This version of Quicksliver should actually work because it has improved evasion. The first version I made didn’t, because I thought only regular evasion was needed for Epic Dodge (and I wasn't able to test the build properly because of server restrictions). Doing this build the right way loses you 1 AB and 2 non-epic feats, but gains you 20 skill points and of course improved evasion and a few other SD bonuses. Since I could use 10 of those extra skill points for tumble, this build gained 2 ac on the previous one. Since the previous build only had 16 wisdom, it could only cast level 6 spells, and so losing a level of cleric doesn’t make any difference, except possibly in spell slots. I built this because I wanted to try a 50% conceal/Epic Dodge build after syrath pointed out a few things I hadn’t realized about them. I think it turned out pretty well, and I was surprised that I couldn’t find a single Cleric/SD build in the index, so at least this is something new. You’ll note that I didn’t go the Self Conceal V route... instead I picked up improved invisibility. Also, I didn’t misspell the name. It’s supposed to be sliver. Race: Dwarf Starting Stats (Ending Stats) STR 14 DEX 16 (26) CON 10 WIS 16 INT 12 CHA 6
1 Fighter-Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse 2 Fighter-Toughness 3 Fighter-Lightning Reflexes 4 Fighter-Weapon Specialization: Rapier 5 Cleric- Trickery and Travel Domains 6 Cleric-Combat Casting 7 Cleric- 8 Cleric- 9 Cleric- Iron Will 10 Cleric- 11 Cleric- 12 Cleric- Great Fortitude 13 Fighter- 14 Fighter- Improved Critical: Rapier 15 Fighter- Skill Focus: Discipline 16 Fighter- Dodge 17 Fighter- 18 Fighter- Extend Spell, Mobility 19 Fighter- 20 Fighter- Blind Fight (or if you want Spring Attack, you can grab Blind Fight instead of Great Fortitude and Spring Attack here.) 21 Fighter- Epic Weapon Focus: Rapier 22 Fighter- Epic Weapon Specialization: Rapier 23 Cleric- 24 Cleric- Epic Prowess 25 Cleric- 26 Cleric- 27 Shadowdancer- Armor Skin 28 Shadowdancer- 29 Shadowdancer- 30 Shadowdancer- Epic Skill Focus: Discipline 31 Shadowdancer- 32 Shadowdancer- 33 Shadowdancer- Epic Reflexes 34 Shadowdancer- 35 Shadowdancer- 36 Shadowdancer- Epic Dodge 37 Fighter- 38 Fighter- Epic Prowess 39 Cleric- Epic Energy Resistance: Fire I 40 Cleric- Skill points will be tight, I suggest using them as follows: Hide 10 (For SD) Move Silently 8 (For SD) Tumble 20 (5 needed for SD, 15 done as SD) +4 AC Concentration 40 Spellcraft 30 (with dwarven +2 v spells on top of this, you get the usual +8 v spells) Discipline 35 (with skill focus and epic skill focus, you get +13, so it’s actually 48 baseline)
Final stats: HP: 392 [16*10 (fighter) + 14*8 (cleric) + 10*8 (shadowdancer) + 40 (toughness)] 24 AC Naked, Unspelled With a mundane rapier, AB: +40/+35/+30/+25, dmg: 1-6 + 8 (15-20 x2) The following saves may be slightly different because of different pre-epic class progression, but should be within a point of the following, if not the same: Fortitude: 26 (+8 against spells) Reflex: 30 (+8 against spells, plus imp. evasion) Will: 24 (+8 against spells) Epic Dodge 10/- Fire Res.
Now, the following spells when extended, should last about half an hour (real time): neg. energy protection shield of faith bless death ward imp invis Without extend, these should last about half an hour (real time) as well: darkfire magic vest greater magic wep And then you have haste, which when extended will last 30 rounds.
With all spells including haste, and a mundane robe and rapier, you get: AB: 46/46/41/36/31 Dmg: 1-6 +8 +5 Piercing +10 Fire AC: 37 Immune: Negative Level Ability Decrease Negative Energy Death Magic
And you have 50% Concealment and Epic Dodge.
Without haste, 33 AC and one less attack per round. If you can get a haste item on your server, all of your buffs are long term. You also have shadow evade, but I’m not entirely positive on the stats for that, or how long it lasts (the server I was testing this build on doesn’t allow SD, and I’ve never done an SD before).
Pros: Decent naked AC. Can wear heavy armor, but at loss of dex bonus. Solid AB. Nice reflex save, decent fort/will. Improved Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Defensive Roll. 50% Conceal and Epic Dodge. When spelled, damage output at least isn’t godawful and includes elemental. Immunity to Death Magic. Can cast heal. 10/- Fire res.
Cons: HP is somewhat low, but can cast heal. Damage output isn’t great. Low number of skill points to work with. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 10/10/07 13:19
Using armor on a dex build is a little inefficient.
The reason is as follows, if you are a dex build chances are you are on a medium magic server at least. You should be able to get your hands on at least a +6 dex item.
So lets say you start with 16 dex and end at level 40 with 26 dex. Thats 32 dex
Plate armor 10 BASE AC +1 MAX dex bonus +8 Armor for a total of unadjusted 19
DEX with clothes 10 BASE AC +11 DEX bonus +0 due to clothes for a total of unadjusted 21.
The Plate armor will never get any better unless the actual items get better ie from plate +5 to plate +7.
Whereas the dex build could go from robes (or bracer of armor) +5 to +7 and also get an increase in due to a higher dex item.
Syrath
I didn't suggest using armor, just pointed out that it was possible in theory, at a loss of the dex bonus (if there was some ridiculously powerful heavy armor on your server, but no comparable clothing). And as you level up it's nice to be able to wear full armor until your dex bonus exceeds it.
Also I wanted to point out another pro for this build, and I can't believe I forgot it in the first place considering how much I hate IGMS. You have access to both greater sanc and silence. Yay. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
I was just thinking about how to improve on this build and it seems like 40 points in concentration is a bad investment for a melee fighting 50% concealing epic dodger. 15 of those points would probably be much better spent in tumble as SD for an extra 3 ac. (can't max tumble unless you take epic dodge later). You might also want to redistribute some of the concentration points into discipline (also less important in this build, so probably not) and spellcraft. You could have 54 discipline (with the +13) and +10 to saves v. spells. I'd probably change it to: 25 concentration 40 spellcraft 25 discipline 35 tumble _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
Very nice build I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like it. I can see you paticularly don't like spells cast upon you. It is very versitile and you left a lot of room for people to change and it would still work well. You could also choose to be an elf and have 8 cha instead of 6. That wouldn't make much sense though because you might suffer an exp penalty and you lose some great bonus feats. But could be good if somone wanted to rp this build. CS
Edited By ctasemelka on 09/12/04 16:32
Quote: Posted 09/12/04 16:10:39 (GMT) -- ctasemelka You could also choose to be an elf and have 8 cha instead of 6.
Thanks. I think this is easily my favorite build I've made so far. Elf would be a good choice because you could get your dex higher to start. The primary reason I took dwarf is for the extra +2 against spells (like you said I hate being cast upon.) Since I started playing this character I've made a few tweaks that I think improve the build; thought I might as well take this opportunity to post those too: Starting stats: 12 Str 14 Int Why? Because you were strangled for skills at 12 int, and 1 damage is outweighed considerably by that need.
Elf is a very good option. You can start with 18 dex, but you'd have to lower something by 2 (because con would start at 6). Con at 8 wouldn't kill you, especially since you can heal, and neither would str at 10.
For epic feats, I made one mistake, and that was I had Epic Prowess in there twice (I really don't know why). Take out the one at 24 and make that Epic Fortitude or something else of your choosing. I'd also drop the Epic Reflexes (because you already have imp evasion) for Epic Will. Now your saves should be approximately: 30/26/28, +10 against spells if you keep dorf as your race (and pump spellcraft to 40). (this one applies especially if you take 14 int) I'd drop the epic skill focus: disc (might as well keep the regular one, you don't really need the feat... unless you want some metamagic feat). If you do that, you can now get Epic Reflexes too, or if you prefer, something like Epic Energy Res: Acid. If you take epic ref/will/fort, you'll have 30/30/28 saves I believe, or something comparable to that (I really need to test out this tweaked version all the way to 40.. I will soon). That's 40/40/38 against a caster. Shweet. I'll give definite numbers after I test this build out.
Skill points: it depends on low magic or high magic.. If your ac is low enough that you still get hit fairly frequently, you'll probably want to have the following (with 14 int instead of 12): 10 hide (for SD) 8 move silently (for SD) 35 tumble (5 for SD, 30 as SD) 40 spellcraft 43 concentration 41 discipline (a few leftover, like.. 6 perhaps?) But if you're on high-magic and only get hit on 20s, you'd probably be safe to de-prioritize conc/disc, perhaps in favor of hide/move silently or listen/spot, whatever you like.
Anyways it comes down to your preferences. I just thought I'd point out what I think would make the build better. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
Also I wanted to see if anyone could answer this question pertaining to Epic Dodge: With epic dodge, is discipline even a necessary skill? It seems like any skill involving a disc. check would be the first of the round, and therefore automatically evaded, assuming it even hits. Is this the case? If it is you can free up some skill points right there. (and definitely drop the skill focus: disc .feat, probably in favor of sf: conc., or whatever else you might like) _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
I believe it would still be a useful skill. The reason is that I'm pretty sure characters can make multiple attempts at IKD or ID in a round; actually, unless I'm mistaken, ALL attacks in a round can be made with IKD or ID. Thus, it would be well worth it to have a nice high Discipline score if you don't want to get knocked down. The only way Discipline might not be worth it is if your AC was so high that you would almost never get hit anyway. Then, you might not have to worry about it too much.
I don't know how I missed this erlier! Why don't you just switch the fighter class to ranger youd get 4 skill points per level you could dual wield. You lose your heavy armor prof and some feats but i think it is well worth it. you wouldn't need sk foc disipline any more and you could get hide and move silently if you wanted. IMO it would make it a lot better. I might even post my own modifief version of this build (if you don't mind).
Edited By ctasemelka on 09/15/04 20:53
You would gain the DW feats but you would lose +6 to damage (weapon specialisation.epic weapon specialisation)
Syrath
Ranger is a good option, but you'd have to carefully weigh out the costs and benefits. Well you'd lose 6 damage per hit and 8 feats if you did that. Your saves would be 2 lower across the board, which isn't a huge deal, and you'd have 7 pre-epic feats (or 8 if you went human, in which case your saves would be -4 v spells across the board), which would limit you to: wfocus wfinesse blind fight imp crit dodge mobility toughness (or heavy armor) You'd also miss out on 2 epic feats (one of which was epic weapon spec, so really just 1) And your damage output would be 1-8 + 2, which needless to say is very poor for a melee fighter. Ultimately it comes down to what you think is worth it, but I personally tend to think that this build doesn't need hide/move silently. Sure they're nice, but the extra saves and damage output far outweigh them in my opinion. It also will depend a lot on your server... if true sight isn't nerfed, hide/move silently aren't worth much.
It also occurs to me that HIPS would be nice for healing/respelling. If hide worked well on your server, it would be really nice to drop out of sight, heal and spell yourself back fully, then come out swinging again. You could even drop concentration entirely. Definitely something to consider.
Also it's important to consider that you'd suffer -4 ab if you dual wielded, plus your AC would suffer considerably between the loss of a shield and heavy armor.
My suggestion would be to drop 2 str for 2 int in creation. You should be able to max concentration, discipline, and get 35 tumble and 40 spellcraft. You don't get hide/sneak, but you only lose 1 dam instead of 6.
If you would like to post a ranger version be my guest. It would definitely be nice to take advantage of HIPS. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
why even pick shadow dancer then? I mean HIPS will hardly ever work right? You could just pick rogue. Did you just pick shadow dancer for evasion (they do get evasion right?)
Shadowdancer for epic dodge in 10 levels instead of 13 with rogue. Also you get more in those 10 levels of SD than in 13 rogue, I believe (except for sneak attack, which i'm not fond of because it's a one-time deal.) (edit: oh and with this build there's no xp penalty. With rogue there would be, unless you did the levels in a very weird way that would just be too annoying and probably screw some things up) _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
Edited By yrtsns on 09/16/04 05:53
Quote: Posted 09/16/04 05:51:50 (GMT) -- yrtsns
Also you get more in those 10 levels of SD than in 13 rogue, I believe (except for sneak attack, which i'm not fond of because it's a one-time deal.)
Not sure I agree with that. With this kind of build, sneak attack is definitely NOT A one-time deal. With Improved Invis., Darkness/Ultravision, summoning spells, IKD, and even Hellball if you go Epic as a Cleric, you can sneak attack pretty much anything that isn't sneak immune almost every hit.
Also, you have to consider the fact that Rogues get more skill credits, and since you can start as a Rogue, that means you get (8 + Int Mod) * 4 at creation, as opposed to a lowly (2 +Int Mod) * 4 if you start as a Cleric. I would think that this would be particularly helpful since you seem to be tight on skill credits.
Although it's true that Shadowdancers get more abilities in 10 levels than Rogues do, I would still definitely go Rogue with this build. IMHO, the main reason to take Shadowdancer with any build is to get HIPS, and if you don't even bother raising Hide and Move Silently, then it's really not worth it.
As for the XP penalty thing, it's fairly easy to create a build similar to this that doesn't get an XP penalty. If you go Human and make your levels Rogue 13/Fighter 12/Cleric 15 (Rogue 4/Fighter 4/Cleric 12 pre-epic), you don't have any XP penalty. You lose a couple Fighter feats, but you gain a feat from being Human, so you don't really lose much. Also, if you're taking 14 Cleric, why not raise your Wisdom a point and get 7th lvl spells? You might only get a couple spells per day, but Clerics can get some pretty powerful 7th lvl spells, such as Word of Faith, or even Creeping Doom (does something like 1000 damage to HP before it wears off) if you take the Plant domain.
Check out my Infernal Fencer build. It's pretty similar to yours: it's a Dex-based Rogue/Fighter/Cleric build that gets Epic Dodge and 9th lvls spells while wielding a Rapier. I even chose Dwarf as the race. Although it does get an XP penalty, if you use either a 17/8/15 split or a 15/8/17 split you can avoid this, provided that you take your last lvl as either Rogue or Cleric, respectively.
Quote: Posted 09/16/04 12:08:28 (GMT) -- CrispyCritter Not sure I agree with that. With this kind of build, sneak attack is definitely NOT A one-time deal. With Improved Invis., Darkness/Ultravision, summoning spells, IKD, and even Hellball if you go Epic as a Cleric, you can sneak attack pretty much anything that isn't sneak immune almost every hit.
I really like the rogue suggestion. You could shift feats around to get IKD pretty easily, especially when you're going to drop dodge/mobility anyways. Although Epic Cleric spells would be hard to do since you'd need 25 dex and 19 wis. You'd have to waste too many feats for a single spell.
If you went 12 ftr 12 cle 16 rogue, (pre-epic: 8 ftr 8 cle 4 rogue) You could not only avoid the exp penalty, but get 8d6 sneak attack with crippling strike, only lose 1 ab, and get 54 more skill points. Take 14 int and you should be able to max disc, conc, spellcraft and tumble, and one other skill... UMD? (obviously hide or move silently would be pretty goofy since you have invis anyways, and cant hips). And since you could take tumble to 40 with rogue, you'd gain one ac. Lv 6 Cleric spells, combined with healing and trickery domains would keep you alive for a very long time, while you IKD and cripple. Me likey.
Also 11 ftr/13 cle/16 rogue might sacrifice one epic feat for additional spell slots, and as long as you take that cleric for the last level you can still avoid xp penalties.
I'll have to look over your build syrath. Thanks for the suggestion. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?