I know it's a build that has been done to death, but strangely, i didnt find it in the index.
It's an extremely versatile build, able to survive in most of the situations. It only suffers from cleric's weaknesses, ie, get dispelled and you're dead, and it takes some times to be ready to fight.
Anyway, here's the build; feel free to comment it.
As a nature adept, the nature's crusader never attacks 1st. He 1st casts all his defensive buffs, and while his opponents try to get through his ac, he's unleashing the nature's powers : creeping doom. If he needs to heal, he can use his hellball to knockdown everything in the area, allowing him to heal and get back to the fight. With his weapon specialization, the nature's crusader crits 50% of his hits, dealing a fair amount of damages. Agaisnt dev critters, he still has a 50% concealment, a high ac, and of course some clouds of bugs dealing a high amount of damages, as long as his creeping dooms arent dispelled.
+ Pro : lot of versatility, fairly good in melee even unbuffed, has acces to all the clerical buffs - Lack of hp, and his save arent that great
Edited By griphook on 05/06/05 19:08
I find Cleric 21 Fighter 12 WM 7 works better as you can get Devastating Critical as well as Hellball should you want to.
-DaMouse
dev crit version is coming =;) I posted this version 1st, because I think even if the dev crit version of this build may be more effective, i think this version is more balanced between the feats & the skills. It is perhaps even more playable. The dev crit version is more effective in melee but more easily disrupted in magic; and a cleric without his buff is a dead cleric.
Here is the dev crit version.
Seems like a normal crusader too me, but one that worships a plant god. If you really wanted to be "nature's crusader" you'd have to at least take animal and plant domain for a cleric, or just switch to druid.
Well, the chosen domains are plant & trickery...Moreover, that build heavily relies on his creeping doom spell ( at least the non dev crit version )
Edited By Anglashell on 04/24/05 16:49
If you want the dev crit version, 12 ft/7wm version is not the better way to go.. sorry. We discussd this in another post, but you get more out of the build with 15+ wm lvls, ab wise.. droppin clr to 15 or so. Why? if you are making a cleric/wm, are spells really something you should be doing IN COMBAT? especially with tryin for dev crit (to many WASTED points to str for a caster). SO why do you need 20+ lvls of cleric? Buff durations?? use extend spell feat.
ANd why are these builds always HUMAN! lol
I wasnt gonna post my version cuz it seems to be done to death.. but it looks that i may have to.. regretably.
Quote: Posted 04/24/05 21:08:37 (GMT) -- avado ANd why are these builds always HUMAN! lol
Unless you go dwarf, you'd have an XP penalty if not human, going for the dwarf bonuses or the human extra feat/skill point is a bit of a toss up I think. I generally try to plan my builds without XP penalties if at all possible without crippling it.
Steve
The extra feat and skillpoints are also a big draw to the human. Unless your building an Arcane Archer or Dwarven Defender, human just has the biggest advantage.
or a 50% concealed epic dodge monk SD who needs to start at 20 dex
-DaMouse
Of course it is dwarf! What other race is there?
I am torn about the human race comments.. yes they get a feat and skill, blah blah, but each race has its thing (still lookin for halfling... ) It is an amateur who says that only defenders and arcane archers are the reasons NOT to use humans. Yes, sometimes people use race for rp reasons, but have you ever tried an elf cleric? They rule.. IF you build them with the right reasons (ie. taking elf for cleric then tryin to use a dwarf axe).
The thing that really confuses me is this: if you are a caster cleric, wm doesnt benefit you like other variants would, so why take 20+ lvls of cleric when 15 is more than enough to make a wm/clr variant? This type of cleric SHOULD be devoted to melee.. its why you take the wm lvls for the increase in multiplier and the ki crit at lv 7 (but everyone plays the way they want to, i know).
And there is a reason to play dwarf with clr/wm/ftr: the 6 in charisma! You can be an ornary bugger and be in character as you womp the competition with the 150 crits with your one hand wpn. It sorta makes charisma feats that are open to clerics useless.. and no turning at all.. but again, a cleric/ftr/weapon master SHOULD be a meleeist... not a caster or turner.
Edited By avado on 04/25/05 09:13
Yeah, there are definitely a number of reasons to pick non-human races for classes other than arcane archer and dwarven defender. I personally pick gnome over human hands down for my pure wizards, and I love playing elven or halfling rogue/fighters. And in this specific case, as I mentioned, I think the dwarf bonuses are at least as good as the extra skill/feat for humans. Probably better honestly, because builds with any decent amount of fighter levels are rarely that desperate for feats.
Steve
Quote: but have you ever tried an elf cleric? They rule
I Agree 100%, i've played one and know a few friends who play either pure clerics of the elven variety or a combo of elven clerics and they work a treat!
Edited By Blunkanthrust on 04/25/05 15:22
Well, I'm glad to have sparked some contoversy! Sadly, I spend most of my time PvPing, so my builds usually start out as a probelm, IE; "what will survive this devcritter or how much SR+ saves will I need to kill this mage or how can I dish out 1000 points of X type of damage from a range...ect". Consequently, this will put a premium on how many skillpoints I have to spend by the close of the build. Call me amature (or other names if preferred) but elves have less hitpoints, halflings and gnomes fail at knockdowns, halforks start with less ability scores, ALL other races net 40 less skillpoints AND have a favored class that usually ends up slowing your xp progression to a crawl. Fact is, unless you are after a specific racial ability, be it prestige class, save bonus or what have you, choosing a race other than human will hobble your build. Seriously, am I being a fantasy racist here? Last I heard, this was the epic character builders guild: a tool for people seeking maximum output from a build. Am I offending any real dwarves on the other side of a keyboard?
Quote: halforks start with less ability scores
I wonder if Pure Forks get good ability scores then _________________ Yume No Chikara
The power of Dreams. In Japan you don't say have a dream, you say see a dream.
Edited By Blunkanthrust on 04/25/05 22:14
Death is in the details friend. Name calling and nit-picking dont make these builds any better. RP is fine after the fact, but the builds section is for builds. Please explain how an elf is better for you and you will have no more arguement from me. Is it the choice of rapier as a starting weapon? The dex/con tradeoff? Active search? Please, if you have something constructive that I may have overlooked, do tell.
Quote: Posted 04/25/05 22:05:08 (GMT) -- Deltutammatre Fact is, unless you are after a specific racial ability, be it prestige class, save bonus or what have you, choosing a race other than human will hobble your build.
Where do you draw the line as too what defines a "specific racial ability" or "what have you"? Would the need for high dex count as a specific racial ability of elves and halflings, and thus not a valid counter example to your argument. This statement seems very close to "Unless your build would be better with a non-human race, you'd be better off picking human", which is fairly circular reasoning, so I'm assuming you do have a few things in mind that wouldn't count.
Honestly, I've never considered the Epic Character Guild to be solely devoted to, as you say, maximum output from a build. There are many builds here that are just interesting level 40 builds, something new and fun to play that someone else may never have thought of before. The number of builds that start off by saying something to the effect of "this may not be the most uber build, but..." would indicate many people here are at least sometimes motivated by something other than squeezing the last possible ounce of damage out of their creations.
As for specific examples...as I mentioned, I think gnomes make very good pure wizards. The fact that gnomes get more easily knocked down is irrelevent. A human pure mage is going to be knocked down just as easily, since they'll also have basically no discipline, and any, if your wizard is in the position to be knocked down...either your in the wrong position, or you want the fighter to beat himself to death on your reciprocal damage shields while epic warding absorbs the blows. The con boost at the expense of strength is very useful, the small stature gives them a little boost in the AC department (not a big deal though), the spell focus (Illusion) can be quite handy, especially at low levels, as is the little boost to concentration. The loss of one skill point is not exactly critical for a wizards, since their Int is very high and they simply don't have a ton of useful skills anyway.
Dwarves also make excellent fighter/clerics. Again, the boost to CON is always handy for a non fighter, and the CHA hit doesn't really matter (a really melee focused build using cleric for buffs isn't going to put much in CHA whatever race you choose). You get some nice advantages against a number of common enemy types, a slight boost to your lore, which is always welcome, not to mention an innate +2 to saves against spells (like getting 10 ranks of spellcraft for free). Again, a pure melee build is not going to miss one less skill point per level, and a fighter build also generally doesn't hurt for feats, especially considering the other advantages.
There are also rogue archer builds that focus on getting the most out of ranged sneak attacks, and use halfling for the 20 dex, the AB, AC, and hiding bonuses. That would be an example where you really can't max out the AB and AC going human instead.
That being said, we should probably take this discussion to the general forum if people are still interested in continuing it. It doesn't belong in the thread for some poor person's build.
Steve
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 04/26/05 08:55
Well, so far I dont complain; that template created a debate, but except the fact that this build is based on a human, no complain. So I guess I didnt make lots of mistakes. ^^ - The only thing I totally disagree with is that having 16 or 19 lvls of weapon master would make it more efficient. This build is mainly a cleric that uses the weapon master ability to be stronger in melee. It's not a fighter with some cleric's spells. I dont say one build is better than the other; simply, it's not the same build. I wanted it to be efficient between magic & melee. You can play it as a buffing fighter, a healer, or as a caster even if he wont be very powerfull; but harm & creeping doom will still work as you'll have lot of spells. And concerning the choice of human race, well, just check the feats this template has: 90% of his feats are only for taking dev crit or becoming weapon master...The main problem is imo feats, not hp... - I'd like to add too, that when i play a toon that has the ability to heal himself, having a bonus in Co isnt the priority. - Finally, someone said cleric21/fighter12 ws better. Unless i'm wrong, you have a free feat at 23rd lvl of cleric, so have you at 12th lvl of fighter. So in term of numbers of feats, i think it's the same. The only difference would be if you took more fighter lvls preepic. Moreover, on the pw world i play you can be quite easiliy disrupted, and usually the longer you buff last, the better it is, and dont forget too than relying on creeping dooms spells with less than 20 lvls of clerics would be just useless.
Steve's comments, while seeming a bit angry, are at least constructive and on topic. My argument for being human on this post (instead of elf or gnome for instance) was the need to qualify for weaponmaster pre-epic. It's 6 feat requirement for the prestige class and pre epic cost of 4 feats for devcrit can be covered more easily by a human, who would then only need to take 2 levels of fighter pre epic instead of 4, leaving a better (just my opinion) possibility of choices for meelee and casting post epic. While the entire guild may not be wild about munchkining, it is the image put forth by our builds page, with special emphasis on getting the most out of your toons. Don't most people post builds to see if anyone can give them another angle on them? Someone asked why human earlier in the topic. My answer, despite facing undue and off-topic ridicule was simple: 1 bonus feat, 40 more skillpoints upon completion and no xp penalty. I dont see people's need to flame a typo and take things to a personal level. It's like nobody remembers Tyr Paladin.
Quote: Posted 04/27/05 00:50:41 (GMT) -- Deltutammatre Steve's comments, while seeming a bit angry, are at least constructive and on topic.
. I guess I can see where you would get this impression from the first two paragraphs (they read a bit differently than I meant them to), but I assure you, it would take a lot more than a discussion over the best race for a character build to make me angry . I am quite enjoying the discussion actually. I was just honestly looking for clarification in the first paragraph, and the second one...well I just didn't mean it so come off as angry, but I can definitely see why it might appear that way.
Quote: My argument for being human on this post (instead of elf or gnome for instance) was the need to qualify for weaponmaster pre-epic. It's 6 feat requirement for the prestige class and pre epic cost of 4 feats for devcrit can be covered more easily by a human, who would then only need to take 2 levels of fighter pre epic instead of 4, leaving a better (just my opinion) possibility of choices for meelee and casting post epic.
I completely agree. I think this particular build is better human too (I posted earlier in support of human or dwarf earlier for this build, although I would most likely go human). My other comments were about using other races in general, not specifically this build.
Quote: While the entire guild may not be wild about munchkining, it is the image put forth by our builds page, with special emphasis on getting the most out of your toons. Don't most people post builds to see if anyone can give them another angle on them?
Yes, most builds do focus on getting the most out of your character, but not all. But you're right, while there are a number of interesting non-uber builds, the majority would probably fall under the munchkin classification. I just don't think that that necessarily means human all the way. I think that in certain cases (like those I listed above) there are reasons to go non-human for a stronger build.
Quote: Someone asked why human earlier in the topic. My answer, despite facing undue and off-topic ridicule was simple: 1 bonus feat, 40 more skillpoints upon completion and no xp penalty.
Again, completely agree both with the race and with the undue and off-topic nature of the ridicule
Quote: I dont see people's need to flame a typo and take things to a personal level. It's like nobody remembers Tyr Paladin.
Oh lord, the last thing we need, another one of those. But just to be sure, I apologize if any of that is targetted at me, as I never intended anything I said to come off as a personal attack.
Steve
Quote: Posted 04/26/05 09:55:29 (GMT) -- Anglashell - The only thing I totally disagree with is that having 16 or 19 lvls of weapon master would make it more efficient. This build is mainly a cleric that uses the weapon master ability to be stronger in melee. It's not a fighter with some cleric's spells. I dont say one build is better than the other; simply, it's not the same build. I wanted it to be efficient between magic & melee. You can play it as a buffing fighter, a healer, or as a caster even if he wont be very powerfull; but harm & creeping doom will still work as you'll have lot of spells.
You can always tell the INTENT of the builder by the way s/he uses feats and skills and stats. In BOTH builds above you SHOW that you lean towards melee! How? str of 22 and 25! Wis of 19 AND CHA of 8! I am sorry, but this build is a meleeist build! A cleric build based on, like you suggest.. doin all things well, wouldnt need a str highr than 18 at most (and that is being VERY wasteful)and would need high wisdom and some charisma. So, with just using the stats alone, your use of str dictates a meleeist... sorry but its right there. THen, taking wm to lv 15 at least is gonna give some nice needed AB and taking it to 16/19 will give you the bonus feat to get dev crit! (your build not mine).
Please, stop the flames.. if a person wants to make a cleric that is good a melee and casting, make a WIS based cleric! Pump the stuffings out of wisdom and USE the RIGHT spells! A cleric can be both without dev crit! But PLEASE dont make a wm build and say it isnt about melee! It would be like making a arcane archer and not even bother using a bow. The feats that are required make it a very poor choice for a caster type. THe basic truth is that when you make a wm you do it for 1) the increase in multi 2) the extra crit range (esp stopping at lv 7)
I think there is this big dev crit thingy that seems to suggest that if your character doesnt have a str of 40 he isnt good.. CLerics dont need high str to make them meleeists! High str sorta forces them to be a meleeist! (i know 22str isnt high, but the other stats lack cuz of it). IMHO if what you wanted was a jack of all trades cleric.. learn how to play a real cleric! Lv 40 cleric! well, maybe 35cl/5ftr (only for 4 atts and epws). THey have EVERYTHING that a jack of all trades needs (and that is what you are tryin with this cl21/ft/wm7 thingy). Please, i am looking for honesty in builds and i havent played with you but if i did i would most certainly see you swinging alot more than casting. All i suggested was how to make your build more capable in that area. My fault was assuming that you would understand why i suggestd the 16/19 wm lvls.. for that i apologize.
Finally, if you missed it : "You can play it as a buffing fighter, a healer, or as a caster even if he wont be very powerfull".. this is a cleric. Not a ftr/wm cleric, but a cleric. If you dont understand, please dont post a cleric build. It is redundant to suggest that adding ftr/wm lvls to clerics make them more so.. (notice the redundancy of my post.. repetition is the mother of education.. hence why i am reluctant to ever post a cleric build for having them misunderstood).
Edited By avado on 04/27/05 03:18
Honestly, that clearly crossed the line from suggesting improvement to a build to actually telling someone not to post something because you don't agree with it. And quite frankly, that's ridiculous. You have absolutely no right to tell anyone not to post whatever build they want, as long as it's a legal build. Whether it's good, bad, indifferent, whatever, telling someone "don't post a cleric build" because you don't like it is incredibly rude. If you don't like someone's build, and they listen to your suggestions and decide not to implement them, then let them have their build in peace. Your comments are already in the thread for everyone to see without telling another member with the same rights as you not to post whatever build they want.
It seems the TyrPaladin reference was rather prescient, Deltutammatre.
Steve
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 04/27/05 07:51
@ avado: I've never said that kind of build wasnt a meleist; of course it's a meleist. All I said is that I wanted it to be effective both in melee and in magic areas. I dont doubt that more lvls of wm would be a great improvment in melee, but taking only 15-16 lvls of clerics as you suggested would be imo a great loss in magic efficiency, especially since you'll loose lvl9 spells ( UEF, implosion ), and will only have a few lvl8 spells. That's why I didnt choose that way.
Now i totally agree on the fact that this build can easily be improved; and that's why i'm impatient to see more comments or even an example of how you would make such a build ( ie at least 20 lvl of clerics and some wm lvl )
I wonder if Pure Forks get good ability scores then
Nothing beats a good spork! _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Steve, I am sorry you think my comments crossed the line. I wasnt suggesting at all that one shouldnt post a cleric build, or any build for that matter. What i said is that IF you don't understand the class or the character you are building, please dont suggest that you know how to use it and post a build for all to see. I was making it reference to a comment about how the builder said he didnt understand how taking 16/19 wm levels would improve his character (which, is an improvement JUST LIKE HE ASKED FOR in last post). And, btw, i think the builder here made an excellent build. The only thing i suggested originally, was to take more wm lvls, and leave the cleric to 15, cuz it isnt a caster build, and the 20+ cleric lvls were not the most effective choice for how the character was set up to be played (stats + skills + feats), and he could infact, make a cleric that, if he got dispelled, COULD hold his own in combat.. instead of being, well a dispelled cleric = dead
Peace
Edited By avado on 04/27/05 16:04
Yeah, I'm not debating the merit of your build suggestions, as I think they're accurate and good. I just got rankled by some of the end of your post, which based on your response, probably came off more harshly than you actually intended (seems to be a lot of that going around )
Anyway, while I'm here...Implosion probably won't be that effective except perhaps against mages and rogues with this build, due to the low DC from low wisdom. Undeath's Eternal Foe would work fine though.
@ avado: I've never said that kind of build wasnt a meleist; of course it's a meleist. All I said is that I wanted it to be effective both in melee and in magic areas. I dont doubt that more lvls of wm would be a great improvment in melee, but taking only 15-16 lvls of clerics as you suggested would be imo a great loss in magic efficiency, especially since you'll loose lvl9 spells ( UEF, implosion ), and will only have a few lvl8 spells. That's why I didnt choose that way.
Now i totally agree on the fact that this build can easily be improved; and that's why i'm impatient to see more comments or even an example of how you would make such a build ( ie at least 20 lvl of clerics and some wm lvl )
Without intending to hijack the current build thread, here's a build of mine per your request:
Bishop Ridley
Classes: Fighter 12/Cleric 21/WM 7 Race: Human Alignment: Any Domains: Strength, Trickery
Stats (start) (finish) Str 15 20 Dex 14 15 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 14 20 Cha 8
AC 18 HP 310 BA 29 AB: Single Sword: 39/32/29/24 52/47/42/37 AB: Dual 35/30/25/20 & 35/30 Saves: Fort 23, Reflex 21, Will 24 Feats: Max: Conc, Disc, Spell, Lore 21, Appraise 10, Tumble 20
Edit: The idea behind this build was that I was on a PW that had longswords with great elemental damage and great vampiric regeneration. My concept was primarily to be a cleric, but I needed the Fighter levels for melee capabilities. And then I threw in Weapon Master to further buff up the melee capabilities (eg if I were dispelled). I understand that longswords in the offhand carry a penalty due to their size, but I felt the Fighter and WM levels offset that penalty. One could easily choose any weapons of choice to dual wield. _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Edited By Kaliban99 on 04/27/05 17:16
what if you Change the levels around and use Pally instead of fighter ???? any chance to see what it turns out to be ? and it will have to be human, w/ like strength and war domains and increase to Char as much as possible for the pally boosts divine might and shield ? and a bit of divine favor ?
An alternative choice would be to use Cot instead of fighter. Except the leveling order, there wouldnt be any changes. But taking paladin instead of fighter would be extremely costly in term of feats...It could make a good character, but really different from this one. Moreover the charisma isnt exceptionnal in this build, and the spells of a pally lvl10 are redundant with the cleric ones...So i dont think it would create something better in the end...
) It is an amateur who says that only defenders and arcane archers are the reasons NOT to use humans. Yes, sometimes people use race for rp reasons, but have you ever tried an elf cleric? They rule.. IF you build them with the right reasons (ie. taking elf for cleric then tryin to use a dwarf axe).
. I guess I can see where you would get this impression from the first two paragraphs (they read a bit differently than I meant them to), but I assure you, it would take a lot more than a discussion over the best race for a character build to make me angry 
An alternative choice would be to use Cot instead of fighter. Except the leveling order, there wouldnt be any changes.