A while back, Crispy Critter helped me out with making a woodsman build. This is a mix of his advice and help as well others (i.e. Syrath, the champion of SC). I tried to combine weapon excellence (WM) with sneakiness (Rogue) plus a dash of Self Concealment. One major weakness is the bad saves.
This is a dual wielding hand axe fella with 4 attacks per round.
Name: Woodsman Race: Halfling
-------------------------- FINAL BUILD --------------------------
I wouldn't adivse using this guy until it gets the stamp of approval of a more experienced "builder" than me.
Edited By Bromium on 10/12/07 19:37
Seems ok.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Hmmm... I might have missed something but here is what I think
1) I don't see a reason to take Ranger at level one! Take Rogue instead then you don't need to have 11 in WIS. Take Ranger at level 2 instead.
Change start stats to Str: 10 Dex: 20 only raise this. Con: 12 Int: 14 Wis: 08 Cha: 08
2) I don't see the use for the second Ranger level! It doesn't help your AB and you don't gain any special abilities. Take Rogue instead, I know it doesn't change the final result but you will gain your rogue abilities one level earlier thus making the build more playable.
1) Good point. Never thought of that. I was making this character with playability from 1 to 40 in mind and I wanted to get him started straight away with his dual wield hand axes. But, lvl 2 would have made more sense. Thanks.
2) The 2nd Ranger level: This was how I calculated 4 attacks/round. In order to get the +16 BAB, I needed 4 lvls of ranger and/or WM pre-epic. I couldn't become a WM until lvl 19 in this build so 2 lvls had to be Ranger.
2) you're right.
Quote: Posted 03/25/05 14:30:53 (GMT) -- Banshe
1) Good point. Never thought of that. I was making this character with playability from 1 to 40 in mind and I wanted to get him started straight away with his dual wield hand axes. But, lvl 2 would have made more sense. Thanks.
Dual wielding from level 1 sometimes isnt the best idea however. Although its only a difference of 1 ab at level 1 (1-2=-1 against 0 BAB). You also gain 16 skill points taking rogue first.
Dual wielding from level 1 sometimes isnt the best idea however. Although its only a difference of 1 ab at level 1 (1-2=-1 against 0 BAB)
Actually, it's a difference of 2 ab in favor of the dual wielding ranger. He took weapon finesse as his 1st level feat, which he couldn't do if he started as a rogue. That's a +5 to AB right there. However, his penalty to each hand for dual wielding with this build won't be -2 as you appear to have it. It will be -4. Since it's a halfling, he would need to have a tiny weapon in his offhand to get the -2 penalty only. A light weapon like the handaxe actually counts as a medium weapon in the hands of the small races (halfling and gnome). So, as a 1st level ranger dual wielding hand axes he'll have two attacks (one for each hand) at an AB of 2, where as the first level rogue will have one attack with an AB of 0.
So it's a trade off really. Taking your first level as ranger and getting weapon finesse means you'll have a decent AB from the start (6 with just one axe, 2 in each hand when dual wielding axes), but you'll have less skill points over all. Taking rogue first means more skill points, but it also means you can't take weapon finesse until level 3, so you'll probably want to rely on a ranged weapon until then (and definitely don't want to dual wield until then either). I'd personally still opt for the rogue first for the extra skill points, but you have to make your own decision about what's more important to you at the lower levels.
Steve
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 03/27/05 10:14
If hand axe is medium then its not finessable for a halfling, which means a big hit on AB for choosing hand axes.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Uh oh. So that means he is not using his dex mod for fighting then...
I chose halfling for the favoured class rogue. But, if that is the case (medium weapon) than it impacts the build quite a bit...
It would have to be a tiny weapon, I guess (kukri?).
Are you absolutely sure about the medium vs light thing?
It says in the description: Use: Automatic when using any of the following weapons: dagger, hand axe etc.
So perhaps it overrides the medium weapon/ halfling issue?
The descriptions in the manuals are quite different to how they are implemented in the game. For example a short sword or rapier is not finessable by halfings. The actual description should read - one size smaller than the wielder - So medium races can use small, small races can use tiny. Exception being medium races can use rapier as well.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
OK, I just did a check and this is what I got:
Unarmed: 37/32/27/22 Tiny = Dagger: Same as Unarmed Small = Sickle: Same as Unarmed Small = Shortsword: Same as Unarmed Small = Handaxe: 42/37/32/27 Medium = Scimitar: 26/21/16/11
My Dex bonus = +11
Handaxe is also specialized hence the additional +5.
Edit: So I think that weapon finesse does work for Halflings with small weapons: handaxes (and shortswords, sickles etc.)
Edited By Banshe on 03/27/05 14:09
I did some testing a while ago and it seems that all small weapons (medium for the halfling/Gnome) are finessable, but none of them are light.
Huh? Sorry you lost me. Does this mean that my build is ok as far as getting the advantages of weapon finesse (hand axe) is concerned?
Handy info to know there.
Yes they are in fact finessable but from the point of view of using dual weapons they are -4/-4 and not -2/-2. This means that hand axes are still feasible at higher levels (where the difference between -2 and -4 is not so major).
but arghh all the same.
Oops, looks like I opened up a whole can of worms with my poor wording, lol. When it said it was considered a medium weapon for halflings, I should have said that's only a problem with respect to dual wielding, not with finessing. As long as the halfling can still use the weapon as a one-handed weapon, it can still be finessed. The only finesseable weapon a halfling cannot finesse is the rapier, because that's a two hander for a creature that small.
Steve
A good can 'o worms to open.
Just out of curiousity, for a medium sized creature dual wielding a medium weapon is -4 and a small weapon is -2. So what about a tiny weapon?
tiny weapons are always finessable/light
EDIT: in NWN anyway (a pixie probably can't use 2 NWN-tiny weapons).
Edited By MartinJHolm on 03/28/05 13:45
Yeah, the rule would probably be better stated something like this:
For a medium creature, the penalty for wielding a medium weapon in their offhand is a -4 to attacked from both hands. The penalty is reduced to -2 if the offhand weapon is at most light (i.e., it can be light or smaller, but the penalty doesn't get any less for weapons smaller than light).
Steve
Hmmm... except "light" is probably a relative term just as tiny/small/medium/large - what is light for a human might be heavy for a halfling.
I meant light in a technical sense, i.e. the weapons that the manual lists as "light". Once you start getting into calling weapons heavy or light depending on the size of the creature wielding it...yeah, it all gets messy and confusing.
Oops, looks like I opened up a whole can of worms with my poor wording, lol. When it said it was considered a medium weapon for halflings, I should have said that's only a problem with respect to dual wielding, not with finessing. As long as the halfling can still use the weapon as a one-handed weapon, it can still be finessed. The only finesseable weapon a halfling cannot finesse is the rapier, because that's a two hander for a creature that small.