Here's one of the most basic, cheesy, unoriginal yet surprisingly effective builds I've used in a while. I seem to remember a version of this build being posted waaaaaaaay back on the Looking for Excellent Character Builds thread - that's version ONE of those threads, in case you were wondering. But I thought I'd add my version, because a) I'm currently having plenty of fun playing it, b) it's still a great build and c) my version has more of a focus into one area, ie. Strength, yet is optimised to be mightily playable all the way through its life.
I originally wanted a Dev Crit build with as high a DC as I could possibly get, but then I realised a build like that would involve a half orc - definitely a no-no for me. So I decided to go for a build that retains some all round functionality, and still gets a massive Dev Crit DC. One extra point, he needed to have a cheesy name. Once I came up with that, the rest followed along quite easily. I went for a human, for the extra feat and skill point per level. Starting stats: Str 18 Dex 8 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 14
For the first 5 levels, make sure you have Lore maxed out, so you can start taking RDD levels as soon as possible. After making the build on two different PWs, I can safely say the RDD levels are the most boring ones to take, so it's best to get them out of the way ASAP. Otherwise, max out Tumble, Perform (but stop once you get to 22 - you need 25 to get level 16 Bard / Curse song effects, and you finish with 16 Cha, so 22's all you need here), Discipline, Spellcraft, and UMD. You should have more than enough skill points to do this once you hit level 9 RDD and get that all important +2 to Int. Levelling Guide Human, Lawful Neutral 1 - Bard 1 - Curse Song, Heavy Armour Proficiency 3 - Bard 3 - Martial Weapon Proficiency 4 - Bard 4 - Str +1 (19) 6 - RDD 1 / Bard 5 - Weapon Focus Scimitar 8 - RDD 3 / Bard 5 - Str +1 (22) 9 - RDD 4 / Bard 5 - Power Attack 12 - CoT 2 / RDD 4 / Bard 6 - Str +1 (25) Cleave, Great Cleave* 14 - CoT 4 / RDD 4 / Bard 6 - Improved Critical Scimitar* 15 - RDD 5 / CoT 4 / Bard 6 - Toughness 16 - RDD 6 / CoT 4 / Bard 6 - Str +1 (26) 18 - Bard 8 / CoT 4 / RDD 6 - Knockdown 20 - RDD 8 / Bard 8 / CoT 4 - Str +1 (27) 21 - RDD 9 / Bard 8 / CoT 4 - Great Strength 1 (28) 24 - CoT 6 / RDD 10 / Bard 8 - Str +1, Great Strength 2 (34), Overwhelming Critical Scimitar* 27 - Bard 10 / CoT 7 / RDD 10 - Great Strength 3 (35) 28 - CoT 8 / Bard 10 / RDD 10 - Str +1 (36), Devastating Critical Scimitar* 30 - CoT 10 / Bard 10 / RDD 10 - Great Strength 4 (37), Improved Knockdown* 32 - Bard 12 / CoT 10 / RDD 10 - Str +1 (38) 33 - Bard 13 / CoT 10 / RDD 10 - Still Spell 35 - Bard 15 / CoT 10 / RDD 10 36 - CoT 11 / Bard 15 / RDD 10 - Str +1, Great Strength 5 (40) 39 - CoT 14 / Bard 15 / RDD 10 - Great Strength 6 (41), Epic Weapon Focus Scimitar* 40 - Bard 16 / CoT 14 / RDD 10 - Str +1 (42)
Final Level Stats Str 42 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 16
Just to go back over the skill point calculation, the Avatar gets 230 in total, including the +2 RDD bonus being applied at level 21. Take off 40 for Tumble, 22 for Perform, 43 for Discipline, 40 for Spellcraft, 43 for Concentration and 8 for Lore, and you're left with 34. I put 32 into UMD (the Cha bonus rounds it up to 35, and UMD works in blocks of 5) and used the other one to cross class into Open Lock. That was only because there's lots of unbreakable doors on my PW, which bizarrely have locks of DC 10, but that's another story. Put the final points wherever you want, it doesn't really matter, he gets all the important skills.
Another drawback is some of the feats take a while to get, like Still Spell on 33 on IKD on 30, but I couldn't conceivably fit these in any earlier. He has access to regular Knockdown from level 18 onwards, so he can still knock people down, just not quite as well. And Still Spell only starts to become handy when he gets access to 4th level spells anyway (for Stilled Dispel Magic, Stilled Haste, Stilled Bestow Curse) so it's perfectly appropriate in this case to get Still Spell this late on.
Anyway, let's check out his strong points, ie. his AB, damage, Dev Crit DC and, surprisingly, his AC. His (buffed) AB is quite easy to work out: Using a non-magical scimitar 26 BAB +19 Strength (buffed, Bull's Strength) +5 Greater Magic Weapon +3 Weapon Focus / Epic Weapon Focus +2 War Cry +2 Bard Song +6 Divine Wrath so he gets attacks at +63/58/58/53 every round, for as long as his Divine Wrath and Haste spell last. The spell Keen Edge means he threatens a critical on rolls of 12-20, and if my calculations are correct, his Dev Crit DC is 42. I'm using the formula 10 + (HD/3) + Str modifier to get to that. If that's the wrong formula, I apologise, and request you to post the right one, because that really is a huge DC. When using his mundane scimitar, fully buffed, his damage output is 1d6 +19 Strength +5 Greater Magic Weapon +2 War Cry +3 Bard Song +3 Divine Wrath making 33-38 in total. But he will lose his Divine Wrath bonuses quickly, since he only has 16 Charisma. Even without them, he can still pack a fierce punch. Of course, the scimitar is only useful to score Dev Crits with; against a foe immune to critical hits, he should take advantage of his massive Strength by using a double handed weapon. I like the heavy flail, especially against undead, but it's up to you really.
Somewhat surprisingly for such a melee based character, he also gets a really good AC. Fully buffed, he gets 10 base +1 Dex (Cat's Grace) +8 full plate +3 tower shield +8 Tumble +4 RDD bonuses +5 Bard Song +2 Protection from Evil (only against evil creatures though) in total, that's 41AC, 39 against non-evil creatures, all without the aid of magic items. He also has 50% concealment from Improved Invisibility and DR 5/+1 from Divine Wrath or Ghostly Visage, although I'm not sure that the DR is really worth mentioning.
Remember, this build is far from a one trick pony. To soften up his enemies, he has Curse Song, which inflicts 20 points of damage, drops their AC by 5, attack by 2, damage by 3, skill rolls by 2 and saving throws by 2. Combined with Bard Song, which applies all those as positives to the Avatar, it represents a big swing even at epic levels. Plus, he can use any scroll, most items, is basically immune to knockdown (his Str bonus is added to his Discipline score) while being able to knock just about anyone else down, has and has over 400 hit points. If that weren't enough, his unbuffed saves are F31/R31/W29. This character hardly lacks a thing. On a high magic world, he's unbelievably good fun to play.
Edited By griphook on 07/07/05 23:54
I like this build!
One question. Is there any advvantage of these particular levels over B12/CoT18/RDD10, for instance?
One question. Is there any advvantage of these particular levels over B12/CoT18/RDD10, for instance?
Yeah, I wanted full Bard / Curse Song capabilities, because the swing in AC and AB alone is enough to turn most seemingly unequal battles on their head. When you're facing a large number of bad guys who all have enough AB to hit you once or twice per round, it's unbelievable how much a Bard Song / Curse Song combination saves your áss.
Oh, and I wanted some 5th level spells, so I could cast a stilled War Cry into the midst of the enemy, and cast a stilled Improved Invisibility if i needed to run away, or was dispelled. With 12 bard levels, you'd only be able to cast 2 4th level spells per day; with 16, you can cast 3, plus 2 5th level spells.
The extra feat and saving throw bonuses you'd get from 18 levels of CoT are nice, but I don't think they'd make up for the song bonuses and spells. I'm not saying yours would be a bad build, just not the one I wanted to make.
Presently on the HLoTR PW I'm playing a build very close to this (15B 15COT 10RDD) and its just a killer. The extra bard level might be a better way to go but I wanted that 3rd jump in Divine Wrath. With bard song, COT saves, RDD buffs this build has it all. Good AB, good AC, Good saves, lots of feats and nice (not huge) damage, and some nifty buffs.
Probably each mix has its benefits and disbenefits. The basic idea works whichever way you go.
This build works very well, but i was curious... wouldn't it work as well if nto better to drop starting Str down to 16 and bump con up to 16.. you should be able to level up the same way... as you'll still have more then enough str for Dev crit ahen you get to it and such... and at level 40 you'll have 80 more base HP at the cost of 1 ab/damage.... just seems like a good trade off to me..
Ohh and also Dev Crits DC is 10 + level/2 + Str Mod, my 36 version of this char on a PW (with +12 in str items) is running around with a DC50 Dev Crit
PS- VERY nice build , Kick arse with the best of the tanks and Everyone loves bard song
Glad you like the build JV. You're right about the starting Str. 18 is nice to start with, it makes most level 1 critters a piece of cake, even on the harder worlds, but it does limit the character in other areas. Recently, when I've played the build on a new PW, I've started with stats
Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 14
which is a little more balanced. On that PW, though, it's necessary for characters to use Appraise and Persuade or they'll end up really, really, REALLY poor. So I had to invest in a little more Int. If I hadn't have had to do that, I would have started with 16 Con, since you have to make up for the Bard's d6 hit die somehow.
According to the manual you need +7 BAB to get COT, at level 9 you only have +6.
you'll notice he takes CoT 2 at 12. It's a little hard to tell where he takes what, but i think he takes his first CoT at lv 11. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
i managed to make the character mainly through guess work (so i don't know if i've done it right) from your lvling plan please could you repost it like this for example COT 9)RDD
i managed to make the character mainly through guess work (so i don't know if i've done it right) from your lvling plan please could you repost it like this for example
COT 9)RDD
ect... thanks
I COULD do.....but it's quite easy to tell already. The first class mentioned on each level is the class taken for that level-up. I included the rest of the classes so it's easier to see (at a glance) how the character's abilities grow over time, and at which levels it gains most power, etc.
Plus, there's only ever one way to level up the character between the levels I stated; or if there isn't, then it doesn't matter which way you do it, as long as you take the levels I've written up in exactly the way i've written them up.
Here's a different version of the build, that I plan to use on a world where Dev Crit is banned. It's much more balanced than the original, and is intended mainly to tank in party play.
Final Stats Str 40 Dex 10 Con 16 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha 16
Dropping starting Str by 2 points allows more points for Con and Int, helping out with HP and unforeseen skill increases, both of which are generally necessary in PW play. This way the build can also get 43 Taunt, which further helps to lower enemy AC.
The build should now get 480 hit points by level 40, provided you take the maximum on every level. This can be buffed to 520 or 560 using Endurance.
The Greatsword focus allows the Avatar to take advantage of his massive strength, with a 1.5x Str modifier on the damage roll. His AC is a little lower as he no longer gets a shield, but he does now get Expertise very early on and Improved Expertise & Armour Skin later in life, so he can compensate. For early levels, it may be worthwhile to take a longsword and shield combination along just in case.
As a tank in party play he's fantastic. Fully buffed, he's better level-for-level than a Fighter / WM or a DwD. His HP isn't quite so good but it can be buffed, his AB can be improved with buffs and song, and his Curse Song and Taunts lower the enemy's AC, AB and saves. The Avatar's AC is through the roof compared to a typical tank, with +4 from Draconic Armour, full Tumble skills and IE, backed up with Improved Invisibility. I can't wait to get him started on a new PW.
Cool build. Did you consider a similar build replacing CoT for Fighter and using Dwarf. The trade-off would be charisma starts at 12 and would end at 15 using a great feat and lower saves, but the benefit could be a constitution ending at 18, the wpn/epic wpn specialisation and heavy/martial proficiency.
Wpn/epic wpn specialisation provides nearly the same dmg as the bonus from 2-handed weapon so you could us a shield for comparable dmg, or stay 2-handed and add another 6 dmg.
Only comment about taunt is that I found it very disappointing to use at epic levels. It seems to only work at melee range and you stand there for a whole round while waving hands around. Its painful watching epic monsters pounding me for a whole round before I start my attack, and then repeating the whole thing 5 rounds later. Its still useful when in a party though.
Edited By lala_truthsayer on 02/23/05 16:56
Using a Dwarf would not only lose Charisma, and therefore 5th level spells (most notably War Cry) but also a skill point per level and a feat. Although it seems like the Fighter levels would gain enough for this to be worthwhile, it would really only gain two feats, which would have to be spent on Weapon Specialization and Epic WS. So using a Dwarf would lose some of the build's more versatile features.
I have used a version of this build that uses Fighter instead of CoT levels, the extra damage from EWS / WS was handy, but the saves were abysmal compared to this version. It seemed like the Fighter version powered through the common, easier spawns even more smoothly than the CoT version, but wasn't nearly as survivable against tougher, boss type enemies. The divine damage isn't much, but is handy against bosses with DR.
Again, I'm not saying it would be bad to be a Dwarf with this kind of build, it's just not the way I wanted to go.
Herbie: I love this build. I was just wondering though -wouldn't this build benefit from taking more CoT levels pre-epic in order to increase AB? If the reason you don't take more CoT levels pre-epic is for feats, can you please explain how many feats you would lose by adding more CoT levels pre-epic. Thanks...
In order to boost your BAB by taking more CoT levels pre-epic, you'd need to take 8 CoT levels at least, and make sure you take less than 5 RDD levels. Bard 8 / RDD 4 / CoT 8 gets +17 BAB at level 20, which is the maximum any build using these three classes can achieve. If you used Fighter instead of CoT, you could get it to 18 by going Fighter 12 / Bard 4 / RDD 4, or something, but that's way too much Fighter way too early, IMO.
It could definitely be done that way, and it would get Improved Expertise earlier too. The main reason I didn't do it that way was because it's really boring taking the RDD levels, they do make the levelling up process a bit dull, I find. RDD levels 1, 3, 5 and especially 6 give you nothing of note, so I decided to get them out of the way early on while levelling is comparatively easy and frequent. On most PWs the more levels you have, the harder it is to gain another one, so taking the RDD levels earlier gives you more to look forward to.
Another reason is the Con boost you get at RDD level 7. The build is in desperate need of more HP, to make up for the Brd d6 hit die, so I decided to get the +2 to Con sooner rather than later.
But going Bard 8 / RDD 4 / CoT 8 is still a good way to do the build; it may be a little more dull to level, but it does get some potentially crucial feats sooner.
Another reason to delay CoT lvls above 5 until epic is that you can then get Epic Feats with the remaining CoT bonus feats.
I prefer the Bard 20/CoT 10/RDD 10 split with Lasting Inspiration, but having the extra CoT feats in Epic lvls is not a bad thing even in this case. _________________ Click Here
Yes but I believe that you have said that you consider the Bard 20/RDD 10/CoT 10 character a bard first, melee fighter second. I consider myself just the opposite. As such, how much AB are you sarcificing by taking 4 or more less CoT levels pre-epic?
Yes but I believe that you have said that you consider the Bard 20/RDD 10/CoT 10 character a bard first, melee fighter second. I consider myself just the opposite. As such, how much AB are you sarcificing by taking 4 or more less CoT levels pre-epic?
Both the original builds I posted get +16 BAB at level 20. The maximum BAB achievable with these three classes is +17 at level 20. So it's nothing major, really.
i would take out toughness and still spell and replace it with divine might and divine shield. i would also max out taunt and somehow squeeze in epic taunt. you'll basically be getting another +5 to hit.
i would take out toughness and still spell and replace it with divine might and divine shield. i would also max out taunt and somehow squeeze in epic taunt. you'll basically be getting another +5 to hit.
Still Spell is needed to cast some of the Bard spells in armor without fear of spell failure.
Toughness is useful for a melee build, albeit not vital.
However, Divine Might and Divine Shield require the Turn Undead ability, which none of the classes in this build have.
Taunt is a great skill, so that's a good suggestion if room can be found for it. However, be aware it takes a full round to Taunt, and your character is flat-footed when he does so. This means he loses all DEX and Dodge AC while Taunting. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 10/19/05 20:25
War Cry doesn't need to be stilled in order to cast it.
O nevermind what i said before..
But imo you should exchange one great strength for lasting inspiration. i think that might be better then one more strenght for alot of arena servers and hardcore pvp servers.
Edited By mrhanky1234 on 04/09/06 16:33
You can't get Lasting Inspiration with less than 20 Bard levels, else it would naturally be a fine choice. _________________ "And one calculates time from the dies nefastus on which this fatality arose – from the first day of Christianity! – Why not rather from its last? – From today? – Revaluation of all values!"
Ah my mistake... I knew I was forgetting something when i said that
20 levels of bard also nets you an additional -4 to enemy skill rolls from curse song, which is quite handy mixed in with improved knockdown / taunt, if you should choose to go those routes.
When using his mundane scimitar, fully buffed, his damage output is
COT