This is my way to try to emulate the PrC Mystic Theurge (available in the PRC) with Bioware classes. The result is pretty good.
Advantages -Accesses 70 to 80% of the spells in the game. Extremely powerful when he gets time to prepare his spells before combat, especially if he knows what the enemy is. -2-3 Epic Spell Focii -3-4 Epic spells -Can have auto-still spells -Accesses the best arcane and divine buffs (undeath's eternal foe, shadow shield, death ward, freedom of movement, premonition etc ...) -As easy as a common mage to level from level 1 to 20, easier than a common mage from 30 to 40. -Excellent will save -Very party friendly (your friends will love your buffs) -Very flexible on feats and skills selection (the detailled build below is an example that can easily be customized)
Disadvantages -Low AC (let's be clear about this : this is a pure spellcaster) -Low HP (356 if dices maxed) -Low fort and reflex save, although spellcraft gives a nice bonus against spells -It's another mage, so the earliest levels are a pain -Your spells DC are a little lower than a dedicated spellcaster -Can experience problems with Spell Resistance (although Mordenkainen Disjunction can help) -Can experience problems with dispelling, once it's fixed in 1.64 (Mordenkainen Disjunction can help here too)
Details
Race : Human preferably, any is doable (half-orc is not recommanded because of the intelligence decrease)
Alignment : Any ; I prefer lawful neutral, lawful good or neutral good, as i play it mainly on RP server and the cleric part is a worshipper of Mystra.
Base Attributes STR 8 DEX 8 CON 16 WIS 16 (20) INT 16 (22) CHA 8
Leveling Guide Levels 1-19 Wizard Levels 20-40 Cleric, with wizard levels at 21, 27, 30, 33
Cleric domains I recommand Healing (always useful) and magic (nice, and quite RP suited), but any will do.
Final Level Distribution Wizard 23 Cleric 17
Attribute Bonuses First 6 to intelligence Last 4 to wisdom
Final Attributes STR 8 DEX 8 CON 16 WIS 20 INT 22 CHA 8
Skill selection : Concentration and Spellcraft are required (and useful) I recommand Lore, Heal (high wisdom helps), Tumble, Disable Trap, Open Lock. With 22 Intelligence in the end, you can afford quite a few skills, even cross-class.
DC on spells : -Illusion, Necromancy or Enchantement for wizard (level 9 spell) : 31 naked, 37 with items +12 -Illusion, Necromancy or Enchantement for cleric (level 9 spell) : 30 naked, 36 with items +12 -Other schools of magic for wizard (level 9 spell) : 25 naked, 31 with items +12 -Other schools of magic for cleric (level 9 spell) : 24 naked, 30 with items +12
The feat selection is an example. I hate evocation school of magic on a mage, as i think a mage that uses damage spells to kill an enemy is a bad mage. But you can safely exhange any spell focus for any other (enchantement for evocation for example), and trade a few epic spells and/or improved combat casting for automatic still spell. Also, this build works with sorcerer, but it has always seemed weaker to me (charisma is less useful than intelligence, and lacking 4 metamagic feats).
Any comment ? _________________ If you call IGMS, Harm, Mestil's acid shield, the Bigby hands or Devastating Critical balanced in your post, don't expect me to like you.
I'm sorry about my bad english, I'm french. In every lie lies a part of truth.
Edited By Agifem on 10/06/04 14:56
Looks very similar to my Red Mage, but with more HP and slightly better magic, although without Dev Crit (which is not balanced). I see this character in team, he would have a very hard time when alone... but he's as good in spamming IGMS (it's also not balanced) as any other character. Also, if you take auto still spell for him, he would propably be too weak to move with full speed with armor and shield - although you can always cast Bull's Strength.
Looks very similar to my Red Mage, but with more HP and slightly better magic, although without Dev Crit (which is not balanced). I see this character in team, he would have a very hard time when alone... but he's as good in spamming IGMS (it's also not balanced) as any other character.
If your build has dev crit, then we have nothing in common. Mine is a mage, and if he runs out of spells, he's dead. Period. Luckily, that's not something that happens often. Also, my build doesn't rely on the Bioware unbalanced spells or feats, since he can cast with high DC the best DD3 spells (Wail, Dominate monster, Weird, Hold monster, Finger of Death, Destruction, Slay Living etc ...). Sadly, on most worlds, the associated immunities are common and my build is rendered quite useless. A more "evocation" approach is preferable in such cases, and the sorcerer might be better then. I still prefer the wizard for myself, for versatility.
Quote: Posted 10/06/04 18:43:25 (GMT) -- Tengudor_t Also, if you take auto still spell for him, he would propably be too weak to move with full speed with armor and shield - although you can always cast Bull's Strength.
Auto-still is an option, and nothing prevents you from sacrificing 2 constitution points for 4 strengh points. Also, with the spell slots you have, it's not hard to find room for an empowered or maximized bull's strengh (provided you have the metamagic feat). _________________ If you call IGMS, Harm, Mestil's acid shield, the Bigby hands or Devastating Critical balanced in your post, don't expect me to like you.
I'm sorry about my bad english, I'm french. In every lie lies a part of truth.
I see this character in team, he would have a very hard time when alone...
Actually, it will be as hard/easy as a wizard in the first 20 levels, and easier than a wizard in the last 20 levels, because of the higher HP and AC from armor and cleric buffs. Also, around level 30, he can cast heal.
One more thing, by equipping a girdle of holy might, a holy ring, or any other item with cleric spell slots, you can cast cleric spells up to level 6 from your first cleric level (which you can choose to take at level 1 or 2 instead of level 20). But this might be considered a cheat by some people. _________________ If you call IGMS, Harm, Mestil's acid shield, the Bigby hands or Devastating Critical balanced in your post, don't expect me to like you.
I'm sorry about my bad english, I'm french. In every lie lies a part of truth.
If you are going to wait until the last few levels of this characters career to get two key feats to a spellcaster, then why take them? Odds are with a maxed out concentration, you won't need improved combat casting anyways, and with a relatively low caster level on bioth your spell classes ESP would to me be much more essential to get in the early epic levels.
Quote: The feat selection is an example. I hate evocation school of magic on a mage, as i think a mage that uses damage spells to kill an enemy is a bad mage.
I'm still trying to figure out the mentality behind this statement. Both illusion and necromancy spells are doing damage for the most part in this build as your DCs will almost always be easy to beat by any equivalent level opponent. In fact most decent builds will only miss a save vs. a DC check on a 1 only. The reason I say this, is if you take your best clerical necromancy spell, you have a dc of 24. With your wizard spells it will be a 25. These are plenty high for mundane critters but nothing extreme.
Quote: Posted 10/07/04 08:52:30 (GMT) -- Agifem One more thing, by equipping a girdle of holy might, a holy ring, or any other item with cleric spell slots, you can cast cleric spells up to level 6 from your first cleric level (which you can choose to take at level 1 or 2 instead of level 20). But this might be considered a cheat by some people.
A lot of characters can do many things with items of various types. The point of a good build is to get them to do extraordinary things without items. _________________ Come visit the Epic Builders Guild for all the character info you could ever want or need: Click Here
If you are going to wait until the last few levels of this characters career to get two key feats to a spellcaster, then why take them? Odds are with a maxed out concentration, you won't need improved combat casting anyways, and with a relatively low caster level on bioth your spell classes ESP would to me be much more essential to get in the early epic levels.
True about ESP. You can easily delay the wizard levels (that allow to take the epic spells) at level 30, 33 and 36, in order to take ESP at level 27, or earlier if you delay a spell focus. But like i said, it's just an example of the feat choice. Reguarding Improved combat casting, i don't consider it a key feat. I had a spare epic feat, this one seemed like a good idea.
Quote: Posted 10/07/04 12:25:14 (GMT) -- Emrill
Quote: The feat selection is an example. I hate evocation school of magic on a mage, as i think a mage that uses damage spells to kill an enemy is a bad mage.
I'm still trying to figure out the mentality behind this statement. Both illusion and necromancy spells are doing damage for the most part in this build as your DCs will almost always be easy to beat by any equivalent level opponent. In fact most decent builds will only miss a save vs. a DC check on a 1 only. The reason I say this, is if you take your best clerical necromancy spell, you have a dc of 24. With your wizard spells it will be a 25. These are plenty high for mundane critters but nothing extreme.
There are 2 kinds of mages : -Those that deal damage, mainly sorcerers. Fireball, cone of cold and meteor swarm as their weapon of choice. They work on most worlds. -Those that use what else magic has to offer. Paralysation, magical death, domination, stun, entangle, daze etc ... is their weapon of choice. This is a much harder path to walk, but a more efficient than the previous one. But it does not work on all worlds, as immunities counter most of those effects. Most illusion and necromancy spells, and all of enchantement, belong to this category.
Quote: Posted 10/07/04 12:25:14 (GMT) -- Emrill
Quote: Posted 10/07/04 08:52:30 (GMT) -- Agifem One more thing, by equipping a girdle of holy might, a holy ring, or any other item with cleric spell slots, you can cast cleric spells up to level 6 from your first cleric level (which you can choose to take at level 1 or 2 instead of level 20). But this might be considered a cheat by some people.
A lot of characters can do many things with items of various types. The point of a good build is to get them to do extraordinary things without items.
Agreed, but it's good to have options and know about it. _________________ If you call IGMS, Harm, Mestil's acid shield, the Bigby hands or Devastating Critical balanced in your post, don't expect me to like you.
I'm sorry about my bad english, I'm french. In every lie lies a part of truth.
Three points.
If you take plant domain, you get creeping doom
If you take 4 cleric levels pre-epic, you get 3 attacks per per round. Why is this important? With divine power you get a full 4 attacks with fighter BAB, not bad when you run out of spells.
One argument for evocation, is that the best cleric death spell, implosion, is evocation.
I agree completely though, at high levels, evocation is just plain inefficient at killing critters, and a good stun or hold will work wonders.
Edit: if you put points in craft armor, you can craft a mithral chain shirt and ironwood small shield, that have an arcane spell failure of 0%. +5 AC is nothing to sneeze at.
Edited By Mr_Raider on 10/12/04 13:16
Quote: Posted 10/12/04 13:10:38 (GMT) -- Mr_Raider If you take plant domain, you get creeping doom
Never thought about it. I've always loved healing domain, and i think magic is quite good. It's all about seeing if creeeping doom is worth the loss of ice storm and stoneskin as a cleric (which you get as a wizard though). I leave it up to decide to the player. The domain choice isn't a critical aspect of this build.
Quote: Posted 10/12/04 13:10:38 (GMT) -- Mr_Raider If you take 4 cleric levels pre-epic, you get 3 attacks per per round. Why is this important? With divine power you get a full 4 attacks with fighter BAB, not bad when you run out of spells.
First, this build never EVER runs out of spells. Second, it's not a tank, and therefor will not have some melee-efficient gear. Even with 4 attacks, he does not have improved crit, weapon focus or anything to help him use a weapon efficiently, and he will most often wield a staff to get him extra spell slots or intelligence/wisdom increases. This build is not a tank. Playing it melee is a sure way to get yourself killed.
Quote: Posted 10/12/04 13:10:38 (GMT) -- Mr_Raider One argument for evocation, is that the best cleric death spell, implosion, is evocation.
True, but Wail of the Banshee is better because of its range (Implosion catches you in the AoE, so you'd better get immune to magical death), and i think it's not worth wasting 3 focuses feats for a single spell. But, again, it's up to the player to decide.
Quote: Posted 10/12/04 13:10:38 (GMT) -- Mr_Raider I agree completely though, at high levels, evocation is just plain inefficient at killing critters, and a good stun or hold will work wonders.
Yeah baby ! Nothing is worth a good Hold Monster. _________________ If you call IGMS, Harm, Mestil's acid shield, the Bigby hands or Devastating Critical balanced in your post, don't expect me to like you.
I'm sorry about my bad english, I'm french. In every lie lies a part of truth.
OK.. I'm not a builder by any means - and this is likely a dumb question. But why not take most cleric levels pre-epic so that you have melee to fall back on in the early stages? I may be wrong, but it seems the build would not suffer from it? Even taking 12 cleric levels pre-epic would allow base attack 13; which is respectable enough for a mage to fall back on.
I like the build.....even though the spell DCs are low you can make up for it by having such a HUGE range of spells.
The only problem is that there are too many spells for the quickbars to hold
Ya there is so many spells that the quickbar cant even hold... But i think when you run out of the those spells just overlap the ones ya used with the ones ya havent used i guess lol... Is this build any good for PVP?
Quote: OK.. I'm not a builder by any means - and this is likely a dumb question. But why not take most cleric levels pre-epic so that you have melee to fall back on in the early stages? I may be wrong, but it seems the build would not suffer from it? Even taking 12 cleric levels pre-epic would allow base attack 13; which is respectable enough for a mage to fall back on.
You miss the point. 2 pure spellcaster classes, main stats are wisdom and intelligence, the char has access to 70% of the spells in the game, with nice DCs and many slots. Why in the nine hells would you want to melee anything ? This is a pure spellcaster, built as a pure spellcaster, meant to be played by casting spells. Don't melee. If you want a melee build, try another one. This one is about magic.
Ya there is so many spells that the quickbar cant even hold... But i think when you run out of the those spells just overlap the ones ya used with the ones ya havent used i guess lol... Is this build any good for PVP?
Yeah, the quickslot is a pain to handle...
As for PvP, it depends. Built as i said, focused on enchantement, necro and illusion, it sucks badly on most servers (because of the immunities to effects). It may be better with evocation magic. But i'm no fan of PvP, so i don't know. _________________ If you call IGMS, Harm, Mestil's acid shield, the Bigby hands or Devastating Critical balanced in your post, don't expect me to like you.
I'm sorry about my bad english, I'm french. In every lie lies a part of truth.
Ya there is so many spells that the quickbar cant even hold... But i think when you run out of the those spells just overlap the ones ya used with the ones ya havent used i guess lol... Is this build any good for PVP?