Dwarven Warmonger (or Battle Bard, War Pig, War Minstrel...I'm sure these are all taken)
This build came out about due to my belief that somewhere in the D&D universe there was a lawfully-aligned Bard, and he happened to be a Dwarf.
It also sprang from my belief that "the Bard is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be 'unnatural'".
Race: Dwarf Alignment: True Neutral to Lawful Neutral Class: Bard/Red Dragon Disciple/Dwarven Defender Levels: 5/10/25 Hit Points: A lot Naked AC: Not too shabby
Hit Points: 8d6=48 2d8=16 5d10=50 25d12=300 Con= 240 Toughness=40 Max Total= 694 Defensive Stance(12/day)+80 =Total 774
AB: 40/35/30/26(unbuffed with just a rusty great axe)
Naked AC: 21
Levels: 1. Bard Power Attack 2. Bard 3. Bard Cleave 4. Bard Str 15 5. Bard Lore 8 6. RDD Dodge 7. RDD 8. RDD, Str 18 9. RDD Toughness Str 20 10. RDD 11. RDD 12. DwD Weapon Focus(Greataxe), Con 19 13. DwD 14. DwD 15. DwD Great Cleave 16. DwD, Str 21 17. RDD, Con 21 18. DwD Improved Crit 19. DwD 20. DwD, Str 22 21. RDD DR I 22. RDD Int 12 23. RDD Chr 13, Str 26, Max Spellcraft to 25 24. DwD EWF, Con 22 25. DwD 26. DwD 27. DwD, Overwhelming 28. DwD Str 27 29. DwD DRII 30. DwD, Dev Crit 31. DwD 32. DwD, Str 28 33. DwD, Armor Skin, DR III 34. DwD 35. DwD 36. DwD, Epic Prowess, Str 29 37. DwD Energy Resistance 10 38. DwD 39. DwD, Energy Resistance 20 40. DwD, Str 30
Regrets: Making Alignment change( at least going from Neutral to Lawful/Neutral isn't a polar opposite). Not being able to take 1 more lvl of DwD for the Epic Nouns feat. Not being able to take any more Bard after Lvl 5. Although, I was considering taking another lvl of Bard right before going DwD, and just postpone 1 lvl of RDD into Epic.
Non-regrets: Have Massive natural Str that he can still augment with Bard's Bulls Strength. Have Massive Con with all Epic DR I, II, III and the DwD DR's which stack, for a 15 DR, along with complete Fire Immunity and 20 Electrical Resistance. Can go into Defensive Stance for +4 more Str that stacks with Bull's Str and 80 more Hit Points( at lvl 40). Has a crappy bard song that grants +1hit +2 Dam to help make up for not having Weapon specialization. Has Devastating Critical where it counts, but would in a pinch happily trade them for some more Great Cons, Energy Resistances, or Epic Toughnesses. Has a +5 Save to magic to help with Will Saves. He's a Dwarf.
Additional: Finally, unbuffed I noted he had a Discipline score of 53, and that he could lug 1300 pounds. Again, I keep having an image of a Rhino.
In comparing him to the Dwarven Wall, I think this guy wins in tryouts. He's stronger(30 vs. 26), has the same Con, only 86 Hit points less, is just as smart, just as quick, and way better looking. Furthermore, the Warmonger has the same Damage Reduction, but has Fire Immunity and Electrical Resistance, where the Wall does not. The Warmonger also has better saves due to 26+ you can pump into Spellcraft. And, for whatever reason, the Wall doesn't even have Epic Weapon Specialization and doesn't pick up EWF until 40th level. The Warmonger not only picks up EWF way earlier than this (lvl 24), but picks up Devastating Crit earlier as well.(Side note: Granted, there are many things that could be improved about the Wall in its build, Warmonger aside).
Furthermore, the Warmonger can self-buff with some decent 2nd lvl Bard spells and has a meager 5th lvl Bard song to give him a further +1, +2 dam.
There is that small matter of alignment...details, details. _________________ "Me fail English? That's unpossible." ---Ralph Wiggum
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 10/14/07 13:44
One additional note; I had listed his Damage reduction at 15/-. This is incorrect. It should actually read DR 24/-.
PS--If somebody can find a way to get that 26th level of DwD without breaking the build, I'd be eternally grateful. _________________ "Well, he's kind of had it in for me ever since I accidentally ran over his dog. Actually, replace 'accidentally' with 'repeatedly,' and replace 'dog' with 'son.'" ----Lionel Hutz
Geat build I like it:) On a side note the only thing I'd do to this build is drop at lvl 40, DWD, and replace it with Bard, for the tumble and a little umd.; as the DWD on lvl 40 is netting you nothing
Geat build I like it:) On a side note the only thing I'd do to this build is drop at lvl 40, DWD, and replace it with Bard, for the tumble and a little umd.; as the DWD on lvl 40 is netting you nothing
Jim,(Fist.)
That needs another alignment shift. IMO this is one great build. Hats off to you GD.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Aye its a nice combination, I like it a lot, pity about the alignment shift though.
cool build. rdd and dd give a good mix of offensive and defensive capabilities.
I don't see any way of lowering the number of bard levels, so you might as well go for bard 8/rdd 10/dd 22. This will give you +1 ab from bardsong and give you a few more songs (only need 15 perform). You'll also get some more spells and they'll all last a little bit longer. All this without effecting the total dr of the build.
The extra dd levels give you nothing except more hps, which you'll have a ton already. Your ab is relatively low, so you'll need all the help you can get with it.
I played this build (though not as refined) on Athas Reborn. He was as tough as nails, going toe to toe in lots of fire-based PvM and coming out unscathed. If I ever finished him, I prolly wouldda eaten the alignment change for the plus 8 to AC and spell saves. Oh, UMD is a nice thing for tanks to have too, adding a ton of versatility
Thanks for the feedback, guys.
Regarding dropping the last DwD level: yes, it doesn't get me much. However, dropping it for Bard would require another alignment shift. I can't justify it.
As the alignment shift is concerned, I view it as a roleplaying challenge. You can start the character Neutral/Good, and you have 11 levels to make that alignment shift to Lawful Good. Or you can start Neutral and progress to Lawful Neutral (Or Neutral Evil to Lawful Evil). I call this character development. Growth. Maturity. And it's not a major alignment shift. Unfortunately, evil characters have it made in that all they have to do is go out and slay some innocents, and they're there. But the challenge is to go from Neutral to Lawful. This, I feel, is not a major change, and we can readily find examples of people in real life that go through similar "growths of character."
On a different thought, someone suggested taking 8 levels of Bard. This is not a bad idea. However, they have to be taken pre-epic, and they have to be taken before the first DwD level. This means the character will mature later than earlier. Martial Weapons proficiency won't be acquired until level 17, and Weapon Focus will be put off until Lvl 18. Of course, this is using an 8/8/4 template pre-epic. You could also postpone some of the RDD levels until Epic, and take Bard that way, going along an 8/4/8 Track, or an 8/7/5 track. However, the deeper you take Bard in pre-epic, the more hamstrung you will be because the build is relying on the RDD +2 Charisma at 10th lvl. Otherwise, you will be an 8th lvl Bard with only 1st level spells. I suppose you could take a drop in Str to raise Charisma at character creation, but it doesn't seem to be a solution that's better than the one in place. But in all of these various scenarios, the build matures much later. My goal was to make this build as playable as possible from the bottom up. I still think more Bard levels can be done, though, in pre-epic, but one would need to tweak those starting stats just a little. Perhaps lower Con to 17 and put those two points into Charisma.
Regardless, by 12th level and above, this guy should be tanked-up in full plate, or whatever is the best armour available, and crushing the skulls of his opponent. There won't be a whole lot of room for him to be spell casting. I provided for some small buffs, bulls strengths, etc. I think the build has room for a 6th lvl of Bard pre-epic, and that's it. He would need to take it just a few points shy of making that alignment shift into th 80 Lawful territory. This, more than anything, would get his Tumble up, his perform up, and his UMD up. After that, all points are spent on Discipline in DwD levels, and on Spellcraft in RDD levels. Remainders are crossclassed into Tumble.
This build should have no problem soloing, and should be invaluable in PvP. Versus a Bard/RDD/Fighter, this guy should defeat him, though it would be an interesting fight. My guess is that a Bard-heavy version would fare better than a Fighter-heavy version, as this guy will not only take all his hits, but will more than likely make his Fort Save on any Devastating Crits.
Again, thanks for all the feedback. It's been a pleasure. _________________ Homer: Lisa, would you like a donut? Lisa: No thanks. Do you have any fruit? Homer: This has purple in it. Purple is a fruit.
Edited By grizzled_dwarflord on 05/04/05 01:48
good points regarding the 8 bard level build variant. I was thinking about it as taking the last 3 bard levels at 38-40 after a second alignment shift, but that option may not be available in every environment. taking it pre-epic would definitely change the build quite a bit and would require some reworking.
While this thread seems a bit dated, I thought I'd post a quick comment of my own anyway.
I was curious if I might be missing something in regard to qualifying for RDD. Would I be amiss in suggesting sorceror as opposed to bard for the first five levels? My thought was that you could somehow get Still spell in there (delay power attack/cleave and nix one of the later feats), and get 4 stilled doses of true strike per day. Not sure if this is feasible, but if it were it might give you some offensive punch. I know you'd lose one point of AC from tumble and one point from your BAB as well, so maybe it wouldn't be a good tradeoff.
Just a thought.
I feel like I almost have to be missing something, so please be gentle if I'm way off base.
Thanks! Chris
Quote: Posted 08/02/05 06:54:26 (GMT) -- chsmi
While this thread seems a bit dated, I thought I'd post a quick comment of my own anyway.
I was curious if I might be missing something in regard to qualifying for RDD. Would I be amiss in suggesting sorceror as opposed to bard for the first five levels? My thought was that you could somehow get Still spell in there (delay power attack/cleave and nix one of the later feats), and get 4 stilled doses of true strike per day. Not sure if this is feasible, but if it were it might give you some offensive punch. I know you'd lose one point of AC from tumble and one point from your BAB as well, so maybe it wouldn't be a good tradeoff.
Just a thought.
I feel like I almost have to be missing something, so please be gentle if I'm way off base.
Thanks! Chris
The Warmonger Lives! Man, this was my first build in the Guild....and looking back on it, what was I thinking? Funny that, for I am still using this build with a group as we battle our way through the 9 planes of Hell in the Mines of Twin Summit series.
To answer your question, Sorceror was not chosen due to its slow BAB progression. This also means that he doesn't reach a full attack routine. Additionally, Bard was chosen to give the class a decent skill set in early levels(Tumble most notably). However, if you chose Sorcerer, you wouldn't need to Still True Strike as it is a Verbal Component only. But True Strike aside, by Lvl 9 his AB is going to be rival any melee characters, and so he really shouldn't need it. In fact, playing him all the way through Epic, there's never been a need for True Strike, but it is all environment dependent.
However, if the alignment change is tough, you could easily drop Bard for Sorc and just lose full attack routine and a slight drop in AB. Your AC loss from not having Tumble would be temporary, as the class eventually cross-classes this skill anyway in the latter portions of Epic.
In a revised version, he is actually an 8/10/22, and so takes 8Bard/4RDD/8DwD in pre-epic to gain 1 more BAB, 1 more AC, more skill points, better BardSong, and a better spell selection. _________________ I'm Grizzled Dwarflord, and I approve this message.
I'm Grizzled Dwarflord, and I approve this message.
_________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Edited By Kaliban99 on 08/02/05 16:05
Quote: Posted 08/02/05 14:16:40 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord In a revised version, he is actually an 8/10/22, and so takes 8Bard/4RDD/8DwD in pre-epic to gain 1 more BAB, 1 more AC, more skill points, better BardSong, and a better spell selection.
hey grizz do u mind giving some details on the 8/10/22 split. i like the idea of the build and would like to try it myself. thanks, Drake _________________ http://www.helpwinmybet.com/
Quote: Posted 08/02/05 14:16:40 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord In a revised version, he is actually an 8/10/22, and so takes 8Bard/4RDD/8DwD in pre-epic to gain 1 more BAB, 1 more AC, more skill points, better BardSong, and a better spell selection.
hey grizz do u mind giving some details on the 8/10/22 split. i like the idea of the build and would like to try it myself. thanks, Drake
There's really not much more detail to give. The pre-epic distribution is Bard 8/RDD 4/DwD 8, as Grizz mentioned. In order to keep the alignment shifts to a minimum, you'd need to go all 8 Bard first, or go with 7 bard and 4 RDD (in whatever order you feel you want), taking your 8th Bard at level 12. That will actually net you +2 on AC (from topped up Tumble ranks). Keep in mind, if you take your last Bard level at level 12, you'll have to be able to switch alignments to Lawful quite quickly, as your next level has to be DwD.
Other than that, just make sure you keep your Perform ranks (modified) at a level to support your Song. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
If you wanted to save a few levels til' epic if you feel you can change alignment again to get tumble to 40, you might want to have something like Bard 6/ RDD 4/ DD 10 pre-epic leaving 2 levels post-epic for skill dumps, say one after getting RDD to 10 or just before, before you switch to DD levels and one at 40. _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
I would start as bard(6)/RDD(8)/DD(6) (or bard(6)/RDD(6)/DD(8), doesn't matter) pre-epic (better bard song, better saving throws) and make him a bard(6)/RDD(12)/DD(22). Taking additinal RDD levels would allow you to maximize spellcraft since it's a class skill for RDDs. Afaik you don't lose anything because at class level 23-25 the DD gets nothing important. And most important it's not a RDD(10) build . _________________ Character Build Calculator(works with Excel, Open Office) 2.83: updated to NWN 1.69.
Edited By Kamiryn on 11/22/05 07:22
We're mostly a bunch of munchkins and we like our tumble but I suppose RDD is a good option if you can't get any more alignment changes. _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
hmmm i like the build ideas i guess i just need to sit down and create it to see how it works out. where i pplay alignment isnt really an issue so i change back to the Bard at 40 for the tumble and UMD like i want. but if anyone happens ot have a 8/10/22 split let me know.
I would start as bard(6)/RDD(8)/DD(6) (or bard(6)/RDD(6)/DD(8), doesn't matter) pre-epic (better bard song, better saving throws) and make him a bard(6)/RDD(12)/DD(22). Taking additinal RDD levels would allow you to maximize spellcraft since it's a class skill for RDDs. Afaik you don't lose anything because at class level 23-25 the DD gets nothing important. And most important it's not a RDD(10) build .
Hmmmm, I like the way you think, Cowboy! _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
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but I suppose RDD is a good option if you can't get any more alignment changes.