consider that any intelligent fighter will have blind fight, he gets to square that 1/2 chance to miss into a 1/4 chance. Big deal, so you die 75% as quickly. I don't get the draw. Too many builds sacrifice so much just to die a little slower. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
There is certainly some truth to that. SC5 is a lot like taking the WM class; the pre-reqs are costly, and the things you have to do to a build to get SC5 can often hurt the build in other ways. . .there are times when its applicable to do SC5, but its not nearly as often as you see it.
That being said, when I DO think its suitable in a build, I go look at one of syraths builds for ideas. _________________ Normal kids play rock-paper-scissors. Shifter kids play IronGolem-RustMonster-MindFlayer. . .
Edited By xitooner on 09/02/04 19:29
Quote: Posted 09/02/04 19:14:35 (GMT) -- yrtsns Just wanted to support that notion... I think SC as an epic feat is a huge waste... it isn't simply 5 epic feats, it's frequently 8+ because of epic dex. If you consider that any intelligent fighter will have blind fight, he gets to square that 1/2 chance to miss into a 1/4 chance. Big deal, so you die 75% as quickly. I don't get the draw. Too many builds sacrifice so much just to die a little slower.
I understand many people reticence at spending what amounts to 9 feats to get 50 percent concealment. In fact what I do with most of my builds is to spend a lot more feats than that to get epic dodge and SC5. I have stressed in the past that these builds are most suited to high or at least medium magic worlds. In low magic worlds where AC never ever comes close to AB offence is king.
Now that I have that over with lets look closely at the seperate effects of epic dodge and self concealment
SC 5 - Avoid 50 percent of spells, ranged and melee. This allows you to last twice as long in combat on average. If your attacker has blind fight and is in melee you are down to 25 percent
Epic dodge - Avoid the first attack to land in combat. Forcing your opponent to get 2 attacks to land in a round to actually damage you.
PvM it will be rare for any boss type mob to be able to match your AC with its AB in a medium magic world. PvP it will be impossible for a melee character to match his AB to your AC with only hotu level items. This forces a 20 to hit situation for both characters in pvp. And at least a 20 to hit situation for the boss mob in pvm. This in effect makes you immune to criticals so they will not come into play.
Now we have all that out of the road we shall now look at the combined effect of all 3 of these things put together.
For an attacker with 4 attacks per round trying to hit you when you have high AC as described above, epic dodge and self concealment.
First he must roll a hit which is a 1 in 20 chance. If he hits he must then overcome concealment making it now a 1 in 40 chance. If he manages to do all 3 of these things in the first attack he then has 3 attacks to do it all over again.
I am going to simplify the calculation for you to make it easier , however should you wish the full calculation then I will provide it for you. So you have a 1/40 chance to land the first hit and a 3 in 40 chance to land another hit in the round(this is very basic but the actual calculation works out with a similar result). This gives you a 3/1600 chance to land a hit in any one round. Compared with the character without who is hit 1/5 rounds.
Blind fight alleviates this but not so much so that it increases the chance to any reasonable leve. Also the number of incoming attacks increases the liklehood of a successful hit.
So here we have someone who is immune to dev crit due to AC, and takes a 3/1600 chance to hit him. Roughly 1 attack every 100 rounds. My tests have born this figure out and I have tested epic dodge for some probably 40 hours now over the last few months. The best is when you try to hit it with ranged. I have seen 3 hours go by without one hit isnt that worth an 9 feat expenditure.
Syrath
Sorry for the double post here but i came across my old calculations for epic dodge hit chances so here goes.
Attacks are 20/20/20/20
Chance of getting rolling a hit= 5 % = 2.5 % with SC 5 or 3.75 % if blind fight is in effect.
Ok the only possible outcomes that result in damage where 1 is roll of 20 and 0 is a miss are
So the chance of getting hit with an AC of 20 more than your opponents AB with epic dodge and self concealment =the sum of all the above=0.86504150390625% chance to be hit in any one round.
Compared with the build without epic dodge and SC5 who has 20 percent chance to be hit in the same situation Or the build with just epic dodge who has a chance of roughly 2.5 percent chance to be hit Or the build with just Self concealment 5 who has a 10 percent chance of being hit in any one round.
The effect of self concealment 5 on a build who already has epic dodge is to make epic dodge 4 times more effective even against someone with blind fight. If the opponent doesnt have blind fight , he will be waiting a long time.
This is as close as you get to being immune to melee or ranged damage. It also has the side effect of making you immune to someone attacking you with bigbys since its a ranged touch attack and is subject to both concealment and epic dodge. And making 50 percent of targetted spells miss you completely.
Syrath
I see the draw now, at least for a high magic world... I don't typically think of an <insert typical ED/SC5 build here> as having high ac. I was also unaware that spells were affected by concealment, which is a very nice bonus, and I didn't realize Epic Dodge applied to the first _landed_ attack.. I thought it was just the first attack. That said I have a new appreciation for Epic Dodge/Self Conceal (although I'd still rather just build for imp. invis with epic dodge, if anything). Thanks for the info, syrath. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
A rogue would let you get epic dodge; self-conceal takes a lot of extra feats without adding that much more. Rogue gives most of the SD bennies without HIPS (improved evasion etc), and the extra sneak attack combined with the AA bonus could make a deadly archer.
Rogue requires Level 10 Improved evasion Level 13 Defensive roll Level 16 Self concealment bonus feat Level 19 Self concealment bonus feat
You will lose 3 levels of AA and an AA bonus feat but you will still get there with higher sneak damage, less hit points, more skill points and without slippery mind and hips.
Syrath
I've heard that Epic Dodge is bugged and it only works for ranged attacks.. is this true? Also you said it works for the first landed hit of each round.. are you sure it isn't simply the first attack, period? That seems to be what everyone says about it. Just wondered if you could clear it up for me since it would seem you're the resident expert. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
Ive lost count of the amount of times I have tested epic dodge, it must be something around 40-80 hours now.
As for it only working for ranged, you will find that people think that because they get a nice message saying Epic Dodge Evaded when they are attacked from range.
However in melee no such message comes up, but what you will see is many things like
attack (20+45) = miss
Its just that the feedback message doesnt show. This is similar to the way the feedback for an assassin sneak attack doesnt show either.
As for the description in the manual about avoiding the first attack , this is either inaccurate or bugged. To be exact in melee it avoids the first attack to land during the round of combat from your target.
Even this description is a little inaccurate since you also avoid the first attack to land when you are flatfooted in melee. However after this it ceases to function until you target someone.
So if you remain flatfooted you will avoid only the first attack of the combat.
Syrath
Quote: As for the description in the manual about avoiding the first attack , this is either inaccurate or bugged. To be exact in melee it avoids the first attack to land during the round of combat from your target.
So your target determines who it works against, and everyone else attacking you doesnt have an issue with it, correct? _________________ Normal kids play rock-paper-scissors. Shifter kids play IronGolem-RustMonster-MindFlayer. . .
Correct. Even if someone lands a hit first, you still only dodge the attacks from your target.
I never ever got round to finishing the last test I needed to do and that is to have your target attacking something else while you are getting attacked to see if you were able to dodge in that circumstance, my guess is that epic dodge would fail after the first successful attack is landed, in the same way as if you are attacked while flat footed(ie the first attack is dodge , thereafter it either doesnt work or is bugged)
Syrath
Thanks syrath. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
Syrath,
Your stats are: STR 14 DEX 18(32) CON 10 WIS 8 INT 12 CHA 14
However; if one chose to go Str 12 and Int 14 (to garner more skill points) would that negatively impact the build? I think this would significantly improve the functionality of the build by permitting more skills to be maxed.
Thanks, Kaliban.
It doesnt affect the build functionality whatsoever. In fact I made the suggestion myself when I posted the build for someone on the general epic builder forum. iirc I suggested dropping strength to 10.
Syrath
Thats funny in my tests I found that epic dodge worked against all opponents attacking you. I tested in Hotu testing mod found in the vault website vs like 9 or so admantine golems. I performed the test quite a bit over the course of a week or so...with differing epic dodge builds...
Regardless good work!
could this build be adapted by subing SD for monk to get some speed, how will this affect the build ? i've seen monk lvls get self con epic dodge ect, so will this make an epic difference to the build?
Monks cannot get epic dodge unless they also have rogue 10 or shadowdancer 5 for defensive roll, which is a feat that a monk on his own will never get.
Syrath
Taking it as given that Epic Dodge and SC5 are highly useful, is this the best build using those feats? It seems that this build will be rather low on the damage dealing side, against just about everything.
Personally I dont think that 1d8 +8 damage is all that bad, when you consider that is with a normal bow and arrow. It would take a barbarian to have 26 strength to do this sort of damage with a 1 handed sword.
Syrath
Even an unmaxed Barb build would get a lot more from crits, not to mention a more likely Fi/WM build, but the true comparison is with a sneak damage Rogue/Fi type Epic Dodge/SC5 char with ITWF and a pair of kukris...
Try the rogue against a dragon , bare 1d6 + str damage. This build could take out a prismatic dragon (not every time) with only a northwind bow and nothing else.
Each has its strengths. What you suggest is a completely different build and should be compared with other similar characters.
Syrath
I know, but you seem to be missing my point. This build requires 8 levels Bard which aren't giving you much, and the AA levels are constrained because of this, which affects your AB and damage.
A Rogue build is entirely different, as you say, but would give you Sneak Damage and Rogue Feats as well. OK the Sneak Damage doesn't work against all creatures, but it's a nice bonus when it does. And you still have two classes to use, e.g. a Rogue/Wiz/AA.
So what I'm asking is whether going the SD route has any advantage.
Didn't someone mention earlier about getting more bard lvls for Improved invisibility? What are the advantages of SC5 over II?
Another thing I am wondering more and more is why do ppl even bother doing PvP with this +20 garbage.. just because you CAN wear it doesn't mean you should. I am not saying to fight naked but what is there to prove from having designs not meant for high AC still not being able to be hit by anybody 'cept on a 20? Many times I have read in this forum that "AC doesn't matter since you can just wear +20 gear and not be able to be hit." Consider how much bonus you can get to your weap and how much you can get to AC.. just because you CAN get a ridiculous AC compared to AB doesn't mean you should. [/rant]
Not sure how much I like SC 5(there is II) but I do really like epic dodge. I made a cleric with epic dodge and I was thinking of posting a Dragon build with it too.. Someone prolly already has though..
Post it, I agree that Epic Dodge is one of the best feats there is.
Improved Invisibility gives you how much concealment once you've attacked?
It's a real shame that concealment doesn't stack...
A dragon with epic dodge? That would be fun to see. Getting 25 dex AND 30 Wisdom in one build? Good luck!
*gets back to topic*
My opinion on Self Concealment and Epic Dodge is this. They are character defining feats like dragon shape and planar turning. These feats take a lot of work to get, but in the end they give the character tremendous power (not quite sure about planar turning though).
I love Self Concealment and Epic Dodge. I'd use it more too if my favorite server wasn't level 30 limit....best I've gotten in 30 levels is Epic Dodge and self conceal 3.
Also, if you don't like Self Concealment 5, then you don't have to bring it into someone's face. It's their build and if you don't like it then deal with it. Don't say its a waste of feats because its not and there have been enough posts about it to prove that in combination with epic dodge it becomes a very powerful defensive option. If you want to see these, go to any of syrath's builds that have Self Concealment 5 and read the posts. It's the same argument over and over again.
Didn't someone mention earlier about getting more bard lvls for Improved invisibility? What are the advantages of SC5 over II?
Another thing I am wondering more and more is why do ppl even bother doing PvP with this +20 garbage.. just because you CAN wear it doesn't mean you should. I am not saying to fight naked but what is there to prove from having designs not meant for high AC still not being able to be hit by anybody 'cept on a 20? Many times I have read in this forum that "AC doesn't matter since you can just wear +20 gear and not be able to be hit." Consider how much bonus you can get to your weap and how much you can get to AC.. just because you CAN get a ridiculous AC compared to AB doesn't mean you should. [/rant]
Not sure how much I like SC 5(there is II) but I do really like epic dodge. I made a cleric with epic dodge and I was thinking of posting a Dragon build with it too.. Someone prolly already has though..
Who mentioned plus 20 gear. With these sort of builds (especially those with shields) it is possible to get your AC beyond the reach of ANY melee attack with just HotU campaign items. Agreed it requires some monk levels or UMD, but it is possible. PvM 70-80 AC is enough , which is very possible with +5 gear or thereabouts.
Syrath
You need to get back into bed and get out the right side this time. It's reasonable for someone to ask whether SC5 is necessary if you have II.
Empirically it doesn't seem to me that II gives you the same benefits, but I may be wrong, and if I am then it's clear that II is a much "cheaper" route.
It's also reasonable to ask whether SD is the best route to SC5. Maybe it is, but I like to see a reason, rather than, "I like it this way".
This is an "Epic Build" forum, not a "It's my build and that's how I like it" forum.
Oops, bad timing. That was in relation to the previous post.
Improved invis can be dispelled, and needs to be recast when it runs out. Though i admit I think the duration is rather long the point is scv is always active and cannot be dispelled.
There are a few pale master builds and monk builds that can jack AC through the roof even with just plus 6 items.
Heck even a standard bd rdd fighter build can get to the 75 mark with just little help from umd. Bottom line there are far more ways to jack ac than to jack attack bonus and in an epic enviroment you will more often than not only hit on a 20 in a 40 vs. 40 melee situation.
There are two ways to tackle this problem from a melee standpoint.
1. Get more attacks so you can roll more 20's like dual wielding kama monk/fighter/weaponmaster. You are basicly locked into monk if you go this route and without fighter/ranger/barb/paladin levels pre-epic your going to be stuck with a low attack bonus that is bad if you plan on using improved knockdown.
2. Get epic dodge and/or sc v so you can make sure your opponent misses even if he rolls a 20 or not. This locks you into either rogue or shadow dancer. Shadow dancers can achieve the requirments for both faster than rogue AND get hips AND a minion AND shadow daze/evade AND some other feats as well all in 10 levels. So your sacrificing 5d6 or 6d6 sneak attack damage and 1 bonus feat to get all of this. Rogues get a slight edge in damage but that is about it otherwise sdancer is far and awya more efficient. _________________ "In the end we are all dead men. It is how we chose to meet that end that matters."
-Gladiator
Sorry if i sounded abrupt in an earlier post, I did not mean to be.
Improved invisibilty can be used in place of SC 5. but consider the far reaching effect that getting Epic Dodge and SC 5 together in a build.
Epic dodge/Sc5 combined with a good AC can be used to turn a 1 in 20 hit situation against a boss mob into a 1 in 4000 hit situation. This proves its usefulness in melee on a one on one situation.
Now lets look at them individually.
Epic Dodge, goes a long way to providing immunity to a mages tough attack, including the entire Bigbys line.
SC5 provides 50 percent damage reduction against EVERY melee combatant fighting you. Unless they have blind fight. It also provides 50 percent targeted spell immunity. Since half of a mages attacks will not even be able to be cast. Slippery Mind adds to this immunity by giving a 2nd roll on mind attacks.
Improved evasion(one of the prereq for it) provides virtual immunity to anything with a reflex save (most AoE spells) except if you roll a 1 (if its a targetted spell the caster has a 50 percent chance to let loose the spell anyway).
Overall this provides for one of the most defensive characters you can get from both spell and melee. It does have a low will save, however this is quite well compensated for. Now you may consider that taking SC5 in a build is extreme, but so are the results of getting it. Shadowdancer does this in one neat package without providing an XP penalty sometimes taking rogue would do that, or taking rogue will lose you HipS and slippery mind thereby making it a completely different build.
Your point that taking rogue is a viable one but if I were to choose rogue for an archer build I would go the whole way and go for Rogue 33/ Fighter 6/ Shadowdancer 1- however this is known as the rogue archer and can be found on the epic character page. It is a very good build that does damage as 1d6+6 damage with a normal bow, but fires non magical arrows with massive sneak attack. This build firest +8 arrows with a much higher AB than the rogue archer. Therein lies the difference and where one is better than the other.
Syrath
You got me 50% convinced!
How does this build compare to the Rogue/Wiz/AA by Aquion Charlemagne from this forum?
This is probably a better place to discuss the buils i am working on ?
Im new to this forum but not NWN i play on a PW which has banned dev crit, i am working on a duel weild with self conceament v and high AC/AB, so far i have got:-
ranger/monk/sd ranger 25 for free 2 weapon feats +(for bane of enemies)monk ? KD/IKD at least 6, would leave 9 SD for self concealment feats.
Can someone help we with lvl up info to achieve this, if think this char would be hard to beat in PvP if i could get all 50% concealment.
Or is there a better build to not get hit and hit back hard, mainly thinking of beating PM hybrids with a melee based char not caster.
I have used master of melee before and managed to beat some PM melee hybrid builds but not all the time as i get hit to much, so thinking self concealment & epic dodgeis the way to go, that im sure of.
Any help greatfully recieved.
Ask on the general forums. This forum is to post a build and then comment on how to tweak/improve that particular build. _________________ Come visit the Epic Builders Guild for all the character info you could ever want or need: Click Here
syrath1001 - can you please tell me if you would recommend this build, as is, on a world where: (a) there is no Dev crit; (b) there are no items greater than +5; (c) haste items are rare; (d) there are already custom mosnters (trolls and cyclops) that can hit epic level characters who have 60 AC.
If the build, as is, is not suited for this world, could you please explain how you would modify it so that it would be?
In addition, if the build is left as is, can you please suggest how you would equip the build, for highest AC possible, given the +5 item restriction.
Thanks in advance.
Warning some number crunching up ahead
Given the items available
Ring of protection +5 Armor (robes or bracer of armor +5) Dodge +5 (boots of the sun soul ??) Amulet of natural armor +5
Your base AC is 10 Tumble base =8 AC DEX =32 (+2 +5 items) for +16 AC
For a grand total of 54 AC. Given that you have no shield this isnt too bad at all. Buffs (including bard song) will increase this higher.
While you gave the 60 AC as a benchmark , I have no idea about the attackers AB.
However given that you have minimum unbuffed 54 AC the we can safely say you will avoid a lot more attacks than your 60 AC friends,at least by 1/4 or so (given that the monster requires a 2 to hit you both)
If the monsters AB isnt as big as this and it requires say a 14 to hit you, you can still expect to get hit a lot less. So much so you can expect a much easier ride. However remeber epic dodge only works against your target, if someone else is attacking you they only have concealment to deal with.
Compare 60 AC against 54 AC in this situtation, ie not counting epic dodge, only SC5 effects
AB of 37 60 AC requires 20 to hit 2 in 40 attacks hit 54 AC requires 19 to hit 2 in 40 attacks hit
ABof 38 60 AC requires 20 to hit 2 in 40 attacks hit 54 AC requires 18 to hit 3 in 40 attacks hit
AB of 39 60 AC requires 20 to hit 2 in 40 attacks hit 54 AC requires 17 to hit 4 in 40 attacks hit
AB of 40 60 AC requires 20 to hit. 2 in 40 hit 54 AC requires 16 to hit, then 50 percent. 5 in 40 hit
AB of 41 Requires 19 to hit. 4 in 40 hit Requires 15 to hit. then 50 percent 6 in 40 hit
AB of 42 Requires 18 to hit. 6 in 40 hit Requires 14 to hit.then 50 percent 7 in 40 hit
AB of 43 Requires 17 to hit 8 in 40 hit requires 13 to hit, then 50 percent 8 in 40 hit
AB of 44 Requires 16 to hit. 10 in 40 hit Requires 12 to hit 9 in 40 hit.
So monsters that are hitting you (without epic dodge) have an easier time hitting you when their AB is 37-42. The rest of the time you have an easier time than the 60 AC builds. Remember this is without epic dodge. Concealment also helps against spells. So yes id recommend the build when +5 items are available.
Remeber also that you also have bard buffs available to increase your AC beyond 60 (bard song, haste, cats grace etc)
Syrath
Edit - one to think about is this, drop 3 AA levels , although this reduces your offensive ability , it could help out a lot. Start with 19 DEX and take epic shadowlord at shadowdancer level 13 take an extra 3 SD levels to compensate. This gives you an extremely effective meat shield. It either lasts seconds or its immunities effectively keep it going for a long time giving you time to pepper your opponent with arrows _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Edited By syrath1001 on 03/12/05 17:41
Don't forget about armor skin. That makes it 56. (although now that i think about it, maybe you were in a feat crunch and werent able to take it. in that case see suggestion below.) And with mage armor, 57. And as syrath pointed out, with epic dodge and SC V, you'll be hit very infrequently.
Edit: I might've looked above and seen the discussion about this, but I didn't. I'm going to leave this in just as a suggestion for the person who asked about using the build on a PW: There's one thing I want to ask though, syrath... why go the SC V route when you could toss a couple more bard levels in and get a bunch of castings of imp invis? Maybe 11 bard (gets you +2 ac song, as opposed to no ac... so you could make the above 59 ac with song) 19 AA and 10 SD. You'd lose a single epic feat, but you'd gain back the five you used on SC V. What this would also mean for the person who wanted to use this in a PW is that your character achieves 50% conceal and epic dodge much earlier, so the last levels of his career will be much easier. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
Edited By yrtsns on 03/12/05 21:00
Imp invisibility has a duration , some of the fights. If you have ed/SC5 and enough AC you can quite literally have a fight with one target(that you cant damage ie through damage resistance) for a couple of hours(real time) if you like and still not reach for that potion of heal. Meanwhile your criticals eventually wear down the DR 30 mob. It may take some time but you would do it. If you used imp invis your concealment would drop before the end of the fight, it the fight is no longer in your favour since your opponent will hityou 3 out of every 400 rounds(if your opponent has 4 attacks per round). DR is a dex builds nightmare , all you need to do though is square the odds in your favour then its a numbers game for the rest of the fight.
I would hate to do the above fight however(dieing of boredom could be a more likely option) but it does give you an idea of the longevity provided by SC 5.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Yeah, but like you said... who really WANTS to last that long? _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
Bear in mind that you are not in one on one combat all the time, what this build does is allow you to take one monsters melee out of the equation while turning the rest into 50 percent effectiveness.
This gives you the time required to deal with them all regardless of dispels , anti magic areas, beholder anti magic rays.
The strength based fighter with dev crit deals with it more impatiently by taking them out quicker. Should the fight last any length of time he will eventually die due to wounds. This happens with the shadow archer over a much longer period of time.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Thanks for the replies guys. The info is much appreciated...
Ive leveld this build to 35 in the Athas Reborn PW. Solid as they come and cheap cheap cheap. I dropped the improved initiative for called shot so I could see my foes crawl to me in agony right before I hips out of sight. Thanks for the great build.
Ive leveld this build to 35 in the Athas Reborn PW. Solid as they come and cheap cheap cheap. I dropped the improved initiative for called shot so I could see my foes crawl to me in agony right before I hips out of sight. Thanks for the great build.
Sounds like a very nice improvement. The build already gets a high initiative roll.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a lack of information on this build... I would like to know the AB of this character...
Sorry, I'm a bit grumpy today... And I only skimmed through the topic, so I may have missed it...
Pre epic AB 7 Bard = +5 10 Arcane Archer= +10 3 SD = +2 Post epic AB =+10 Weapon Focus=+1 DEX Bonus= +11 Enchant Arrow = +8
TOTAL=+47
If you start with 20 dex you can swap in Epic weapon Focus and Epic Prowess for an additional +3 and not really impede the build too much but you would have to drop int to 10 and STR to 10.
SC 5 - Avoid 50 percent of spells, ranged and melee.
Avoid 50% spells? Is that confirmed? Er, wouldn't that make it at least as comparable to an Epic Monk with some Improved SR feats? At least against a high level caster?
The drawback, if this is true, would be that low level casters would have the same effect in terms of managing to cast on you.
Still awesome against epic casters though. _________________
Quote: Posted 11/30/05 17:45:00 (GMT) by Stanley Woo Everyone be like Avendesora84.
SC 5 - Avoid 50 percent of spells, ranged and melee.
Avoid 50% spells? Is that confirmed? Er, wouldn't that make it at least as comparable to an Epic Monk with some Improved SR feats? At least against a high level caster?
The drawback, if this is true, would be that low level casters would have the same effect in terms of managing to cast on you.
Still awesome against epic casters though.
Yes this is confirmed, what happens is that your opponent chooses the spell targets you and then nothing happens, they still have the spell , its just they couldnt cast it since they cant target you.
If it happened on a monk the spell fails to affect them and is cast.
Also area effect spells (like ice storm) always hit since they dont require a target (the ground will do). So in effect its not like a monks SR.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Hmm, still annoying enough against casters to make it darn useful, and offers you that little bit of extra time.
Thanks for the reply. _________________
Quote: Posted 11/30/05 17:45:00 (GMT) by Stanley Woo Everyone be like Avendesora84.
Sounds like a great build. I'm trying it out right now. I was wondering what you would think of subbing weapon finesse for rapid shot or improved initiative?
thx!
Quote: Posted 04/21/05 15:40:12 (GMT) -- langal
Sounds like a great build. I'm trying it out right now. I was wondering what you would think of subbing weapon finesse for rapid shot or improved initiative?
thx!
Not a particularly good idea. Even with a rapier 1d6+4 damage is pretty awful at level 40 IMO. It isnt supplemented with sneak attack or even (epic) weapon specialisation. However it really depends on what you are fighting.
Realistically you dont want to be in melee range (even with SC5,ED)
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
I'm wondering if this can be substituted.
It might sound crazy, but I'd want *both* Improv Invis AND Self Concealment 5.
Why?
Mostly because you won't be able to get SCV till level 39, which is a LONG wait, and it is possible to get Improv Invis by level 11.
Basically, I'm thinking of changing your build from Bard8/AA16/SD16 to Bard11/AA16/SD13
Of course, this will negatively impact being able to get SCV in the first place (due to losing that extra feat).
But in losing just *one* feat, would it be possible to take DEX up to 19... or even 20?
Of course, your STR would probably have to be lowered to 10 (and other stats depending if you want to reach DEX 20).
Those this sound like a viable alternative? (besides, once you no longer use Improv Invis at a high level, there's always warcry for that little extra umph and damage. And the 11th bard level can possibly get the bard song that gives you +2 AC if you can manage 18 perform... somehow)
shiro; Maybe it would be better to use a few scrolls. I know lots of folk don't bother with their end builds after lvl40; but it is nice to have a durable build to use for emergencies.. and if you gimp it in a transition stage; you might regret it one day.
It might sound crazy, but I'd want *both* Improv Invis AND Self Concealment 5.
Why?
Mostly because you won't be able to get SCV till level 39, which is a LONG wait, and it is possible to get Improv Invis by level 11.
Basically, I'm thinking of changing your build from Bard8/AA16/SD16 to Bard11/AA16/SD13
Of course, this will negatively impact being able to get SCV in the first place (due to losing that extra feat).
But in losing just *one* feat, would it be possible to take DEX up to 19... or even 20?
Of course, your STR would probably have to be lowered to 10 (and other stats depending if you want to reach DEX 20).
Those this sound like a viable alternative? (besides, once you no longer use Improv Invis at a high level, there's always warcry for that little extra umph and damage. And the 11th bard level can possibly get the bard song that gives you +2 AC if you can manage 18 perform... somehow)
If you take more bard levels pre epic you will lose another ab. If you take less SD levels you lose SC5 and get SC4. If you take less AA levels you lose +2 damage and +2 AB. You also lose that last bard level.
Unless you plan on going level 12 bard in which case you only get SC3 or -3 AB and -3 Damage. Then you would be better going bard /fighter/SD and get a much lower ab but +6 epic weapon specialisation damage instead of +5 enchant arrow. In that case you would most likely be able to get Bard 18 /fighter 6/SD 16. or even bard 15/fighter 6/ SD 19 and get epic shadowlord. Then again that sort of build would lack the AB this build has, but it would gain a lot of bard goodness.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
For the sever i play id need to change the build to Bard 10 SD 15 AA 15, how does this effect the build? would it make it any better or worse. Blunk. _________________ Yume No Chikara
The power of Dreams. In Japan you don't say have a dream, you say see a dream.
For the sever i play id need to change the build to Bard 10 SD 15 AA 15, how does this effect the build? would it make it any better or worse. Blunk.
You needed the bonus feat from 16 levels of shadowdancer to get Self Concealment V. So, you'll only be able to get Self Concealment IV. AA 15 vs. 16 doesn't matter. The extra bard levels will get you some extra spells, but only level 3 spells. A level 10 bard gets to learn 2 level 4 spells, but gets zero castings per day, and you don't have enough CHA to get bonus spell slots. It won't improve your bard song though (bard song doesn't improve again until level 11). In my opinion, definitely worse, but it may not be such a huge difference.
For the sever i play id need to change the build to Bard 10 SD 15 AA 15, how does this effect the build? would it make it any better or worse. Blunk.
You needed the bonus feat from 16 levels of shadowdancer to get Self Concealment V. So, you'll only be able to get Self Concealment IV. AA 15 vs. 16 doesn't matter. The extra bard levels will get you some extra spells, but only level 3 spells. A level 10 bard gets to learn 2 level 4 spells, but gets zero castings per day, and you don't have enough CHA to get bonus spell slots. It won't improve your bard song though (bard song doesn't improve again until level 11). In my opinion, definitely worse, but it may not be such a huge difference.
Steve
I cant see any way of retaining SC 5 with this configiration. It can be done with bard 10 / Shadowdancer 20/Arcane Archer 10. The AA levels have to be taken later in the build and SD 13 used for epic dodge, 16 and 19 used for self concealment,you can then free up CHA to be taken at levels 36 and 40. This impacts the offence of the build considerably though giving you -3 damage on your arrows and also a -4 AB , -3 from losing aa levels and -1 from losing 1 dex.
This brings your base arrow damage down to 1d8+5. A fighter /bard/ Shadowdancer would get 1d8+6 damage and a lot more bard levels to compensate. Played human it gets no XP penalty.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
ah damn.... plus i just heard that SD is banned and i guess that Rogue replacing SD wouldn't do much for me besides the Sneaks... i'll check another build. Thanks for the advice.
ah damn.... plus i just heard that SD is banned and i guess that Rogue replacing SD wouldn't do much for me besides the Sneaks... i'll check another build. Thanks for the advice. _________________ Yume No Chikara
The power of Dreams. In Japan you don't say have a dream, you say see a dream.
ah damn.... plus i just heard that SD is banned and i guess that Rogue replacing SD wouldn't do much for me besides the Sneaks... i'll check another build. Thanks for the advice. _________________ Yume No Chikara
The power of Dreams. In Japan you don't say have a dream, you say see a dream.
Id like everything in triplicate from now on.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Its a different build , it lacks hips but it gains sneak. Start with 18 dex
Reminds me of TPS Report cover letters.... (quote) Did you get the memo about this?
Yeah. If you could just go ahead and make sure you do that from now on, that would be great. Uh, I'll go ahead and make sure you get another copy of that memo, ok? (quote) _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Thanks Syrath.
*blushes* um..... how did i manage to post three times ? maybe it was the power of randomity. _________________ Yume No Chikara
The power of Dreams. In Japan you don't say have a dream, you say see a dream.
*blushes* um..... how did i manage to post three times ? maybe it was the power of randomity.
Maybe ? _________________ My Music
*BUMP.* _________________ CATS!
Yeah I was curious to see how many people had viewed it so far so the easiest way was to reply to it. Sorry to all who would rather see this die. _________________ My Music
The easiest is to go to the Epic Builds page, scroll to the bottom and select "topics I have started" in the display/search for bar then hit go _________________ Stand and fight, live by your heart Always one more try, I'm not afraid to die Stand and fight, say what you feel Born with a Heart of Steel!
SC5 is a lot like taking the WM class; the pre-reqs are costly, and the things you have to do to a build to get SC5 can often hurt the build in other ways. . .there are times when its applicable to do SC5, but its not nearly as often as you see it. 
A dragon with epic dodge? That would be fun to see. Getting 25 dex AND 30 Wisdom in one build? Good luck!
How does this build compare to the Rogue/Wiz/AA by Aquion Charlemagne from this forum?
This is probably a better place to discuss the buils i am working on ?