Advantages: - Hide in plain sight! Fire those spells and sneak away - Tumble, Evasion and Uncanny Dodge usefull to evade some damage - With everything concentrated on evocation you can do some nice damage with those spells
Disadvantages: - very low hitpoints (but hey the idea is not to get hit ) - low AB and damage with weapons (if all goes well you won't be needing them anyway) - Haven't tested it in the OC, so I don't know if it's playable earlier on, it's quite fun in the end though
No buffs, Normal Light Crossbow AB: 22/17 Dam: 1-8
AC 23 (Clothes, No Buffs)
Hitpoints 168 (maximum every level, if I calculated correctly...)
Concentrate on spells from the evocation school. Some other spells will be usefull, like True seeing (against rogues etc) and perhaps sanctuary or time stop, but damage spells will be most usefull (use maximize and empower where possible).
If you want to make it more playable earlier on, I guess you could drop upto 3 Wizard levels (including 1 Epic spell) to get three more levels of SD.
Also you can exchange evocation with another school, but I found evocation quite effective most of the time .
In a trainer module with some robes that only gave +7 AC, I was able to easily take out a Prismatic Dragon, a level 40 warrior and a level 40 rogue (wich are usually quite tough hand to hand).
Edited By Dimundome on 08/02/04 18:30
Why would you cross class a SD and Wizard when go stealth through magic?
Edited By TyrPaladin on 08/02/04 19:32
What are your final skill levels at?
Also, why would you ever combine those two classes when you will never be able to use your hide in plain sight? You Move Silently and Hide in Shadows skills will be so poor, that it practically makes HIPS useless.
Quote: Posted 08/02/04 22:40:21 (GMT) -- georgel
Also, why would you ever combine those two classes when you will never be able to use your hide in plain sight? You Move Silently and Hide in Shadows skills will be so poor, that it practically makes HIPS useless.
He'll be able to use it, it's just that there is no need for HIPs since he can casts the spells with the same qualities and better.
Edited By TyrPaladin on 08/02/04 23:18
Nah it can be done. The trick will be conserving skill points and just using whats neede to meet the prereqs. Once you take a SD level you can max them then with the saved points or at least get them to a respectable level. I'd say take a rogue level though in early teens instead of cross classing the SD prereqs. It'll cost you a caster level, but will net you a lot more skill points.
I made a wizard like this before, worked out very well. The great thing about a wizard is the huge int, meaning you end up getting more skill points then even a pure rogue. Dodge and mobility are also great feats for a pre epic wizard since the bonus to ac against AOO come in handy with spells.
If you take the first level of SD between 17-20 you can max tumble and hide/move silently. This also means your 4th wiz bonus feat is saved for epic levels, giving you 14 feats to spend in epic levels, easily getting great int 10 and a few epic spells. Between dodge, tumble, epic mage armor, dex buffed and uncanny dodge you will have impressive ac at high levels and have evasion for against casters and pvp.
HIPS has many advantages over invisibility. First it's instant, you don't have to cast a spell and open yourself up to AOO and waste half a round. You just click and you are safe. Second HIPS can be done as many times a day as you like, so hide - cast spell, hide - cast spell can get you out of alot of trouble. Lastly Invisibility can be seen through with many spells, even area of affect spells. Hide can only be seen with true sight, which on many servers is changed to no longer allow the caster to see hiding characters.
Since he is a wizard he can cast invisibility when merely walking between places to allow him to travel at full movement speed, then utilize HIPS when it suites him best. Just did this quick, haven't run it through a test build server yet.
Wizard 38/SD 2
Dwarf str 10 dex 14 con 16 int 18 wis 8 chr 8
Wiz 19 SD 1 Wiz 19 SD 1
feats 1 Combat Casting 3 5 Spell Penetration 6 Empower Spell 9 Maximize spell 10 Gr Spell Penetration 12 15 dodge, Spell Focus Necromancy 18 mobility 21 Gr Int 1, Gr Int 2 24 Gr Int 3, Gr Int 4 27 Epic Mage Armor, Gr Int 5 30 Epic Spell Focus Necromancy, Imp Combat Casting 33 Epic Warding, Gr Int 6 36 Gr Int 7, Gr Int 8 39 Gr Int 9, Gr Int 10
Dwarf str 10 dex 14 con 16 int 38 wis 8 chr 8
Skill points Over 400 *I think* damn hard to figure out the skills a wiz with constantly shifting int gets Conc - 42 Spellcraft - 42 Tumble - 40 Hide - 43 Move Silently - 43 Spot - 43 Listen - 43 Leaving over 100 skill points for whatever ya want.
HIPS has many advantages over invisibility. First it's instant, you don't have to cast a spell and open yourself up to AOO and waste half a round. You just click and you are safe. Second HIPS can be done as many times a day as you like, so hide - cast spell, hide - cast spell can get you out of alot of trouble. Lastly Invisibility can be seen through with many spells, even area of affect spells. Hide can only be seen with true sight, which on many servers is changed to no longer allow the caster to see hiding characters.
- HIPs does not give concealment bonus of improve invisibility, displacement, ethereal or ghostly visage.
- HIPs like invisibility can be neglected by true seeing.
- HIPs cannot make true seeing monster ignore you, if you are seen like Greater Sanctuary.
Emrill: "What are your final skill levels at?"
Sorry forgot those, I'll try and look up those when I have time for it.
"I'd say take a rogue level though in early teens instead of cross classing the SD prereqs. It'll cost you a caster level, but will net you a lot more skill points."
There's enough skill points But it's a good point if you want them for some more skills (e.g. listen and/or spot), as I said you could drop up to 3 wizard levels and drop one epic spell. I'll try your suggestion some time .
TyrPaladin:
"- HIPs does not give concealment bonus of improve invisibility, displacement, ethereal or ghostly visage."
The idea is to move away with HIPS and never let them get near enough to hit you.
"- HIPs like invisibility can be neglected by true seeing."
Don't see the point, this is no argument pro or against.
"- HIPs cannot make true seeing monster ignore you, if you are seen like Greater Sanctuary."
For those cases you can still have a Greater Sanctuary memorized, HIPS will do most of the time though.
evo_dragon:
Nice build too, perhaps I'll try the Dwarf alternative some time . But I think I'll be using a couple of extra Epic spells (or atleast Hell ball) and Auto Quicken seems also very usefull. I'm not really experience with magic builds yet, so I was wondering how much influence the extra int has on your spell casting...is it only more spell slots or does it make them a bit more powerfull too? Or does power only come from the number of wizard levels you have (and some feats)?
As Evo pointed out HIPS can be used unlimited times a day, you'll be a bit slow, but haste (item or spell) can remedy that.
The main reason I took SD was it gave you Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at level two, while a Rogue gets Uncanny Dodge at level three. With only two levels of SD I could have an extra bonus feat and SD would give me HIPS, which I thought would be fun to try (which it was ) If you don't mind lowering your wizard levels Rogue would be an alternative, but I would suggest taking atleast one level of SD too for HIPS.
Edited By Dimundome on 08/03/04 08:39
The idea is to move away with HIPS and never let them get near enough to hit you.
With concealment bonus, you won't get hit that mention. And invsibility can archieve the same thing, especially if quick spell it. Like I said, HIPs is useless to Mages because they cast spells that to the same function. Also a high level mage can stay invisible nearly 30 or more hours. Lastly, I do believe when going in stealth, you have to walk slow, at least with invisiblity I can run freely to the next area.
For those cases you can still have a Greater Sanctuary memorized, HIPS will do most of the time though.
Greater Sanctuary last for hours. I can use one ninja lot anything and everything. Which is why I said, it makes no sense to have HIPs. Basically, you are using HIPS to get free invisibility, but I can always use Potions or Wands of Invisibility or Wands of Ghost for free invisibility. And do not have to slowly walk away from my enemy to get pass them. And again, my invisibility spells last for hours so I doubt I'll need HIPS.
If silent spell worked while hidden, those 2 lvls of sd would be even more useful. I was suprised to find out it didnt work with hide, simply because the name is so suggestive. Just to make sure, is silent spell only useful if you are silenced?
The idea is to move away with HIPS and never let them get near enough to hit you.
With concealment bonus, you won't get hit that mention. And invsibility can archieve the same thing, especially if quick spell it. Like I said, HIPs is useless to Mages because they cast spells that to the same function. Also a high level mage can stay invisible nearly 30 or more hours. Lastly, I do believe when going in stealth, you have to walk slow, at least with invisiblity I can run freely to the next area.
Has it crossed your mind that he may be using those spells as well? That the HIPS is just a boost for escaping when needed?
Quote: For those cases you can still have a Greater Sanctuary memorized, HIPS will do most of the time though.
Greater Sanctuary last for hours. I can use one ninja lot anything and everything. Which is why I said, it makes no sense to have HIPs. Basically, you are using HIPS to get free invisibility, but I can always use Potions or Wands of Invisibility or Wands of Ghost for free invisibility. And do not have to slowly walk away from my enemy to get pass them. And again, my invisibility spells last for hours so I doubt I'll need HIPS.
All of your examples are limitted use though. His option gives him a quick escape when he needs it. Is it fool proof? Of course not, but neiter are your options. With his build he has both options available and is that much stronger for it. You are telling him that he should only rely on invisibility, when in fact he can already do that, plus he can HIPS when needed. Sorry, but your advice is simply bad. Your advice is like saying he should only cast fireballs, because they do damage, but don't cast IGMs, because he already has the fireballs.
TyrPaladin:
You missed (and I forgot to mention) another point, when invisible by spell if you perform a hostile action you'll become (partly) visible again and you'd have to recast the spell to get invisible again. HIPS can be used infintely, so you won't have to rest that much for replenishing your spells. Also I'd like to use as much slots as possible for damage spells (preferably evocation), I only need one or two for emergencies to really get away and be able to rest. Also I believe most of the spell effects are dispellable, HIPS is not dispellable.
So HIPS is definitely not useless in this case.
gnived:
Yeah it would be very nice if silent spell could let you stay undetected while hidden, but then again...maybe it would be just too powerfull and take the fun out of the game (just imagine fireballs coming out of nowhere and nothing to fight against ). Perhaps a Silent en Still combined would be more reasonable (so you won't be detected by listen and/or spot).
Edited By Dimundome on 08/03/04 18:45
I rebuilt slightly as a Wizard 36/Rogue 1/SD 3. I did a third shadowdancer level for making it more playable in low epic levels. Every level was wizard, except 9 which was a rogue, and 10, 25 and 39 which were SD levels. I ended up with max skills in concentration, lore, move silently, spellcraft, spot and tumble (well 40 in the last two) and a 21 discipline and 20 search. My version got you HIPs very early to use it your whole career. It can be easily modified to PRC to make a lot of use out of epic spells. It really only lost two caster levels. I did end with a lower int, because I personally hate starting with an 18 in a stat you aren't begining with a +2 in. Message me if you want an email copy of the excel spreadsheet I did.
Has it crossed your mind that he may be using those spells as well? That the HIPS is just a boost for escaping when needed?
Cast invisibility simple as that.
All of your examples are limitted use though. His option gives him a quick escape when he needs it.
You can attack while under the influence of GS as long as you don’t target an enemy, you can throw attacks out near their area to do damage. Wands are not limited, they are instantious like HIPS. Same with quicken spell and auto spell.
HIPs on the other hands, you have to wait till the next turn to use it. Your enemy still get his turn. At least with improve invisibility or displacement, that person chances of hitting when I go out of stealth is halved.
Of course not, but neiter are your options.
Give me an example and I might believe you.
You are telling him that he should only rely on invisibility, when in fact he can already do that, plus he can HIPS when needed.
It’s waste of two levels. That’s like suggesting someone to cross with Sorcerer for more spells. He's better off with one level of Rogue so he can get a series of skills rather than obtain ability with the same qualities as the ones he can cast or use from a wand.
Edited By TyrPaladin on 08/04/04 02:35
"You can attack while under the influence of GS as long as you don’t target an enemy, you can throw attacks out near their area to do damage."
Most of the spells I use in this build target an enemy. And as I said GS, invisibility, etc use spell slots, which I need for the damage spells. Also they can be cancelled by some other spells...
"HIPs on the other hands, you have to wait till the next turn to use it."
Hmm...don't know exactly how that works, but I don't intend to just stand around while waiting to become invisible. You can still run away and then use HIPS if that's the case, but I had no trouble hiding when I tested it.
"Wands are not limited, they are instantious like HIPS. Same with quicken spell and auto spell."
Wands are limited, usually once or twice a day, or they have charges wich are used up. In a battle with strong opponents you'll really need more then just one or two of those spells, especially when there are multiple opponents. Also you need to find or buy wands first (cost money), HIPS (free) will be available as soon as you take SD levels.
"It’s waste of two levels." and "He's better off with one level of Rogue"
It takes only two levels of SD (for Evasion and Uncanny Dodge), while the alternative, a Rogue, would take 3 levels. I wanted a level 38 wizard (extra feat and better spellcaster), so SD was a good option. Cross classing the first points in the requirement skills isn't that much of a problem cause you get enough points, but if it's a problem to you, you could throw in a Rogue level and drop a wizard level + feat. Losing 1 epic spell and 1 wizard level won't be that bad, I'm gonna try it out myself when I get too it.
Don't get me wrong those spells are usefull, but only for a real escapes and not hiding, taking a bit of distance and recasting more damage spells.
Shortly summoned up: - Spells take up slots, which can be used for damage spells - Spells lose effect (partly) after targeting opponents directly - Spells can be cancelled - Spells are limited, even with wands. - HIPS is free and available early, wands usually are not.
Dimundome, don;t waste your time arguing your reasons with abrick wall that just doesn't understand the concept of having more than one option to rely on.
Most of the spells I use in this build target an enemy. And as I said GS, invisibility, etc use spell slots, which I need for the damage spells. Also they can be cancelled by some other spells...
Enemies cannot see what they do not know is there. If they can see you they have true seeing, which make Invisibility spells and HIPS useless. Monsters on the other cannot respond to a character under the influence of GS. If you played Mages more, you’ll know this.
Hmm...don't know exactly how that works, but I don't intend to just stand around while waiting to become invisible. You can still run away and then use HIPS if that's the case, but I had no trouble hiding when I tested it.
HIPS allows you to disappear in front of their face. Why would you run from your enemy and set off an AOO or an enemy extra turn against you? But you can do the same thing with a Quicken Spell/Auto Quicken spell invisibility spell or a wand with the same spells.
Wands are limited, usually once or twice a day, or they have charges wich are used up.
I believe the limit is up to you. And all spellcasters have the ability to make wands by a spell from spell level 1 to 4. Invisibility is level 3 spell. So he doesn’t have to buy them, he can them.
It takes only two levels of SD (for Evasion and Uncanny Dodge), while the alternative, a Rogue, would take 3 levels.
With one level of Rogue you’ll get access to all Rogue skills and become your own Thief. And if you want Evasion, go one level of Monk. As least with you can get 1 point of extra AC and more AC through wisdom.
Spells take up slots, which can be used for damage spells
Wands.
Spells lose effect (partly) after targeting opponents directly
Improve Invisibility gives me concealment. GS doesn’t fail UNTIL you target an opponent differently. Displacement negates True seeing.
Spells can be cancelled
Half the spell a mage has can’t dispelled unless your spell effect is low.
Displacement negates True Sight? I don't usually play spellcasters and HIPS is useless on the PW I'm typically on due to everyone and their brother having TS. But if displacement negates TS, that might be useful. Can you post some more info on this?
Thanks, K'orwyn _________________ "As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought to the other fellow. He could be plotting something." --Hagar the Horrible
With one level of Rogue you’ll get access to all Rogue skills and become your own Thief.
But then why would he do that when he can just take Knock and Find Traps? They do the same thing as Thief skills only better. Much like his other spells negate the need for Shadowdancer levels. Seems like strange advice to me.
"Monsters on the other cannot respond to a character under the influence of GS"
Yes, but only while you are not attacking those monsters, which I am doing constantly. I only use GS to escape battle not in battle.
"HIPS allows you to disappear in front of their face. Why would you run from your enemy and set off an AOO or an enemy extra turn against you?"
Well you said "HIPs on the other hands, you have to wait till the next turn to use it.", I didn't have any problems hiding, but in the case you mention you can easily step back (or run a few steps) and then use HIPS. But as I said I had no problems (AOO or other attacks) using HIPS.
"I believe the limit is up to you. And all spellcasters have the ability to make wands by a spell from spell level 1 to 4. Invisibility is level 3 spell. So he doesn’t have to buy them, he can them."
Uhm...using craft wand it'll still take gold and even worse experience (which I definitely don't want to lose), also this doesn't apply to GS. So spells are still more limited and for my build too limited.
"With one level of Rogue you’ll get access to all Rogue skills and become your own Thief. And if you want Evasion, go one level of Monk. As least with you can get 1 point of extra AC and more AC through wisdom."
Still missing Uncanny Dodge, though that's not the most important thing. Taking Monk and Rogue still means taking 2 non wizard levels, SD gives the same plus Uncanny Dodge and HIPS, you only use some skill points cross-class, but you have enough anyway. Also with 8 wisdom I won't get much of a bonus (some say you actually get a penalty, haven't tested it though) from Monk and the other feats are useless too, then taking an extra level of Rogue would be better.
"Wands."
No, see previous arguments.
"Improve Invisibility gives me concealment. GS doesn’t fail UNTIL you target an opponent differently. Displacement negates True seeing."
I don't need the concealment, I need to hide, cast spell, hide, cast spell, etc. Only if I do need the concealment or need to get away I use Improved Invisibility, GS or displacement. You can memorize one, or perhaps even better use scrolls or wands for the few times you do need them. That's when the scrolls, wands, items etc are usefull.
I still haven't seen good arguments why I shouldn't use HIPS in my build. I totally agree with you that the spells you mention are very usefull for getting away and not getting hit as much, but they can't replace the way I use HIPS in this build.
But then why would he do that when he can just take Knock and Find Traps? They do the same thing as Thief skills only better. Much like his other spells negate the need for Shadowdancer levels.[.u]
You can’t disarm traps, tumble, UMD, set trap (Wizard can make good use of doing extra damage with traps.), Persuade (RP), Appraise, Spot/Listen.Search or Pick Lock.
Knock can disarm some doors, but you can save yourself a spell slot and just use pick lock. Same with Disarm traps and Search. Lvl 2 spells are full of useless spells so I use that for invisibility.
With that level of Monk I suggest, he’ll get discipline too.
(i)Yes, but only while you are not attacking those monsters, which I am doing constantly. I only use GS to escape battle not in battle.
A mage isn’t suppose to blast everything in sight. The class is suppose to be calculating class. One or two spells can end a fight. A group of ogre can be taken out with an ice storm spell, if they are all standing in the same area. The only time I need to disappear is when my spells have no affect, which is rare. Now with GS, I can stay in invisible and still attack as long as I don’t target the enemy.
Well you said "HIPs on the other hands, you have to wait till the next turn to use it."
Because works like another move. If you attack, it requires you to wait until the next round to disappear, which is why people can still hit a SD before he disappears. Stepping back and disengaging is the Rogue’s Wind Song. It cause AOO if you run or it give the enemy another around against you.
Uhm...using craft wand it'll still take gold and even worse experience
Not much.
Still missing Uncanny Dodge
There’s no creature in the game who can sneak attack. Plus, you’ll have TS so see can any enemy who try to sneak up on you. UD is only good for character melee a lot and have no way of spotting stealth enemies. Thirdly, you are a mage, your AC and HP sucks. It doesn’t matter if you get flanked or not, mages do not invest in good armor.
I don't need the concealment, I need to hide, cast spell, hide, cast spell, etc.
Concealment reduces your chance of getting hit, not to escape. Meaning you can cast a spell and have 50% chance of not getting hit. And if you get Ethereal Visage, you get 50% concealment and damage reduction. Plus, later on, you get spells like Mesthil’s Sheath (Spelling?), which does 60 acid damage to whom ever hits you (95% of the creatures in this game are not immune to that elemental) and Epic Ward. If you get hurt, you’ll have Vampire’s Touch to steal HP.
In the end, you'll waste a lot time hide and casting when you can just select a few spells to blow your enemies away. Etherael Visage + Mesthil's Sheath + Vampire's Touch + IGM = Unstoppable.
Whether or not this is accurate to pnp I dont know, but I would like to say that hips you do not need to move away to go hidden. All you have to do is disengage , this can be done quite simply with hot keying your attack button. Pressing it again will disengage you without moving.
When I actually played this style ( I dont because I found the campaign a walkover to complete with it). I had a hot key on my nostromo keypad that actually was set up with 2 keys , one to disengage and one to go back into stealth. I was able to take out Grimgaw's group without taking any damage whatsoever, which Im sure you will agree is reasonably hard to do with just a solo melee character. I also did it first time. This should be easier with a caster since you dont even have to be in melee range to do it.
Syrath
Tyr, you obviously will never get it. Quit making stupid arguements saying he shoul donly rely on one tactic. I could make endless analogies to prove to you giving a character as many options as possible would be better than limiting the character. Of course as evo stated in another thread you are exceptional at making run of the mill builds. Under your arguemetn he should play a straight level 40 mage. He obviously doesn't want to do that. He already can do everythign a straight mag can. He just wants more options, and tweaked a straight mage for those options. They are actually good tweaks as well. As I stated above, I built the character with the modifications I posted. The character can kill a straight mage very easily. The straight mage has problems, because as soon as he is dispelled, HIPS kicks his backside around.
But then why would he do that when he can just take Knock and Find Traps? They do the same thing as Thief skills only better. Much like his other spells negate the need for Shadowdancer levels.
You can’t disarm traps, tumble, UMD, set trap (Wizard can make good use of doing extra damage with traps.), Persuade (RP), Appraise, Spot/Listen.Search or Pick Lock.
Actually, the spell Find Traps removes them as well. Shadowdancer has Search, Persuade, Listen, Tumble and Spot in class. And unless you take your rogue level at late levels, your ranks in the other skills (Set Trap (?), Pick Lock) will not be very great. If you take them that late, they're not really necessary. With Shadowdancer, he will have something more versatile earlier. And you mention Discipline -- but if he's relying on spells to make him untouchable, why worry about putting points in Discipline?
Quote: A mage isn’t suppose to blast everything in sight. The class is suppose to be calculating class. One or two spells can end a fight. A group of ogre can be taken out with an ice storm spell, if they are all standing in the same area. The only time I need to disappear is when my spells have no affect, which is rare. Now with GS, I can stay in invisible and still attack as long as I don’t target the enemy.
You say a mage isn't supposed to blast everything in sight, and then talk about nuking a group with an ice storm.
Quote: There’s no creature in the game who can sneak attack. Plus, you’ll have TS so see can any enemy who try to sneak up on you. UD is only good for character melee a lot and have no way of spotting stealth enemies. Thirdly, you are a mage, your AC and HP sucks. It doesn’t matter if you get flanked or not, mages do not invest in good armor.
Personally, I've played in plenty of modules with enemies that are sneak attacking characters, who sneak both when coming out of concealment and when flanking my PC. And having poor AC and HP is an extremely good reason to worry about getting flanked.
Quote: In the end, you'll waste a lot time hide and casting when you can just select a few spells to blow your enemies away. Etherael Visage + Mesthil's Sheath + Vampire's Touch + IGM = Unstoppable.
Or, in the same number of rounds, IGMS+Hide, IGMS+Hide, IGMS+Hide, and IGMS+Hide. And no need to worry about enemies who dispell, which occur frequently in higher level games.
IMHO, it's a neat, pretty unique build. I enjoy the idea of fading in, blasting away, fading out, and doing it again next round. _________________ ------------------------------- "What do you fear most in the world?" "The possibility that love is not enough." -- Major Garland Briggs, Twin Peaks
"Etherael Visage + Mesthil's Sheath + Vampire's Touch" and "With that level of Monk I suggest, he’ll get discipline too."
This is all only usefull if they get close enough to hit you. In this build you should be back hidden before they ever get into that range, that's where HIPS comes in.
"mage isn’t suppose to blast everything in sight."
This build is focussed on evocation, this build IS supposed to kill enemies by blasting them to pieces. But it doesn't mean he can be calculating too, he can blast a group or just pick them off one by one if they are more scattered. You have several possible tactics.
And besides that, who says a mage can't just blast everything in sight if he wants to? You can play a mage in a lot of different ways, depending on how you build it. I have this feeling you are only focussed on PvM and RP, while I didn't have this build made for that specifically.
"There’s no creature in the game who can sneak attack."
The game consists of more then just creatures last time I checked. But it's true that this build doesn't really need it, opponents are not supposed to get near. But it might be a life safer when TS is not activated and you encounter some hidden opponents, besides you get it at level 2 SD along with evade.
"In the end, you'll waste a lot time hide and casting when you can just select a few spells to blow your enemies away. Etherael Visage + Mesthil's Sheath + Vampire's Touch + IGM = Unstoppable."
And have another standard mage, this build was made to do something different, please try and see it in that way. Give suggestions to make it work better while keeping to this kind of build and not make it more standard.
As for abusing the system, I have yet to see the crafts abused more than marginally..
Let me tell you a true story about my many experience with Crafting System. In Malcolm’s Mayhem server, I had 1 million gps in the bank from forging rings of CHA for 8k a piece. In one sitting, I made over 300k. It takes a REAL long time to get good at that system in MM, but once you learn it, you a make a lot money off of it. Don’t stick your head in the sand and EXPECT players not to cheat. Half of them will. The other cheat that was being abuse in MM was twinkling.
MM players would make weapons or armor for their low level character so when they reach the level to use the item, the player won’t have to forge it.
Last, but not least, we had a forging system in another rpg and the players over charged us for enhancement weapons or armor. A player sold me a +2 sword for 4k when enhancements are 1000gp each. (3k for each enhancement.) These are the three things I’m trying to avoid, which is why I disagree with any PC crafting system.
Actually, the spell Find Traps removes them as well. Shadowdancer has Search, Persuade, Listen, Tumble and Spot in class. And unless you take your rogue level at late levels, your ranks in the other skills (Set Trap (?), Pick Lock) will not be very great. If you take them that late, they're not really necessary. With Shadowdancer, he will have something more versatile earlier. And you mention Discipline -- but if he's relying on spells to make him untouchable, why worry about putting points in Discipline?
Salaads that knockdown, young dragons that knockdown, Archer who use called shot. He’ll versatile with Rogue or no levels either way, he can pretty much do the same as this build if he were a pure mage.
You say a mage isn't supposed to blast everything in sight, and then talk about nuking a group with an ice storm.
Yeah. If a group of ogre are in range, I can kill them with them ice instead of disappearing and reappearing like an idiot cast spells.
Personally, I've played in plenty of modules with enemies that are sneak attacking characters, who sneak both when coming out of concealment and when flanking my PC. And having poor AC and HP is an extremely good reason to worry about getting flanked.
I don’t know about you, but I always class combination with access to spot and listen. (Such as CoT build or WM build.) Spot and Listen has saved me from sneak attack from displacement beast many times. I never played games unless I play with a character to access to those skill. You may enjoy getting raped, but I don’t.
And a smart mage with TS, don’t get jumped. And he if does he jump, a smart mage has Precognition, elemental shield and, displacement and mesthil’s steath already up. And as I said before even with UD, his AC still suck.
Or, in the same number of rounds, IGMS+Hide, IGMS+Hide, IGMS+Hide, and IGMS+Hide.
You can’t do that in the same number of rounds. You can only do one action each. And a real mage wouldn’t have to hide. A real mage would have calculated what spell would be need and use those against those enemies.
To put it simply, a Rogue Halfling has the qualities of this build with UMD and wielding a magic wand.
Syrath101: You can do HIPs without walking back. You do can HIPS within battle. The Wind Song is the Rogue’s tactic, where the Rogue disengages and goes into stealth.
Emrill: You so highschool. If I disagree that’s my opinion, I’m to state. Telling everyone to ignore someone is showing how big of idiot you be.
it might be a life safer when TS is not activated and you encounter some hidden opponents, besides you get it at level 2 SD along with evade.
Why would you need if you have protection spells and spell mantles?
And no need to worry about enemies who dispell, which occur frequently in higher level games.
Dispell cannot disepell you unless you CROSS-CLASS too much. I believe the highest dispel is Spell Breach, which used by Rakahasa, who happens to have true seeing. Great SB and Mord Dis aren’t by used by any other creature.
This build is focussed on evocation, this build IS supposed to kill enemies by blasting them to pieces.
And you’ll make the fight longer than it should be. And even when you disappear, some enemies (Cleric and Mage types) continue powering up.
And besides that, who says a mage can't just blast everything in sight if he wants to? You can play a mage in a lot of different ways, depending on how you build it. I have this feeling you are only focussed on PvM and RP, while I didn't have this build made for that specifically.
Even PvP, mage don’t blast everything. I know a two mages, a Elven and Halfling mage, from the basement server who killed everyone with flesh to stone, vampire touch, mesthil’s steath + elemental shield, Horrid Wiltling or GS+Ice Storm. Not once they cast IGM. I played a sorcerer and killed people using Delayed Fireball traps or Darkness Traps. If know how to truly play a mage, you don’t fire your magic off. You just need a couple of spells.
Emrill: You so highschool. If I disagree that’s my opinion, I’m to state. Telling everyone to ignore someone is showing how big of idiot you be.
I love when someone calls another person an idiot with poor grammar. If you had a brain, which you consistantly prove you're lacking, you would realize this build can do everything you are arguing it should do. For some reason you are very hung up on the fact this build can and does use it's HIPS in addition to those.
Here is a game situation for you right out of the OC. You go into the lower levels of the beholder caves where no magic is allowed. A mage is usually in serious trouble down there, but not this mage. It can hide and stealth. Your mage is a sitting target with virtually no offense for every single critter along the way. Also when he gets out he can cast those spells WITHOUT items, because he isn't relying on them.
Like I said I am telling Dom to ignore bad advice that you seem to want to give. Fortunately he seems to be doing that.
Salaads that knockdown, young dragons that knockdown, Archer who use called shot. He’ll versatile with Rogue or no levels either way, he can pretty much do the same as this build if he were a pure mage.
Let me spell it out for you then. My point is that if he follows the path you are suggesting -- relying primarily on concealment for defense -- then there's really no need to take high levels of Discipline. And why would a wizard worry about Called Shot?
Quote: You say a mage isn't supposed to blast everything in sight, and then talk about nuking a group with an ice storm.
Yeah. If a group of ogre are in range, I can kill them with them ice instead of disappearing and reappearing like an idiot cast spells.
Again you miss the point. I was pointing out the inconsistency in your argument. To say that a wizard is not supposed to blast everything and then use blasting a group of enemies as your example makes no sense at all.
Quote: Personally, I've played in plenty of modules with enemies that are sneak attacking characters, who sneak both when coming out of concealment and when flanking my PC. And having poor AC and HP is an extremely good reason to worry about getting flanked.
I don’t know about you, but I always class combination with access to spot and listen. (Such as CoT build or WM build.) Spot and Listen has saved me from sneak attack from displacement beast many times. I never played games unless I play with a character to access to those skill. You may enjoy getting raped, but I don’t.
Myself, I choose class combinations that are different and interesting and lead to fun characters to play, not because of what skills they have. In addition, you ignore my comment about flanking. An attack made while flanking counts as a sneak. True Seeing won't help against that. And I'm not sure the "raped" comment was in good taste.
Quote: And a smart mage with TS, don’t get jumped. And he if does he jump, a smart mage has Precognition, elemental shield and, displacement and mesthil’s steath already up. And as I said before even with UD, his AC still suck.
The only one of those spells that lasts longer than 1 round/level is Premonition (is that what you meant by Precognition? One would think you'd put the effort into learning the name of a spell if you were going to use it in an argument) and that's an 8th level spell. The earliest he could have access to that would be 15th level. Or, he could have his Shadowdancer level as early as 8th. Are you suggesting he keep casting those short duration spells over and over until he enters combat?
Quote: Or, in the same number of rounds, IGMS+Hide, IGMS+Hide, IGMS+Hide, and IGMS+Hide.
You can’t do that in the same number of rounds. You can only do one action each. And a real mage wouldn’t have to hide. A real mage would have calculated what spell would be need and use those against those enemies.
It may be true that he can't do each of that in one round. I haven't put the reasearch into that. Even so, your example puts casting an offensive spell in the 4th or 5th round, whereas my example would put it no later than 2nd, and that's if he wasn't already hidden.
Quote: And no need to worry about enemies who dispell, which occur frequently in higher level games.
Dispell cannot disepell you unless you CROSS-CLASS too much. I believe the highest dispel is Spell Breach, which used by Rakahasa, who happens to have true seeing. Great SB and Mord Dis aren’t by used by any other creature.
I've had more powerful enemies through dispels of various sorts at me. Including high level NPC spellcasters.
Quote: If know how to truly play a mage, you don’t fire your magic off. You just need a couple of spells.
Holy cow, that doesn't even make sense. What does a mage have other than spells, spell versatility, and related abilities?
In the end, your advice would lead to a wizard build as derivative as the rest of your builds. Our man here is asking for advice on how to take his idea and aesthetic and improve it, not change it into something ununique or that fits into your version of what is fun to play.
And why would a wizard worry about Called Shot?
Called Leg slows you down, if you are trying to reposition yourself.
I was pointing out…
You trying to use my words against me and failed. If I have the ability to take out a group of spells rather the using dumbass stealth and magic tactics then I would use the one powerful spells. It saves me time and spell slots.
Holy cow, that doesn't even make sense.
Holy cow, that doesn't even make sense. What does a mage have other than spells, spell versatility, and related abilities?
There is a thing called “pertaining therefore,” which you don’t seem to understand.
Also quote, “You just need a couple of spells.” This was quoted in the same paragraph. Some of you guys kill me with your ignorance.
I've had more powerful enemies through dispels of various sorts at me. Including high level NPC spellcasters.
Let me say this again. The highest dispel used in normal server by monsters is Spell Breach, which is used by Rakahasa. Some dragons use dispel and Balors use greater dispel.
The only one of those spells that lasts longer than 1 round/level is Premonition (is that what you meant by Precognition? One would think you'd put the effort into learning the name of a spell if you were going to use it in an argument)
Because my Microsoft Word auto-fixes some words. It auto fixes Elven to eleven. You can stop being smartass.
In addition, you ignore my comment about flanking.
I didn’t ignore it. I answered it. I say I don’t play anyway server unless I play a build with spot and listen. So I don’t get flanked so much. Plus, NPCs can’t fight like PC so I’m not worried getting “raped” like you.
An attack made while flanking counts as a sneak. True Seeing won't help against that.
The ONLY way you can get Flank while true seeing is if you aren’t paying attention to everything on the screen or what you are doing. YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY miss the Rogue coming up behind you IF YOU HAVE TS. But if a Rogue knocks you down, then he most likely has enough AB to hit you the following rounds. Plus, UD does make you immune to sneak attacks, it allows you to retain your Dex, but AC sucks @$$ anyway and if he’s going to PvP server, getting a immunity to critical or sneak attack item. Lastly, he’s still vulnerable to players with Spot/Listen and TS. If I put my Fighter/Monk/WM do in PvP, he’d be sh*t out of luck since my build gets a 40 in both Spot and Listen.
Like I said, his build no different a Rogue who abuse UMD.
Come to think of it... That's what the guys in Basement and Hall of Training v.1 use to do. Rogue, scroll/wand, disappear and sneak attack.
Called Leg slows you down, if you are trying to reposition yourself.
Sure, ok. But I'm not sure that one reason is worth taking points in Discipline.
Quote: I was pointing out…
You trying to use my words against me and failed. If I have the ability to take out a group of spells rather the using dumbass stealth and magic tactics then I would use the one powerful spells. It saves me time and spell slots.
Holy cow, that doesn't even make sense.
His stealth techniques don't use any spell slots. Your stealth technique does. Therefore, I would say he would have mores slots for those big offensive spells.
Quote: Holy cow, that doesn't even make sense. What does a mage have other than spells, spell versatility, and related abilities?
There is a thing called “pertaining therefore,” which you don’t seem to understand.
Also quote, “You just need a couple of spells.” This was quoted in the same paragraph. Some of you guys kill me with your ignorance.
Nope, I don't understand. Please explain it to me. And use small words since I am so obviously ignorant.
Quote: Let me say this again. The highest dispel used in normal server by monsters is Spell Breach, which is used by Rakahasa. Some dragons use dispel and Balors use greater dispel.
OK, fine. But what about anti-magic areas such as the one in HotU? Or a nonstandard module with nonstandard monsters or areas?
Quote: The only one of those spells that lasts longer than 1 round/level is Premonition (is that what you meant by Precognition? One would think you'd put the effort into learning the name of a spell if you were going to use it in an argument)
Because my Microsoft Word auto-fixes some words. It auto fixes Elven to eleven. You can stop being smartass.
I apologize for being a smartass. I didn't realize you weren't spellchecking.
..... you are going to respond to the rest of what I said, right?
Quote: I didn’t ignore it. I answered it. I say I don’t play anyway server unless I play a build with spot and listen. So I don’t get flanked so much. Plus, NPCs can’t fight like PC so I’m not worried getting “raped” like you.
An attack made while flanking counts as a sneak. True Seeing won't help against that.
The ONLY way you can get Flank while true seeing is if you aren’t paying attention to everything on the screen or what you are doing. YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY miss the Rogue coming up behind you IF YOU HAVE TS. But if a Rogue knocks you down, then he most likely has enough AB to hit you the following rounds. Plus, UD does make you immune to sneak attacks, it allows you to retain your Dex, but AC sucks @$$ anyway and if he’s going to PvP server, getting a immunity to critical or sneak attack item. Lastly, he’s still vulnerable to players with Spot/Listen and TS. If I put my Fighter/Monk/WM do in PvP, he’d be sh*t out of luck since my build gets a 40 in both Spot and Listen.
1) The only way Spot and Listen help against flanking is to draw your attention to someone hiding, before they get into melee. That's true. 2) NPCs with access to Sneak Attack can certainly gain that bonus when attacking from a flanking position. I've seen it. 3) Uncanny Dodge gives you a Dex boost when flat-footed. I don't know if it gives any bonus when flanked, since being flat-footed and being flanked are two different things. 4) Yes, he'd be vulnerable to TS using skill-based stealth -- but he would be if he was using magic-based stealth as well. 5) He'd be SOL against your character if he only relied on skill-based stealth AND was worse at it than you would be at finding him, and he could easily build a character focused on hiding. But with his build, if skills don't work, he could switch to magic.
Quote: Like I said, his build no different a Rogue who abuse UMD.
Come to think of it... That's what the guys in Basement and Hall of Training v.1 use to do. Rogue, scroll/wand, disappear and sneak attack.
I see his build as being far different from that. For someone who posts poorly-done builds and expects the forum readers to fix them for you, you sure are wasting a lot of effort insulting Dim's build for doing what you want it to do and then some.
I didn't really bother to read your last post. I came to realization if I wanted do magic and stealth in PvP, I would use my Puck build and kick the crap out of this one.
I'm sorry, but this build is no different from pure Rogue build who abuse UMD with wands and scrolls.
Did I just move boards from Epic Character builds to RP builds all of a sudden.
Munchkism is as much legitimate in an epic build forum as anything else.
If that means taking 2 levels of SD to get access to 2 highly useful and lowlevel frontloaded feats.
About the only thing I disagree with is being able to use Blackguard/paladin in the same build , at least, when it comes to epic builds. That is a gripe with the game engine and not the build itself.
Since you seem to be so close to Jay (according to your posts) and want to get your builds into the epic page , perhaps you should read it one day
Quote: There is something alluring about Munchkinism. What is Munchkinism you ask? To be a proper Munchkin, you need to be focused on one overwhelming goal: attaining Infinite Cosmic Power. Forget namby-pamby roleplaying. Forget realism. Forget game-balance destroying exploitation of the rules. You want a character so powerful that, in the words of a famous barbarian, "you drive your enemies before you amongst the lamentations of their women". Darn tootin'.
This is why Herbie ammended your bastard sword to a scimitar and changed the builds so he gets 1d6+6 damage instead of your 1d10 damage. Notice the part forget roleplaying, forget realism. IE you can do pretty much anything you want to to further the build and if that means mixing paladin/blackguard so be it.
I didn't really bother to read your last post. I came to realization if I wanted do magic and stealth in PvP, I would use my Puck build and kick the crap out of this one.
I'm sorry, but this build is no different from pure Rogue build who abuse UMD with wands and scrolls.
How is using UMD to use wands and scrolls an abuse. Isnt that what the skill is all about.
Syrath
Scimitar and the bastard make 3 criticals out of 4 hits. Scimitar gets 3.5 of 10 chances to critical 4 times in a row while the bastard only gets 3. You won't know the difference until a mage or bard put a keen spell on your weapon or keen enchanted on the weapon.
In other words, the bastard is still good weapon to usual you use Keen weapon. Please don't talk about how you understand Herbie when used a short sword instead of rapier when I suggested for your build. You said, you had a short because that's what the swashbuckler use to use. Well I have bastard because that's what the knight use. I suggested persuade, you disagreed. Well I disagree with spellcraft because I may run into enemy with Taunt. Try practicing what you preach.
As this build, the person has manage to make build no different from a pure rogue with UMD and a bunch of freaking scrolls. This build accomplishes the same thing as a normal mage can
Scimitar and the bastard make 3 criticals out of 4 hits. Scimitar gets 3.5 of 10 chances to critical 4 times in a row while the bastard only gets 3. You won't know the difference until a mage or bard put a keen spell on your weapon or keen enchanted on the weapon.
Id agree on that , The scimitar is still a good choice for this build though
Quote: In other words, the bastard is still good weapon to usual you use Keen weapon. Please don't talk about how you understand Herbie when used a short sword instead of rapier when I suggested for your build.
Quote: You said, you had a short because that's what the swashbuckler use to use. Well I have bastard because that's what the knight use. I suggested persuade, you disagreed. Well I disagree with spellcraft because I may run into enemy with Taunt. Try practicing what you preach.
I always used a rapier. You never suggested it. If so please show the post. (quote) As this build, the person has manage to make build no different from a pure rogue with UMD and a bunch of freaking scrolls. This build accomplishes the same thing as a normal mage can
I think you will find a rogue with scrolls and wands casts at a much lower level and will never land anything that requires a save. I also asked how using UMD the way it was supposed to was an abuse.
Syrath
Edited By syrath1001 on 08/05/04 08:06
Which one, you have several swashbuckling builds out. Matter a fact. *Sniff, Sniff* Is that a hypocritic I smell. It seems to come from you.
Yeah, but only 2 were post on the excellent build thread.
One was human (the one I would play). The other was elf, which is the one I built for sire of the shadow. The elf came first.
Both used rapiers when I first built them.
I posted a dwarven defender that was similar that also used a rapier, and I post a dual wielder that used shortswords based on the same build.
However in both the swashbuckler build I never ever used a shortsword. So you never ever suggested a correction in using a rapier. Please post your evidence that you did instead of calling me a hypocrit.
Yeah, but only 2 were post on the excellent build thread.(/i)
That doesn't make a damnable difference, you still post more than one unfinish build so you are hypocrite.
Click Here
ROFL here we have the first time I put this build into the excellent build thread.
And your answer.
The first time I built the build I did a rough build at the request of sire of the shadow, I built the build according to his specification. I then spent some time and worked on it to improve it.
That is when i posted it in the build thread. None of these builds had errors (Except that I mistyped the shadowdancer level as 29).
How is this being a hypocrit. I have criticised you for posting builds in epic build forum that have never been tested since they have only existed on paper. These builds I posted could exist and did not have errors on them.
I have never ever posted a build in the excellent or epic forums that couldnt work. Something that you cannot say yourself. How am I being a hypocrit.
Please check the link above and point how where you corrected me to using a rapier and not a short sword
At least when you flame me flame me for something I have done / got wrong / whatever (there is a few out there).
Here is the first thread where I introduced the swashbuckler.
I am now calling you a liar , since you have quite simply stated you suggested that I use a rapier instead of a short sword.
Syrath
Allright...from what I gather you're saying I should use the mage spells and tactics instead. So I can, I can use Ice Storm to disable those ogres you talked about in one spell. I can use GS, invisibility etc, when needed (I can memorize one or use scrolls for those emergencies). The only thing is I can hide anytime I want too, whithout having to cast a spell that uses slots, scrolls or wands. It saves me slots for more spells that do damage, so I won't run out of them that fast and I don't have to flee for resting.
I don't need those protection or hiding spells that often, therefore it's more usefull to have those on scrolls or wands (or memorize 1 incase no wands or scrolls are available) for the times you do need them.
As for the Rogue with UMD: - my spells will be more powerfull - I don't have to buy scrolls or wands everytime, they get used up and resting won't help, unless you got 1 use a day items, but then you'll need a lot of those to do the same.
My build is a stronger and better caster then the Rogue and can do pretty much the same as your wizard only this wizard uses a different strategy of taking out some enemies. Whether you like that strategy or not is not the point.
Edited By Dimundome on 08/05/04 09:43
instead of SD2, take Wizard38/SD1/Monk1. Still get evasion, but you get discipline, from monk skill =)
You also get to add wis bonus to ac.
~ Lock. _________________ "Life builds you up just to tear you down." - 3rd Strike
Edited By Lockindal on 08/05/04 10:03
For whats it's worth on page three it's a nice build. Personally I started playing the OC with classes I have never played before, or trying to play a class with an alternative theme, to keep some interest up. I might try this one
There has been quite a few nice builds around recently, you can find them with a dozen posters ranting for them and TyrPaladin against
Lockindal:
"instead of SD2, take Wizard38/SD1/Monk1. Still get evasion, but you get discipline, from monk skill =)"
Discipline is not needed, opponents won't get near enough to do knockdown and disarm (disarm won't have any effect anyway) and called shot only has some effect on movement speed, but that's no real problem either.
"You also get to add wis bonus to ac."
I have a wisdom penalty, so it won't be of much help in this build. I'd have to increase wisdom first which means lowering one of the other stats, which I prefer not to, also constitution would be more usefull IMO.
Edited By Dimundome on 08/05/04 11:06
I actually went a slightly more roguish route that I emailed Dom. It was a 36 Wiz/1 Rogue/3 SD. That route gave uncanny dodge 1 and shadow daze. It is extremely powerful using PRC, capable of learning every epic spell available (with epic spellcraft gloves).
On a side note, Tyr, you still haven't answered how your version of this mage without any stealth would handle the dead magic zone in HotU. I know Dom's version is more than able in there. Your version dies to the first swarm of spiders and ettercaps, because it has no way yo bypass them and without any magic, you have nothing to kill them with effectively.
If you are talking about the HotU campaign I've never played that.
I loved that section. I just summoned my shadow, went invis and let it take care of everything.
If you are talking about the HotU campaign I've never played that.
That explains a WHOLE lot.
Sorry if I'm not stupid enough to play a game with a fix storyline and the ability to hak into it. I play on modules with REAL people. You know they are other people who exist outside of you? Anyway, I play on their modules.
ROFL
What does how you play have to do with my question?
My question was how would your pure mage build handle a dead magic zone? The build posted here has a way. The build here still can do EVERYTHING you are saying it should. Just because the build here uses stealth as well as all those things you keep insisting he overlooked (which he hasn't) you have some bug up your backside about it.
Quote: Posted 08/05/04 11:04:50 (GMT) -- Dimundome "You also get to add wis bonus to ac."
I have a wisdom penalty, so it won't be of much help in this build. I'd have to increase wisdom first which means lowering one of the other stats, which I prefer not to, also constitution would be more usefull IMO.
Maximized "Owl's Wisdom" -> free +1 AC. Get items that raise wisdom from stats and suddenly your ac is prettier ;P
and I think you underestimate the means some people have of spotting/finding you. Ever hear of true sight? Yah. You might need that discipline after all. ;P
~ Lock. _________________ "Life builds you up just to tear you down." - 3rd Strike
I don't even know what magic dead zone is to even comment, but I have been situation where I was cut off from my magic back in original NWN in the Path of Ascension module. The silence bug cuts you off without a save. I would suffer from silence when going into the tombs, but before going in, I would cast a balor spell and let the balor whoop up the undead, bodaks and death knights.
Maximized "Owl's Wisdom" -> free +1 AC. Get items that raise wisdom from stats and suddenly your ac is prettier ;P
I believe there are better spells to get more AC, if you really need it. And instead of items that boost wisdom, I'd rather use those items for getting other stuff, there are some items wich give more AC bonus then a boost of wisdom would get you (2 wisdom = 1 AC).
and I think you underestimate the means some people have of spotting/finding you. Ever hear of true sight? Yah. You might need that discipline after all. ;P
Only knockdown would be a threat then, but taking a class just for that doesn't seem really worth it. Melee builds with knockdown will probably succeed anyway if they ever get the chance to use it even if I have some points in it. I still have a couple of spells to boost AC for emergencies like that though, I was able to take out a prismatic dragon (has true seeing if I'm correct) in a trainer mod, without any other equipment then a robe wich gave +7 AC (total AC of 30).
and I think you underestimate the means some people have of spotting/finding you. Ever hear of true sight? Yah. You might need that discipline after all. ;P
Only knockdown would be a threat then, but taking a class just for that doesn't seem really worth it. Melee builds with knockdown will probably succeed anyway if they ever get the chance to use it even if I have some points in it. I still have a couple of spells to boost AC for emergencies like that though, I was able to take out a prismatic dragon (has true seeing if I'm correct) in a trainer mod, without any other equipment then a robe wich gave +7 AC (total AC of 30).(/quote)
That Pristmatic Dragon sucks. Play a on module with a dragon of 35 to 45 AB at least. Your wizard would get his @## kicked.
That Pristmatic Dragon sucks. Play a on module with a dragon of 35 to 45 AB at least. Your wizard would get his @## kicked.
Most other builds I tested had quite some trouble with that Prismatic Dragon (level 40). It uses a lot of magic, very little melee attacks, so AB wouldn't matter much.
The only other high level dragon I could test against was a Shadow dragon (level 36-40), that one wasn't to difficult either.
But if you could find me a trainer/test module that has those more powerfull dragons you're talking about I would gladly try it
But what do you lose from taking 1 monk instead of 2 SD?
Nothing.
But you gain discipline.
So what is your problem with it again?
~ Lock. _________________ "Life builds you up just to tear you down." - 3rd Strike
Darkvision and Uncanny Dodge
Syrath
I'd have to agree having only 21 Disc, and having uncanny dodge as well is better than 40-43 Disc on this build.
Quote: Posted 08/05/04 02:52:42 (GMT) -- TyrPaladin Like I said, his build no different a Rogue who abuse UMD.
Just a few pointers to Tyrpaladins non abuse in this manner
BTW Im not against the use of using the system this way. Its as much legitimate as taking exactly 4 levels of fighter to get Weapon Specialisation. It might not be sound RP value. Tyrpaladin is against this sort of abuse. You can see this from the examples of the builds posted above.
What I love about this is 44 ranks in the skills.
I had noticed .
Syrath
The main question I have is why 2 shadow dancer levels, if you are munchkinizing you might as well only take one level for hips at level 40 and then max your hide skills. Taking 2 levels doesn't get you anything worthwhile. Maybe take a level in some other class like monk and get some discipline as well as hide skills.
2 levels gives you uncanny dodge - dont lose dex bonus when flatfooted. Evasion - reflex save reduces damage to zero. Darkvision - See in the dark (supposedly)
Seems worthwhile to me.
syrath
Not for uncanny dodge since the main point of the sd level is hips which comes at level 1. You are hiding not trying to tank. The evasion is worth it though.
Not for uncanny dodge since the main point of the sd level is hips which comes at level 1. You are hiding not trying to tank. The evasion is worth it though.
It's indeed for the evasion feat, uncanny dodge might be usefull in some occasions (when caught off guard, for whatever reason ), but should indeed not be necessary.
You are ofcourse free to adapt it to your liking if you want, it just depends on how you like to play. I have an adapted version with some rogue levels, which is more playable.
)
"Monsters on the other cannot respond to a character under the influence of GS"
