This weekend, I got my Complete Warrior back from a friend of mine. Flipping through it, I saw the Master Thrower PrC and wondered, "Hey, could this work in NWN?" So I tried it out. I made two versions -- this one, and a Fighter/Monk/BG version. The second version turned out to be closer to the PnP PrC from a feats perspective, but this one is at least as effective, if not more. If people want, I'll post that version in this thread later today.
Halfling, any Evil
Stats: STR 12 DEX 18 CON 10 INT 14 WIS 8 CHR 14
Level Allocation: Fighter x 4 Rogue x 8 Blackguard x 8 Fighter x 1 Rogue x 2 Fighter x 1 Blackguard x 5 Rogue x 3 Fighter x 8
Feats: Level 1: Weapon Focus: Dart, Point Blank Shot Level 2: Rapid Shot Level 3: Dodge Level 4: Weapon Specialization: Dart Level 6: Power Attack Level 9: Cleave Level 12: Called Shot Level 15: Divine Might Level 18: Toughness Level 21: Great Dex I Level 23: Improved Evasion Level 24: EWF: Dart, EWS: Dart Level 27: Divine Shield Level 29: Epic Toughness I Level 30: Great Dex II Level 32: Defensive Roll Level 33: Epic Dodge Level 34: Armor Skin Level 36: Epic Toughness II, Great Charisma I Level 38: Blind-Fight Level 39: Great Charisma II Level 40: Epic Prowess
This build was tested in "Novice to Epic Character Maker CEP Edition". Feats can be taken when shown, and if skills are allocated correctly, PrCs can be as well.
You should have plenty of skill ranks to play with. I had 35 in Discipline, Hide, Move Silently, Persuade, Lore, Search, and Tumble.
Tweaks and suggestions welcome. _________________ ------------------------------- "What do you fear most in the world?" "The possibility that love is not enough." -- Major Garland Briggs, Twin Peaks
This weekend, I got my Complete Warrior back from a friend of mine. Flipping through it, I saw the Master Thrower PrC and wondered, "Hey, could this work in NWN?" So I tried it out. I made two versions -- this one, and a Fighter/Monk/BG version. The second version turned out to be closer to the PnP PrC from a feats perspective, but this one is at least as effective, if not more. If people want, I'll post that version in this thread later today.
Halfling, any Evil
Stats: STR 12 DEX 18 CON 10 INT 14 WIS 8 CHR 14
Level Allocation: Fighter x 4 Rogue x 8 Blackguard x 8 Fighter x 1 Rogue x 2 Fighter x 1 Blackguard x 5 Rogue x 3 Fighter x 8
Feats: Level 1: Weapon Focus: Dart, Point Blank Shot Level 2: Rapid Shot Level 3: Dodge Level 4: Weapon Specialization: Dart Level 6: Power Attack Level 9: Cleave Level 12: Called Shot Level 15: Divine Might Level 18: Toughness Level 21: Great Dex I Level 23: Improved Evasion Level 24: EWF: Dart, EWS: Dart Level 27: Divine Shield Level 29: Epic Toughness I Level 30: Great Dex II Level 32: Defensive Roll Level 33: Epic Dodge Level 34: Armor Skin Level 36: Epic Toughness II, Great Charisma I Level 38: Blind-Fight Level 39: Great Charisma II Level 40: Epic Prowess
This build was tested in "Novice to Epic Character Maker CEP Edition". Feats can be taken when shown, and if skills are allocated correctly, PrCs can be as well.
You should have plenty of skill ranks to play with. I had 35 in Discipline, Hide, Move Silently, Persuade, Lore, Search, and Tumble.
Tweaks and suggestions welcome.
Try giving us the full results, instead of posting feats. This tells me little about your characters. _________________ Which Stick are you? Click Here
Try giving us the full results, instead of posting feats. This tells me little about your characters.
Very well, TyrPaladin, what would you like to know? All of the information I didn't include I figured could be best left up to the individual player to determine. _________________ ------------------------------- "What do you fear most in the world?" "The possibility that love is not enough." -- Major Garland Briggs, Twin Peaks
Try giving us the full results, instead of posting feats. This tells me little about your characters.
Very well, TyrPaladin, what would you like to know? All of the information I didn't include I figured could be best left up to the individual player to determine.
You're tell me you can't configure the HP, Saves and AB? The results can't be different if they follow the build through without tweaking it. _________________ Which Stick are you? Click Here
You're tell me you can't configure the HP, Saves and AB? The results can't be different if they follow the build through without tweaking it.
That's right. Why should I bother posting it then?
For those who wish to know, off the top of my head, I remember:
Final BAB: +40/+35/+30/+25 Final HP: ~320 Final Saves: Fort 26, Ref 21, Will 17 (I calculated these from the HotU manual.
So tell me what does this build offer other than the fact that it can save and throw darts for a possible 57 (4x 57 = 228 maximum.) damage? If I want to sneak attack with darts, I'll use my Puck build. I'll get +37 AB instead of +40, but he'll get a sneak attack 106 damage. (4x106 = 424 maximum) _________________ Which Stick are you? Click Here
So tell me what does this build offer other than the fact that it can save and throw darts for a possible 57 (4x 57 = 228 maximum.) damage? If I want to sneak attack with darts, I'll use my Puck build. I'll get +37 AB instead of +40, but he'll get a sneak attack 106 damage. (4x106 = 424 maximum)
First of all, TyrPaladin, in the General Discussion forum, you threw a significant hissy fit about receiving comments like that in your builds. I made the choices I made in order to create a certain type of character. I was not posting a build to have it judged against other builds.
Second. Your Puck build provides a maximum Dart damage of 1d4+17d6 when Sneaking. That's a minimum damage of 18 and a maximum of 106 -- when Sneaking. Otherwise, you'd do 1-4 damage, with 4 attacks per round. With my character's darts, we get 1d4+7+5 divine without Sneak. With +11d6 Sneak (7 from Rogue, 4 from Blackguard), that comes to minimum 24, maximum 82. Five times per round. Your total maximum damage -- when Sneaking -- would be 424. Mine would be 410 -- a difference of only 14 points. And when NOT Sneaking, your damage would be a maximum 16 with darts. Mine would be 52 -- more than 3 times yours. And that's if I find no STR or CHR raising items.
In addition it has higher saves, better BAB, turning capabilities, comprable stealth capabilities (HIPS and SelfConceal notwithstanding), higher possible hit points and higher AC. Your build has more skill points and because it was built to be a melee fighter, is more powerful in melee. 'Course, this character can throw while in melee with a higher min damage than you with your shortswords.
But in the end, none of this really matters. People who want to play the type of build you have built will do so. People who want to play this one will. _________________ ------------------------------- "What do you fear most in the world?" "The possibility that love is not enough." -- Major Garland Briggs, Twin Peaks
First of all, TyrPaladin, in the General Discussion forum, you threw a significant hissy fit about receiving comments like that in your builds. I made the choices I made in order to create a certain type of character. I was not posting a build to have it judged against other builds.
...sucks doesn't it when someone pisses on your build.
Second. Your Puck build provides a maximum Dart damage of 1d4+17d6 when Sneaking.
...Which is possibility of 106 damage.
With my character's darts, we get 1d4+7+5 divine without Sneak. With +11d6 Sneak (7 from Rogue, 4 from Blackguard), that comes to minimum 24, maximum 82.
...That part I didn't know since I don't play with BG/Rog combination to much. No server supports evil.
And when NOT Sneaking, your damage would be a maximum 16 with darts. Mine would be 52 -- more than 3 times yours. And that's if I find no STR or CHR raising items.
...Sweet, but more than likely I'll melee whatever gets in my way.
In addition it has higher saves, better BAB (only when throwing), turning capabilities, comprable stealth capabilities (HIPS and SelfConceal notwithstanding), higher possible hit points and higher AC. Your build has more skill points and because it was built to be a melee fighter, is more powerful in melee.
...Don't you get a familiar?
...My build was built to exploit sneak attack. It just as good as a archer as it is a fighter. I got to test in the current PnP server I'm in. He does up to 160 to 382 average a round when sneaking attacking with a bow.
'Course, this character can throw while in melee with a higher min damage than you with your shortswords.
...If someone gets close to you, you are pretty screwed my friend. You get 27 AC and +5 point for 5 rounds and you would have to recast them every 5 round and you can't fight worth crap up close. (No melee weapon of choice)
...I get 29 AC, a self-concealment, Epic Dodge and HIPs if things get ugly and I can melee very bloody well. _________________ Which Stick are you? Click Here
Edited By TyrPaladin on 08/10/04 03:07
Damn TyrPaladin, give it a rest already. Stop the complaining.
kreestopearq, the only thing I would do is lower DEX by 1 to start, put those two point in STR, then raise DEX at 4th instead of STR. Good build.
...If someone gets close to you, you are pretty screwed my friend. You get 27 AC and +5 point for 5 rounds and you would have to recast them every 5 round and you can't fight worth crap up close. (No melee weapon of choice)
...I get 29 AC, a self-concealment, Epic Dodge and HIPs if things get ugly and I can melee very bloody well.
I get access to a summonable fiend, if that's what you mean.
Actually, he's just fine up close. With Point Blank Shot, there's no AoO for using a ranged weapon in melee. So he can throw darts nice and close. _________________ ------------------------------- "What do you fear most in the world?" "The possibility that love is not enough." -- Major Garland Briggs, Twin Peaks
Its with comments like the ones posted here that has everyone endeared so much to Tyrpaladin that not one person has spoken up in actual support of her in the general forum.
Syrath
...sucks doesn't it when someone pisses on your build.
Then WHY do you do it? If you don't want it to happen to you, then don't do it to others either (even if they do it) or it'll make you just as bad.
If I want to sneak attack with darts, I'll use my Puck build.
Why do you keep comparing someone's builds to completely different builds which can do some of the same stuff, but usually differ on other points. He wanted a build specialized in throwing weapons and use some other options. If he wanted to make something like your puck build (which is probably a very good build, haven't used/tested it yet though), he'd probably have used your build instead of making his own. The idea is to improve the build he thought out, not to point out which build would be better and all use that one. Then we would all end up using only 5 different builds or so, now where's the fun of that?
Don't rely on that fiend to much. It will only be a level 12 summon and a weak one at that. It does offer a minor distraction to maybe get a few sneak throws in though.
Also Tyr, you really need to get a new life. The one you have is very sad.
Damn TyrPaladin, give it a rest already.
……no.
I get access to a summonable fiend, if that's what you mean.
…quote, "Don’t you get a familiar."
...With Point Blank Shot, there's no AoO for using a ranged weapon in melee.
...You still AOO, you don’t lose AB throwing up close.
Its with comments like the ones posted here that has everyone endeared so much to Tyrpaladin that not one person has spoken up in actual support of her in the general forum.
...Your point?
If you don't want it to happen to you,
...It already has. _________________ Which Stick are you? Click Here
I get access to a summonable fiend, if that's what you mean.
…quote, "Don’t you get a familiar."[/quote}
I know that's what you asked. I figured you meant the fiend, since NONE of the classes I mentioned involved familiars. None of them SHOULD involve familiars. I have no idea why you asked that.
And Emrill, the fiend isn't really even a consideration on how I would play the build. It's just some low-level gravy.
(quote)...With Point Blank Shot, there's no AoO for using a ranged weapon in melee.
...You still AOO, you don’t lose AB throwing up close.
That's just plain wrong. I know that's what the manual says, but from what I've seen, using ranged weapons in melee with Point Blank Shot does not provoke AoOs. I've tried it with several builds, including this one. Someone else can correct me if that's wrong.
Quote: Posted 08/10/04 14:24:24 (GMT) -- kreestopearq That's just plain wrong. I know that's what the manual says, but from what I've seen, using ranged weapons in melee with Point Blank Shot does not provoke AoOs. I've tried it with several builds, including this one. Someone else can correct me if that's wrong.
Ultimate Archer, as well as some of my wannabe archer builds in the past have suffer AOOs when up close even with point blank shot. The only time you don't set off an AOO up-close is when you are concealed. _________________ Which Stick are you? Click Here
When people post a build I imagine constructive critisism is wanted and even needed. TyrPaladin you seem to comment on peoples' builds in the wrong way. If someone's build is lacking in some areas just nicely post that they are. Don't belittle their build and say that you would rather use your own build then theirs. No one cares what build you would rather use. Just give a helpful comment and leave it at that. I don't have time to scroll through and read all the arguments you cause because it makes a simple thread become so long and pointless and you always seem to have to get the last word in.
Just stop and think for a second: if alot of people are getting upset by your posts you should probably change how you post. Majority rules I always say.
As much as I don't like tyr, I think she is correct ont he point blank shot with AoO. If you are not getting them while using a ranged weapon in melee, you have a decent rank in tumble or spring attack preventing them.
Quote: Posted 08/10/04 16:28:32 (GMT) -- Emrill
As much as I don't like tyr, I think she is correct ont he point blank shot with AoO. If you are not getting them while using a ranged weapon in melee, you have a decent rank in tumble or spring attack preventing them.
Fair enough. My ranged weapon builds tend to have plenty of Tumble, which would make AoOs a non-issue -- which would be why I haven't observed problems with them. In any event, this build would be just as effective in melee because of Point Blank Shot and Tumble.
Just stop and think for a second: if alot of people are getting upset by your posts you should probably change how you post. Majority rules I always say.
...no.
Fair enough. My ranged weapon builds tend to have plenty of Tumble, which would make AoOs a non-issue -- which would be why I haven't observed problems with them. In any event, this build would be just as effective in melee because of Point Blank Shot and Tumble.
....I've said this before in original NWN, Mobility is a must have for any long range build. _________________ Which Stick are you? Click Here
Fair enough. My ranged weapon builds tend to have plenty of Tumble, which would make AoOs a non-issue -- which would be why I haven't observed problems with them. In any event, this build would be just as effective in melee because of Point Blank Shot and Tumble.
....I've said this before in original NWN, Mobility is a must have for any long range build.
Actually mobilty won't keep you from gettign AoO either. It just grants a +4 AC bonus against them. The only two things that guarantee no AoO are spring attack for moving in combat, and improved combat casting for casting in combat. Even tumble isn't a 100% thing as you could always roll a 1 on a tumble check to avoid an AoO.
Fair enough. My ranged weapon builds tend to have plenty of Tumble, which would make AoOs a non-issue -- which would be why I haven't observed problems with them. In any event, this build would be just as effective in melee because of Point Blank Shot and Tumble.
....I've said this before in original NWN, Mobility is a must have for any long range build.
Actually mobilty won't keep you from gettign AoO either. It just grants a +4 AC bonus against them. The only two things that guarantee no AoO are spring attack for moving in combat, and improved combat casting for casting in combat. Even tumble isn't a 100% thing as you could always roll a 1 on a tumble check to avoid an AoO.
4 AC is better than no AC. _________________ Which Stick are you? Click Here
This is kind of a feat-light build as it stands right now, and I'm not sure the 4 effective AC from Mobility is worth the feat. _________________ ------------------------------- "What do you fear most in the world?" "The possibility that love is not enough." -- Major Garland Briggs, Twin Peaks
It really isn't if you have 20+ tumble. Also Tyr, your logic is flawed a bit with the AC thing. If you are going for the spring attack feat, the AC from mobility won't matter as you'll never have an AoO against you to have that come into effect. The builds that go the tumble route, usually are dex builds that have a very high AC, so 4 more points will usually end up in the opponent still needing a 20 to hit you.
Same as an 2 extra wisdom to a 17 Wisdom Battle Cleric. The choice to pick the feat is up to you.
Not quite the same, but you are correct in that it is his choice to take the feat.
Quote: Posted 08/10/04 22:36:08 (GMT) -- Emrill
Not quite the same, but you are correct in that it is his choice to take the feat.
Actually it is the same thing.
Also if you ask any expert archer maker, mobility is a must, but you are the creator of this build what you think works, works. _________________ Which Stick are you? Click Here
Also if you ask any expert archer maker, mobility is a must, but you are the creator of this build what you think works, works.
Wow I guess 3 of the 3 builds featured on past Bioware wednesdays must not be expert archer builders as they don't have mobility, but instead rely on tumble.
Also 3 of the 4 take rapid shot, which you always seem to ignore on your archer builds.
The one that doesn't in both cases is the dragon savant build, which really isnt an archer.
Edited By Emrill on 08/10/04 23:27
Wow I guess 3 of the 3 builds featured on past Bioware wednesdays must not be expert archer builders as they don't have mobility, but instead rely on tumble.
Bewildering Archer was made by Lock. And not Lock's makes bad builds. They are pretty good, but Lock's builds always feats he doesn't need like improve initiative, energy resistance, etc. Moves he can trade for dodge or mobility.
Rogue archer has mobility by the way.
Reliable Archer is just like Lock's Bewildering Archer. He puts feats, he doesn't need on his archer.
Also 3 of the 4 take rapid shot, which you always seem to ignore on your archer builds.
...Both Battle Archer and Ultimate Archer has rapid. Ultimate Archer ALWAYS had rapid shot.
The one that doesn't in both cases is the dragon savant build, which really isnt an archer.
...Then why did you mention it. We all know it's meant to be a druid build not an archer, but why did you mention it. _________________ Which Stick are you? Click Here
Yeah, my Holy Archer build doesn't have Mobility either, and he does just fine.
Yeah, my Holy Archer build doesn't have Mobility either, and he does just fine.
...You got Holy Archer build? You can make archers?!
*Rush to go look the Holy Archer build and trip over a couple of object on the way. Looks at the Holy Archer build*
84 AB? Fawking liar. And plus your build is mostly likely wearing heavy armor and you have a cleric's Magical Vestment, Mage Armor, Divine Shield and Shield of Faith for 39 to 41 AC, yeah. I can see why you can do just fine. _________________ Which Stick are you? Click Here
Yeah, my Holy Archer build doesn't have Mobility either, and he does just fine.
...You got Holy Archer build? You can make archers?!
*Rush to go look the Holy Archer build and trip over a couple of object on the way. Looks at the Holy Archer build*
84 AB? Fawking liar. And plus your build is mostly likely wearing heavy armor and you have a cleric's Magical Vestment, Mage Armor, Divine Shield and Shield of Faith for 39 to 41 AC, yeah. I can see why you can do just fine.
Yep. Heavy Armor. Works well, no need for Mobility. Is there something wrong with that?
And what possible reason would I have to lie? I don't have my self-worth invested in NWN builds. _________________ ------------------------------- "What do you fear most in the world?" "The possibility that love is not enough." -- Major Garland Briggs, Twin Peaks
I may not be sorting the thread from the mudslinging sufficiently to be on the right track here, but spring attack doesn't stop all AoOs, only those resulting from moving in/out of combat, ya? So the AoO provoked by using ranged in melee will still occur, isn't that right?
And same for tumble. It doesn't stop all AoOs, only those resulting from moving in/out of combat, ya? (Tumble also doesn't avoid the AoO provoked by casting does it?)
Now that comment about concealment having it's % chance to avoid the AoO makes sense. The AoO would still be made though, ya?
Rapid shot nearly compensates for the AoO though, and would totally compensate if not for the -2, correct? As in, they get an extra attack but so do I.
Don't rely on that fiend to much. It will only be a level 12 summon and a weak one at that. It does offer a minor distraction to maybe get a few sneak throws in though.