A few notes: 1) I’m still very new to NWN. I’ve only been playing about 5 months now. This is my first build.
2) I’m not in to PvP. I designed him to run on my favorite PW. (Where you have to have minimum Persuade and Appraise scores or be poor forever, a minimum Search score is needed to find a few trap doors and a minimum OL score is handy to open a few important locks.) As such he’s been designed for “survivability” and “playability”. But, I think he’d be good for PvP too.
3) The only rough spot still in the build is the Skill Point distribution. The current system works. But there are places where points pile up and then get spent in chunks. This happened because I was playing with different Int levels. It could be smoother.
4) I checked to see if anyone else had done this build before I posted it. The closest thing I found is the build by Combustion. The ideas are very similar. But I did come up with this one independently.
5) I owe a nod of thankx to Cinnabar Din for suggesting a couple of tweaks to make his progression smoother and his low level “survivability” and “playability” better and for teaching me so much over the last few months. Thankx Sarge.
Human LE
Start_____Finish____Fully buffed (Naked/max) Str 10____Str 10____Str 22 Dex 16___Dex 26___Dex 31 Con 12___Con 12___Con 17 Wis 16___Wis 19____Wiz 24 Int 12____Int 12____Int 17 Cha 8____Cha 8____Cha 13
(He was designed to buff this way because with the best equipment on the PW I can boost both Dex and Wis by 12 when fully buffed. And even though there‘s one point in Wis that‘s “useless“ at +12 {=31} you have to have a base Wis of 19 to cast 9th lvl Cleric spells, and the Dex tops out at 38 at +12)
36 (Monk 17)(Dex +1 / Gr Dex 3) Tum +1, Dscp +1, Concen +1
37 (Clr 17)Spell craft 10, Concen +1
38 (Monk 18)Tum +1, Dscp +1, Concen +1
39 (Monk 19)(Toughness) Concen +1, Desp +1
40 (Monk 20)(Dex +1) Dscp +2, Concen +2
10 points left over (App +5?)
App 7 (12?) Concen 43 Dscp 43 Heal 4 Hide 8 Move 8 OL 1 Pers 6 Search 14 Spell craft 25 Tum 40 UMD 16 (15 with Cha penalty. This is high enough to let you use every scroll in the game.)
Melee Defense: Armor: Monk robes. Concentrate on equipment that boots Dex, Wis, AC, Con and has perma-haste. With the best equipment on my favorite PW I can get his AC to 83 max possible fully buffed (79 vs. an unknown or neutral alignment).
Naked AC 36 *unbuffed* +1 dodge AC vs. current target,= 37 Naked AC. + all Cleric buffs + Premonition + Greater Stone Skin + Ethereal Visage + Greater Belts + Protect from Elements + Greater Sanctuary and Greater Restoration / Heal as spells. (Note: I have gotten him as high as 535 HP fully buffed and with the best equipment from the PW without rerolling for max HP.)
Naked AC 51 *fully buffed and hasted*, +1 dodge AC vs. current target + 4 AC vs. *known* good or evil alignment = 52 Naked AC / 56 max possible
(Note: To reach a *Naked* AC of 51 and maximum possible values for fully buffed you must cast Cat’s Grace and Owls Wisdom first and roll at least a 4 on CG and a 5 on OW, then cast Undeath’s Enternal Foe, then cast Divine Power, then cast Aura of Vitality, then cast Haste from a scroll or potion last.)
Spell Protection: Spell resist 30, Saves +Protect from Spells (scroll) +Cleric buffs +5 from Spell Craft =All saves in the high 50‘s / low 60‘s, + Greater Spell Mantle (scroll) +Greater Sanctuary. He’s immune to almost everything from cleric buffs / monk bonuses and has really good resists for everything else.
Melee Offense: 9 Attacks per round (With haste / fully buffed / flurry and equipped with two kamas.) AB +44 (armed with +0 weapons / fully buffed / naked / with 9 attacks from flurry and flurry AB penalty)
Offensive magic: 1 lvl 9 Cleric spell (I have gotten him up to 3 with Wis boost equipment on the PW) Harm / Heal, Ice Storm, Blade Barrier, Greater Dispell, Earthquake, all Bibgy’s scrolls, Fire Storm, Sun Beam, Implosion, Storm of Vengeance, Flame Strike, Disjunction, Darkness (to generate Death Attacks). (Or any other scrolls you can get your hands on. My fav PW doesn’t use all the scrolls.)
Damage: Best kamas you can get, +2d6 Death Attack (effective on a 1), +5 divine, +1d6 +8 Dark Fire, +6 Str, +1 slash, +2 magic. (Fully buffed with Darkness.)
Tactics: Buff like mad and slaughter everything but major Epic NPC bosses. Epic bosses: Any of the 7th, 8th, or 9th, lvl Bigby’s Hand scrolls (I prefer Forceful, if you can get it), pile on the offensive damage spells listed above (or whatever scrolls you can get your hands on), slaughter what’s left.
Mages / Extremely high AC opponents (for PvP): Similar to Combustion‘s idea, use Greater Sanctuary first. But then fire off a Bigby’s Forceful Hand, follow it with Disjunction, then Cleric AoE offensive spells, then mop up what‘s left.
I also have a theory that I haven’t been able to test yet as I don’t do PvP: I *think* Quivering Palm *may* over come Shadow Shield. (If Disjunction won‘t strip the buffs, but since he should be stunned by the hand you should have multiple tries at Disjunction. Just make sure you have a big stack of them and a big stack of Bigby‘ hands.) I know SS protects from death. But, QP is not a death attack or death magic. It’s a Fortitude save. I’m still new at this and it’s just a theory so don’t kill me if I’m wrong. But, if it works the mage would have to make a very high Fort save or die.
Notes on further testing:
I used this build to beat Huaman Leung Chung (NPC lvl 60, Ran20/Rog10/AA30, AC 75, 640 HP, CR Impossible for a lvl 40 build) in the Advanced Halls of Training SoU+HotU Edition *twice*.
The first time I killed it was actually fairly easy, it just took forever. I cast gr san, then spawned him. First move was to hit him with forceful hand. It won’t knock him down. But, it will stun him every time. Then I hit him with disjunction to remove any buffs. After that I piled on the AoE offensive Cleric spells. Then I just stood there and chopped at him till he died. It took forever because I only hit on a 20 with +5 kamas (same thing I use on the PW) and he regens.
The second time I killed him it was even easier. To make it more like a “real” PvP fight I went to the store in the Halls and picked up a couple of Imaskari Kamas +8. I followed the same strategy detailed above except I didn’t cast gr san until after he had spawned to make it more like a “real” fight. With the +8 / +d6 acid kamas I cut through him like a hot knife through butter, took about 2-3 minutes tops.
I figure if it works against a lvl 60 NPC it should work against a lvl 40 mage and / or extremely high AC opponents as long as you can cast gr san before they can hit you with IGMS or Dev Crit you. The DC on the mage won’t be nearly as hard to hit after the buffs are stripped and with the high AC opponents just keep him stunned with Forceful Hand scrolls until you roll enough 20‘s to kill him. _________________ If you are going to enter in to a battle of wits then PLEASE, sharpen your sword FIRST!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 01/02/07 17:24
Note: I just noticed I screwed up when I typed his start Dex. It should be 16, not 26. 26 is the final base Dex. _________________ If you are going to enter in to a battle of wits then PLEASE, sharpen your sword FIRST!
Edited By Dy' irath Dy' enea on 11/16/04 02:09
Why is it so easy to afford such high lvl scrolls in the bundles?
Also, don't you get dispeled? With 17 caster lvls against another lvl 40 that most likely has more, you would lose all your buffs. Couldn't they use a MD scroll on you? But why does a MD scroll even work from you.. it has a low caster lvl and therefore a low chance of dispel on an epic char.
You start out with Great Sanctuary. I don't *think* that one can be stripped? (Doesn't it prevent an opponent from getting a target lock on you?)
But even if it can be stripped, while he's busy stripping my buffs at the same time he's doing that I'm reading a Forceful Hand scroll. The only defense is spell resistance / Str check. I'm not sure what the DC on the spell resist is. But, it must be awfully high if it hits a lvl 60 NPC (who has arcane casting lvls {prereq for AA}) *every single time without fail*. And mages aren't exactly known for their strength.
If it's *not* resisted then it makes a Str check at a +14. If the Str check is failed then it knocks the target down and stuns them for 15 rounds and if they are KD immune they are still stunned. So I now have 15 rounds to repeatedly throw MD at them over and over again while they just lay there. Sooner or later I'm going to roll a 20 and dispell them. And I can always cast another FH before the first one runs out and just keep throwing MD at them till I hit. Then they're toast.
With Dev Crit builds you might be better off with Interposing Hand. The *only* check on that one is spell resistance, which they aren't know for. If it hits, which it should, they will be at a -10 to hit for the next 15 rounds. Even with a really high AB they're going to be awfully hard pressed to hit a 78AC (fully buffed / right euipment) +1AC vs current target = 79AC + another 4AC if they are a good or evil alignment and I know which one it is.
So while they stand there unable to hit me I'm stripping their buffs, piling on AoE spells and smackin em around as I will be able to hit them NP. And if they do hit I have a high fort save from the cleric buffs to help vs Dev Crit. With over 500 HP they're gonna be hard pressed to kill me with the one shot that does get through every once in a while. And if I don't die instantly all I have to do is click gr rest or heal and I'm all better again. That is if they can even manage to hit me at a -10 before I kill them as I'm averaging about 250 damage per round with two Imaskari kamas. _________________ If you are going to enter in to a battle of wits then PLEASE, sharpen your sword FIRST!
Edited By Dy' irath Dy' enea on 11/16/04 06:54
Seems like you are basing your strategy around the power of scrolls.. Also, what is stopping a mage from casting greater sanc? Or forceful hand on you? How about crushing hand? Hell, why not timestop, then all the hands on you... btw you can dispel greater sanc by targeting the ground with a dispel. Question: can you even dispel a nearly pure mage with MD scrolls? Are you really going to carry a ton of MD scrolls? Seems a bit unrealistic... I think it says somewhere in the rules for posting epic builds that it should be a general build and not for the PW you play on.. I know on the several PWs I have played that getting that many scrolls would cost a ton of gp. Also.. you can only use 1 scroll per round while a hasted or autoquickened mage or cleric can cast 2.
Scrolls are a nice idea but hardly dependable. They are weak and slow and assume you have them available and can afford them. If I was an epic scroll user, I would prolly use shadowshield and the likes.. spells that give immunities, not attempt to be a mage by taking a few assassin/rogue lvls.
Why take so many monk lvls? You aren't going to use fists.. did you want empty body? I suggest dropping the monk lvls down and getting some more cleric. Your spells will last longer, be harder to dispel, and you will have more castings. You can take trickery domain to get improved invisibility which is better than empty body
Why take three assassin levels pre-epic? You're losing BAB there since Assassins get 3 per every 4 levels. Can you postpone the Assassin levels until past character level 20? And stretch them out so you take your last Assassin level close to 40 to maximize your assassin skills? Otherwise take 4 levels of assassin pre-epic to boost your BAB.
Ideally at 20, you would have cleric, monk, and Assassin levels in clusters of 4 to maximize your pre-epic BAB. I believe all three of these classes are on the 3/4 BAB progression. So perhaps a better breakdown at 20 would be Monk 8/Cleric 12, or Monk 8/Cleric 8/Assassin 4.
Or perhaps it's not that important to you since this character will be a monk using Flurry of Blows with kamas?
I'm no master builder either so I'm interested in hearing what the others have to say.
Thanks for posting your build. Kaliban.
1) He wasn't built specifically for PvP. I'm not in to PvP. So the ideas on PvP are just that, *ideas*.
2) He wasn't designed for a specific PW. He was designed for a specific *environment*. The worlds where I like to play have lots of hack and slash, fast leveling, very high CR encounters, lots of high magic equipment and the encounters are almost impossible to solo. He does *extremely well* and has been *thoroughly tested* in those types of environments. Like I said, he was designed for "survivability" and "playability". In other words he wasn’t designed to be “born” at lvl 40 like so many of the BW published epic builds. He was designed to actually be able to survive from lvl 1-40 without constantly ending up dead. And at the same time to not be so rigidly specialized that he can only do *one thing*. This guy is tough enough and generalized enough that you can run him solo in 99% of environments where 99% of everybody else ends up dead trying to run solo. He can bascially do a little bit of everything and not end up dead doing it.
3) On the Assn lvls: I take the 2nd lvl ASAP to get uncanny dodge ASAP so that he always retains his Dex bonus to AC ASAP. This can be very important in tough encounters as a large portion of his AC comes from his Dex bonus. The 3rd lvl is taken when it is to open up the use of *all* scrolls ASAP, which can be extremely helpful in a tough encounter. As far as AB goes: One click of Devine Power and I now have the same AB as a ftr with the same # of clr lvls. And I get 9 attacks per round. Something I'm *pretty sure* a ftr can never do.
4) On monk lvls: To get AC and spell resist as high as possible. This is a melee build at heart. And there's a bug that prevents the cleric's spell resistance spell from over coming the monks spell resistance. In other words, if you have a clr/monk and you get 12 spell resist from monk but 50 spell resist from the cleric spell when you cast that spell you will still have a spell resist of 12. Not only that but when you're in a really tough, really long fight, vs multiple enemies, alone, taking every kind of attack possible all the monk bonuses up to 20 combined with the cleric buffs can come in very handy for not ending up dead.
5) As far as carrying large stacks of scrolls, why not? I do. As far as how much they cost: Well it's been my experience that in high magic item worlds the loot drops are usually pretty good. With a descent appraise score you make enough money off the loot drops that scroll expense really isn't a problem. I usually end up quite rich despite that expense. _________________ If you are going to enter in to a battle of wits then PLEASE, sharpen your sword FIRST!
Edited By Dy' irath Dy' enea on 11/16/04 20:10
Just noticed I failed to answer one question:
6) Yes, the main point of being able to use scrolls is for piling on as many buffs as you can get your hands on. As a matter of fact if you can get your hands on every buff in the game then I say use them all. But, there are a few offensive scrolls that are worth using. And some times no matter how good you are at melee or how buffed you are it can be very handy to be able to fire off a few offensive 9th lvl clr spells AND offensive 9th lvl wiz spells. But, from what I've seen from tinkering around in the trainer so far I haven't been able to find a good way to mix those two classes with each other or both at the same time with melee. _________________ If you are going to enter in to a battle of wits then PLEASE, sharpen your sword FIRST!
But these buffs can't last that long and are easily dispellable.
Actually most of the buffs usually last way, way longer than it takes for me to chop through 10-15 NPCs. I don't have to rebuff very often. Lots of times I can kill up to 100 NPCs rated at “Impossible” across several encounters before I need to rebuff. You must not have tried any of the buff scrolls. They're better than you seem to think.
And, you have to use a little common sense: Go after the NPC mages first. While the stupid NPC mage stands there waving his arms and succeeds in stripping up to 6 of my 40 buffs I chop him down. Now he's dead and I still have 34 more buffs left. Then I go chop down the next NPC mage and the next and the next and the next. Even if every single one hits me with some kind of dispell I still have a large chunk of buffs left by the time the last one is dead. I never finish a fight completely stripped of all buffs. And I’m so buffed up that pretty much everything else they throw at me almost never hits.
In the mean time all the little melee underlings pretty much can't hit me except for on a 20 because my AC is so high. And if by some miracle they actually manage to do enough damage that I need to worry about it then I have a stack of both gr rest and heal in quick slots as spells. Click. I'm all better.
And of course I can always sling a few handy spells myself in a pinch.
This build is not based on *theory*. Nor is it based on a trainer. He was designed and run in game *first* then tested / documented in a trainer.
He's been run for many, many weeks on end *in game* and does *extremely well*, whether you like him or not. _________________ If you are going to enter in to a battle of wits then PLEASE, sharpen your sword FIRST!
OK.. this doesn't make any sense to me. All the scrolls have an innate lvl which is less than 20.. most are pretty low. A mage casts mordenkainens which gets +20 or more(on my mod it isn't capped so a nearly pure mage would get nearly +40) against your innate lvl of the scroll +11. We'll assume its capped for now.. Let's say you use a shadowshield scroll. The innate lvl should be 13 since its a lvl 7 spell. You get 13+11=24 vs d20 +20.. you will most likely lose this buff. You will lose any buff that is less than innate lvl of 11 automatically.
the whole point of the resoonses is to make one thing clear: an EPIC build is one which in NOT dependant upon items! I noticed that you tried to belittle the bioware chars, born at 40! Well sonny, they are REAL chars usin BASIC itms! NONE are dependant on some unique "environment" where high lvl scrolls are plentiful and +100 items fall like torches! Im sorry man, i know its your first build, but ALL that the responses were trying to say is, regardless of how good your char is on your PW, it isnt an epic build because there is NO way i could duplicate it on my pw. What i suggest is that next time you make a character, use ONLY basic itms (ie. longsword, full plate, tower) then you will have a true duplicatable build that deserves to be calld an epic character.
You see, we have all found unique itms that we have designed a character to use in a specific world, but these are not epic builds. They are specific builds that are for certain situations. EPIC is a big word and we should all start living up to that title. Just my 2 cents.
Peace
Well that's odd?
HMM, lets see: Get tons o flak, move him to another high magic item server that has a big fat warning sign out front: Soloers don't do well, team up or die. Then blaze through areas where other soloers of the same level are droppin like flys and beggin for my help.
Yep, I guess he sucks.
And I would absolutely *love* to watch somebody try to take the "Damage Adept" from lvl 1 to 40 on the PWs I like to play on. It'd take months from all the XP hits from dieing constantly. If they just didn't give up in frustration that is. Or the "Combat Medic" for that matter. Kina hard to advance lvls if ya can't kill anything. _________________ If you are going to enter in to a battle of wits then PLEASE, sharpen your sword FIRST!
Edited By Dy' irath Dy' enea on 11/18/04 19:45
And as far as designing a build to use +0 gear: Why in the world would I ever do that?
1) I don't like low magic worlds. I die of bordem before the first NPC gets a chance to take me out.
2) On the worlds I *do* like if you run around in +0 gear then I don't care how mean your build is you're gonna die every 5 seconds.
I desgined him to run in the types of places I like to play. And he does very well there. Does that mean he does well everywhere? No. Just like the two builds I named above. They're probably great *in the right circumstances*, just like mine. _________________ If you are going to enter in to a battle of wits then PLEASE, sharpen your sword FIRST!
Quote: Posted 11/18/04 17:56:28 (GMT) -- avado
You see, we have all found unique itms that we have designed a character to use in a specific world, but these are not epic builds.
Really? Then it's odd that BW would publish one?
I think you need to reread all the notes on the Combat Medic.
It more or less says point blank you need high magic items to make this build not totally suck under "weaknesses". _________________ If you are going to enter in to a battle of wits then PLEASE, sharpen your sword FIRST!
He's based on *in game* experience and testing across 3 PWs: 1 extensively tested, 1 moderately tested, 1 lightly tested. What the 3 have in common in lots of high magic items, high CR encounters with high spawn rates, and they’re specifically designed for soloers to not do well.
Yet, amazingly, he does.
Gee, I guess I’m just some kinda frickin moron for believin my own eyes? _________________ If you are going to enter in to a battle of wits then PLEASE, sharpen your sword FIRST!
LMAO
The reason to design based on non magic items is quite simply to show the strength of the BUILD not the ITMS! Unfortunately, what you have outlined is a character that has a unique STRATEGY, not build. The use of scrolls is a great idea, but it should never be the be-all end-all of your way of dealing with situations. Im not sure if u realize it or not, but if you take uber gear, even the most assinine build will work! That's the beauty of the game, and the reason that some people choose not to play on pws with outrageous magic.
Oh, btw, the medic you mention, well, i agree with this in the sense that the feats are NOT designd for combat, BUT this build is VERY deadly in the hands of an EPIC builder, taking the lvlin progression as it is, changing ONLY the feats. I have seen such builds outlast an entire party where he had 4 lvls less than the others. THink about it for one second! Imm to crit with crazy damage via buffs and such, with outrages DR and high AC.. hmm sounds alot like the build you were lookin to build! LOL jk
Again, before this gets out of hand (i will not respond again to this post, btw) all i was saying was plz think in terms of duplication! Yes it is fun to post a unique build that you made, but ask yourself "is this really good if i didnt have these scrolls or the +99 leather armor from Zeus!?" Cuz if it is a good build with non-magic it will be amazing with the magic gear, and you wont have to defend the idea. Remember we are all here to help each other make the best builds we can, and the original question was regarding the use of scrolls as a combat feature.. Let us not forget the real
Peace
I was pointing out that scrolls are inferior to real magic... and I did make some build pointers.. since we are all here to help eachother and all
I have to know what happens when you have mordenkainens cast on you.. you must get fully debuffed.. even greater dispel should take down most of your buffs.
Quote: Posted 11/19/04 05:45:14 (GMT) -- avado
Im not sure if u realize it or not, but if you take uber gear, even the most assinine build will work!
Um, if that's true then how come such a large percentage of people (but certainly not all) who try to solo on the worlds I like to play are droppin like flies and askin for my help in game and my advice out of game cuz I'm blazin around solo?
They have access to all the same stuff I do. But they're havin a really hard time and I'm not?
Oh well, it doesn't matter. This is my last post in this thread.
I've obviously stuck my PWs soloers nose in to some PvP club where it doesn't belong.
I'll go back to havin fun while runnin to peoples rescue in game with my impossibly crappy builds and leave you guys alone to slaughter each other in battle arenas.
Mr Mod you can delete this build and my membership if you want, I'm tired of arugin about what I've seen with my own eyes. Evidently I'm too frickin stoopid to believe what they tell me. _________________ If you are going to enter in to a battle of wits then PLEASE, sharpen your sword FIRST!
Mr Mod you can delete this build and my membership if you want, I'm tired of arugin about what I've seen with my own eyes. Evidently I'm too frickin stoopid to believe what they tell me.
No need to delete this build. It can be used as template and can be improved to a point where it does not have to rely on equipments. As for scrolls, it is not a equipment per se. Equipment is something that you equip on your own person, scroll is not.
Anyway, not necessary to delete this build and not necessary to remove your membership.
Anuis _________________ - Epic Character Builders Guild
