This will more than likely be the last build Im going to post for some time. Thank you to many of you for your support during much of my time posting on these forums.
Syrath
Edited By griphook on 05/12/05 20:26
Syrath, you're taking a hiatus? Not going to post builds for a while? That's bad news for us :/
Here's a general question - I've seen a few human rogue/shadowdancer builds where the weapon of choice is shortswords. Why not rapiers? Is it because rapiers are funky in the off hand (I forget the exact cause)? I know they're finesseable, but is it the off-hand rapier still retains a -4 to hit? If that's the case, wouldn't the added benefits of multiple critical hits (as compared to shortswords) offset the -4 offhand accuracy?
Sorry if that's been posted/discussed a bajillion times. I'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth though.
Thanks, Scott.
PS - You'll be missed.
Im going to be tied up with a few beta tests one is a mmorpg(dont ask because I cant say which) thats likely to take most of my time.
As for using shortswords instead of rapiers there were 2 reasons.
Personal choice was one. rapiers have a higher critical range than shortswords this much is true but ill show you the comparison e.g. With shortswords you have an AB or 45 With rapiers you have an AB of 43
Against something with an AC 53 . The shortswords critical on a roll of 17,18,19,or 20. the rapier critical on a roll of 15,16,17,18,19 or 20.
The shortsword hits however on a roll 8 and the rapier on a roll of 10.
So the rapier hits 20 percent less than the shortsword but when it crits (roughly 9/100th of the time he does 1*more damage). So you can say 1 out of 10 hits does 1* more damage.
Now take a look at the shortsword. Over 10 rapier hits it hits 12 times. This in itself is more than the rapier damage, before we add in the effects of criticals.
If you increase the AC there is a small band where the rapier is probably better.
Syrath
BTW the critical rate is 15/100 not 9 in 100 as I posted.
However I did some calculations in excel to see how the shortsword compared with the rapier in a head to head.
DW rapier never matches shortsword on a damage per round basis. The shortsword makes more threat rolls due to the higher AB and this almost compensates against the rapier for the reduction in threat range. The shortsword however hits more normal hits on top of this for an increase in overall damage. Only when mobs reach exactly 20 to hit for both weapons does the rapier = shortsword when DW. After that criticals dont even matter.
BTW the critical rate is 15/100 not 9 in 100 as I posted.
However I did some calculations in excel to see how the shortsword compared with the rapier in a head to head.
DW rapier never matches shortsword on a damage per round basis. The shortsword makes more threat rolls due to the higher AB and this almost compensates against the rapier for the reduction in threat range. The shortsword however hits more normal hits on top of this for an increase in overall damage. Only when mobs reach exactly 20 to hit for both weapons does the rapier = shortsword when DW. After that criticals dont even matter.
Syrath
Syrath,
Thanks for clarifying this some more. We can always count on you to back up your points with valid statistical analysis.
Just don't start throwing standard deviations in here and we'll all get along just fine!
Just in case you want to see that in action... _________________ "Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad."
I hate to be a pain, but the calc there is off, it shows a +6 attribute for shortsword and +2 for rapiere,they should be the same. so that the abs are with 2 rather than a total of 6 diff.
So yeah, apparently it didn't like weapon finesse for rapiers. There's a more accurate version... _________________ "Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad."
I ran this build through the Novice to Epic mod and I ran into a problem at level 33. For my first feat I chose Great Dex (to get my dex to 30) but Self Concealment I was not available to me. I presume I would have to be at Dex 30 prior to that level. Anyhow, this pushed back my SC feats so I ended up at SC4 at level 40.
Can anyone confirm this? Or have any thoughts?
Thanks, Kaliban.
You can't take a Great _____ feat on the same level as a feat that needs that stat set at what the Great ______ feat would push it to (in this case, 30 dex). It doesn't register the stat increase until after you level, unfortunately. _________________ "Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad."
1/ Rogue Dodge/Mobility 2/ Fighter Weapon Finesse 3/ Fighter Weapon Focus (shortsword), ambidexterity 4/ Rogue DEX 19 5/ Fighter 6/ Fighter 2 weapon fighting, Weapon Specialisation (shortsword) 7/ Rogue 8/ Shadowdancer DEX 20 9/ Shadowdancer Improved Initiative 10 Shadowdancer 11 Shadowdancer 12 Shadowdancer DEX 21 Improved 2 weapon fighting 13 Shadowdancer 14 Shadowdancer 15 Shadowdancer Improved Critical 16 Shadowdancer DEX 22 17 Shadowdancer 18 Fighter Blind Fight 19 Fighter Knockdown 20 Fighter DEX 23 21 Fighter Epic Weapon Focus , Epic Weapon Specialisation 22 Shadowdancer 23 Shadowdancer 24 Shadowdancer DEX 24 Great DEX(25) Superior Initiative 25 Shadowdancer 26 Shadowdancer 27 Shadowdancer Great DEX (26) EPic Dodge 28 Shadowdancer DEX 27 29 Shadowdancer 30 Shadowdancer Great DEX (28) Epic Shadowlord 31 Shadowdancer 32 Shadowdancer DEX 29 33 Fighter Great DEX (30) 34 Shadowdancer Self concealment 1 35 Shadowdancer 36 Shadowdancer DEX 31 Self Concealment 2 37 Shadowdancer Self Concealment 3 38 Shadowdancer 39 Shadowdancer Self Concealment 4 40 Shadowdancer DEX 32 Self Concealment 5
Mucho apologies. Has a lower discipline , an alternative is to take rogue at level 33 for a higher umd score rather than discipline(not my preferred route but it is probably a better alternative)
