Playable from level 1 - 40 ..PvM + PvP Build

Here's a build to consider:

The Harper Negotiator is a special agent of the harpers who is sent, when all else fails, to settle disputes, hostage crisis situations, uprisings, and to offer peace proposals between enemies. With an unprecedented 30 in Persuade skill and his Eagle Splendour powers, he can tell a man to "go to Hell" and make him look forward to going. However, when negotiations break down, the Negotiator still has one more tool of Persuasion-- his deadly daggers. He is highly "persuasive" with these. Although he doesn't deliver devastating criticals, you can be assured that enemies will rarely even touch him. With his high AB and AC (and even higher when he Cat's Graces himself x2), he is a turbulent shadow that leaves moans of pain and entrails in his wake. He can effortlessly avoid every attack, and then, when Hasted, deals 7 attacks of his own. If he is dealing a sneak attack, each dagger will have added 13d6 damage to each stroke of the blade.

Build Highlights:
Epic Dodge and Self-Concealment, and taken very quickly in the build
Sneak Attacks: 13d6
Good AC
Good AB
Harper and Halfling Save Bonuses, Tymora's Smile
Can self-buff with Invisibility and Cat's Grace, and can make his own potions
High Set Traps
UMD

Title: Harper Negotiator
Race: Halfling
Class: Rogue/Fighter/Harper
Levels: 25/10/5
Alignment: Neutral
Hit Points: 280
Naked AC: 30 (31)
AB: 40/35/30/25/40/35(17-20/x2)
Skill Points: 350


Str: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Dex: 20 (34)
Con: 10
Chr: 8

Saves
Fort: 22 (24)
Reflex: 33 (36)
Will: 19 (21)

Skills:
Persuade: 30
Set Traps: 40
Search: 25
Discipline: 30
Tumble: 40
Hide: 43
Move Silently: 42
Disable Traps: 30
Open Locks: 20
Listen: 20
UMD: 24
Lore: 6

1) Rogue 1, Strong Soul
2) Fighter 1, Weap Fin
3) Fighter 2, Ambidexterity, Weap Focus Dagger
4) Fighter 3, Dex 21
5) Fighter 4, Weapon Specialization, Dagger
6) Rogue 2, TWF
7) Rogue 3,
8) Rogue 4, Dex 22
9) Fighter 5, Knockdown
10) Fighter 6, Improved TWF
11) Rogue 5,
12) Rogue 6, Improved Crit Dagger, Dex 23
13) Rogue 7
14) Rogue 8
15) Rogue 9, Iron Will
16) Fighter 7, Dex 24
17) Rogue 10, Improved Evasion
18) Fighter 8, Improved Knockdown, Alertness
19) Rogue 11
20) Rogue 12, Dex 25
21) Fighter 9, Epic WF
22) Fighter 10, EWS
23) Harper 1, Great Dex I(26)
24) Rogue 13, Dex 27, Defensive Roll, Epic Dodge
25) Harper 2
26) Harper 3
27) Harper 4, Great Dex II(28)
28) Harper 5, GreatDexIII(29), Dex 30
29) Rogue 14
30) Rogue 15, SC I
31) Rogue 16, SC II
32) Rogue 17, Dex 31
33) Rogue 18, SC III
34) Rogue 19, SC IV
35) Rogue 20
36) Rogue 21, Dex 32, SC V
37) Rogue 22
38) Rogue 23,
39) Rogue 24, Great Dex IV(33), Slippery Mind
40) Rogue 25, Dex 34


Regrets: In a build like this, I like to get Expertise and Improved Expertise. It is still feasible by dropping TWF feats and going with a short sword, in addition to picking up Blind-fighting/Toughness. However, I don't think his AC will ever be an issue. Spellchuckers would be the bane of this guy. Demi-liches would be difficult, methinks. He still has Traps and some UMD to fall back on. Slippery Mind might actually be worth taking early on, and just bump SC feats a little further down the line..
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"Well, he's kind of had it in for me ever since I accidentally ran over his dog. Actually, replace 'accidentally' with 'repeatedly,' and replace 'dog' with 'son.'" ----Lionel Hutz

Edited By Kail Pendragon on 10/14/07 13:44

well demi liches are hard for anybody without magical equipment because of the DR, dexters just cant hit hard enough to overcome it where as a Pal/cot type char can pretty much smite once and kill it.

Love the build, I really like concept builds in general, I could have liked to see points in appraise and intimidate as well but I guess you cannot have it all. One possible idea:

Drop Strong Soul, pick up Weapon Proficiency: Exotic, and use kukris instead of daggers. It's a personal preference thing, but I like the extra crit range (especially early on) in exchange for just 1 point from the saves that are frankly never going to be good anyway.

Steve I did some calculations on the dagger/kukri comparison.

If your opponent has 10 more AC than your AB then out of 120 attacks you gain 2 more criticals than with the dagger(10 instead of . Hardly worth the outlay of the feat IMO. If you require less than 10 to hit your opponent do you really need the higher critical range anyway.

Syrath
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It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!! Just a few questions. I'm not a good builder, so I hope these questions are of relevance/make sense:
I'm not sure I see the benefit of the knockdown, would expertise+imp expertise not be better for this build? Reason being; is that with your bab you're not going to be knocking down the things that _can_ get through your ac (I would think).

Second; maybe swapping a grt dex for epic focus: umd would help a little on the equipment side (a lot of the better 'epic' kit will need 50 or better umd to use; epic f:umd will give you about 52 with your lower cha).

Third; would this not work better with an elf using COT instead of fighter? Elf can dualwield shortswords with same penalty as halfling+daggers, and there would be no xp penalty (I know halfling would have none anyway as rogue is favoured, just thinking out loud on elf options) It would be taken later; sure, but you could still fit the same feats (I think?) and get the same benefits as you would for fighter wouldn't you?

Edited By Khandahr on 05/13/05 10:11

Quote: Posted 05/13/05 10:09:42 (GMT) -- Khandahr

Just a few questions. I'm not a good builder, so I hope these questions are of relevance/make sense:
I'm not sure I see the benefit of the knockdown, would expertise+imp expertise not be better for this build? Reason being; is that with your bab you're not going to be knocking down the things that _can_ get through your ac (I would think).
You can knock down anything on a roll of 20, only a high discipline prevents this. If its knocked down you are sneak attacking.
Quote: 
Second; maybe swapping a grt dex for epic focus: umd would help a little on the equipment side (a lot of the better 'epic' kit will need 50 or better umd to use; epic f:umd will give you about 52 with your lower cha).

Third; would this not work better with an elf using COT instead of fighter? Elf can dualwield shortswords with same penalty as halfling+daggers, and there would be no xp penalty (I know halfling would have none anyway as rogue is favoured, just thinking out loud on elf options) It would be taken later; sure, but you could still fit the same feats (I think?) and get the same benefits as you would for fighter wouldn't you?
You lose weapon specialisation. The worst thing about dex builds are low damage. Epic Weapon Specialisation is like having +3 AB and equivalent of +12 STR for damage before taking into account items.

COT would do 1d4 with daggers.
Fighter does 1d4+6 with daggers.

Take your pick.

Syrath
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It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!! That's clear enough for me .
My point on knockdown was; if you're waiting for 20's to knockdown then you're going to miss a lot.. even if you get 20 once every 6 or 7 rounds; that's 5 or 6 rounds you've reduced your chances to hit. Instead; you could go into Improved expertise and with epic dodge + sc5, even if your opponent gets two 20's in a round, you will take no damage on one; and get 50% chance of the other missing.

Just trying to get my head around knockdown with a low-ab build
Quote: Posted 05/13/05 11:21:14 (GMT) -- Khandahr

That's clear enough for me .
My point on knockdown was; if you're waiting for 20's to knockdown then you're going to miss a lot.. even if you get 20 once every 6 or 7 rounds; that's 5 or 6 rounds you've reduced your chances to hit. Instead; you could go into Improved expertise and with epic dodge + sc5, even if your opponent gets two 20's in a round, you will take no damage on one; and get 50% chance of the other missing.

Just trying to get my head around knockdown with a low-ab build

8 fighter /12 rogue only has a -3 AB when compared with a pure level 20 fighter. This isnt that much,especially pvm. So how does it qualify as being a low AB build.

Syrath
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It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!! I might be kinda off on this one so appologies if I am. I do like the build.. don't get me wrong, I think it's pretty cool to get in epc dgde; sc5 and reasonable ab to add to that.

But, given that a str-based fighter - or str-based melee I should say (the kind of enemy you need to knockdown to kill or get killed quick) would have easily 65 naked discipline, if I calc it right.
[43 ranks + 10 (epic focus) + 12 (str bonus at 34str) = 65]
Your best attack roll (excluding natural 20) for that kind of naked discipline is around 6 short of that (granted improved kd gives +4 due to size improvement, that is factored into the roll). That's just a fighter with decent discipline; not mentioning the high ac builds which seem common on PvP servers.
However; take into account a high-bab melee now that can easily get 60/55/50/45; and expertise becomes a need.

Edited By Khandahr on 05/13/05 13:05

Quote: Posted 05/13/05 13:03:39 (GMT) -- Khandahr

I might be kinda off on this one so appologies if I am. I do like the build.. don't get me wrong, I think it's pretty cool to get in epc dgde; sc5 and reasonable ab to add to that.

But, given that a str-based fighter - or str-based melee I should say (the kind of enemy you need to knockdown to kill or get killed quick) would have easily 65 naked discipline, if I calc it right.
[43 ranks + 10 (epic focus) + 12 (str bonus at 34str) = 65]
Your best attack roll (excluding natural 20) for that kind of naked discipline is around 6 short of that (granted improved kd gives +4 due to size improvement, that is factored into the roll). That's just a fighter with decent discipline; not mentioning the high ac builds which seem common on PvP servers.
However; take into account a high-bab melee now that can easily get 60/55/50/45; and expertise becomes a need.

PvM or PvE you are usually not hitting something with that amount of discipline. In fact its only really fighter type classes on PVP worlds that have that amount of discipline. Thats actually quite a small percentage of players in the grand scale of things.

Just curious can you list the classes,feats and STR needed to get 60 AB without magic items. If it is with magic items, what level of magic.

Syrath
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It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!! Thanks for the responses.

First, raising UMD. There are enough to skill points to do whatever you want really. This is just a template. I would not suggest taking Epic Skill Focus in UMD. 25-30 is plenty. Further, you would have to lose a feat in Epic, and there's not one i would remove.

Syrath covered pretty much the rest. Thanks. Steve mentioned the Kukris. If you look at the original on the General Forum, you'll see that was indeed my intention. Kukris baby, which can still be done in the build.

I still sthink Impr Exp is a good way to go. Drop the TWF feats, focus on shortsword. This would reduce you to 4 instead of 6 attacks, but your AB would go up to 42/37/32/37, and you could effectively make your Naked AC go uo to 41, and still have a plain shortsword with 32AB. With a few well-placed items, not even high magic items, you could rocks some boats.
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Homer: Lisa, would you like a donut?
Lisa: No thanks. Do you have any fruit?
Homer: This has purple in it. Purple is a fruit. Here is one from the PW I play on. It uses a +15 mace; so remove +15 from it automatically. This character is active on one of the PW's I play frequently.
Click Here
Another one; that is from a post by Mithradates:
Quote:  from a previous post on the general forum
str based.
Half-orc Fighter 12/Weapon Master 28
30 BAB
+13 36 str (19 base +10 attribute bonuses +7 feats)
+1 weapon focus
+2 epic weapon focus
+1 epic prowess
+1 superior weapon focus
+6 epic superior weapon focus
54 total
+12 str pushes to 60; mundane focus weapon. Note that this could be pushed by an extra 1 by starting at str or 20. If you look at the image attached; this can be improved to 42 using rdd; so add to that another +3; for a total of 64, ising unenhanced equipment.

Agreed these are highly extreme examples. But; if these are possible, it is highly likely to acheive over 60ab with a well stocked character.

My (badly illustrated I'll agree) point, was that survival is the key to the build; imo. I'll agree firsthand that I might be wrong on it though.

Edited By Khandahr on 05/13/05 15:30

Quote: Posted 05/13/05 15:21:24 (GMT) -- Khandahr

Here is one from the PW I play on. It uses a +15 mace; so remove +15 from it automatically. This character is active on one of the PW's I play frequently.
Click Here
Another one; that is from a post by Mithradates:
Quote:  from a previous post on the general forum
str based.
Half-orc Fighter 12/Weapon Master 28
30 BAB
+13 36 str (19 base +10 attribute bonuses +7 feats)
+1 weapon focus
+2 epic weapon focus
+1 epic prowess
+1 superior weapon focus
+6 epic superior weapon focus
54 total
+12 str pushes to 60; mundane focus weapon. Note that this could be pushed by an extra 1 by starting at str or 20. If you look at the image attached; this can be improved to 42 using rdd; so add to that another +3; for a total of 64, ising unenhanced equipment.

Agreed these are highly extreme examples. But; if these are possible, it is highly likely to acheive over 60ab with a well stocked character.

My (badly illustrated I'll agree) point, was that survival is the key to the build; imo. I'll agree firsthand that I might be wrong on it though.

What is Superior Epic Weapon Focus, and why is it +6? Yeah, this guy would suck. Naked64AB vs Naked40AC not going to cut it. But, this guy isn't supposed to take melee types on face-to-face. That's just foolish.
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"Me fail English? That's unpossible." ---Ralph Wiggum Superior Epic Focus is a wpn mstr-only feat.

And no; the build would not suck against it actually. Equipping cleverly, you can push this build over 80ac dualwieding without imp-expert - that's with mostly class-fixed items. Scrolls are also a key; and to cast with no chance of failure you need about 34 ranks of umd.
With a mundane large shield; plus imp expert your ac is around 85 easily; which could very well survive against an ab of 70 (since epic dodge takes the first hit out of the equation; and 50% conceal helps a ton too). I'll add this; that the examples I gave are probably the extreme; and just an example of what could be thrown at this kind of build with the ac behind it.

Was kinda why I mentioned possibly adding an epic focus umd; as mostly the best dodge-based ac items are around 50+ umd; and usually classes like fighter or monk only due to bonus applied. Again, mileage might vary; I've based a lot of this on the pw I play on - which can get a little insane with builds at times, but is still not by any means at the high magic item stage.

Edited By Khandahr on 05/13/05 16:24

Quote: Posted 05/13/05 16:06:53 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord

Quote: Posted 05/13/05 15:21:24 (GMT) -- Khandahr

Here is one from the PW I play on. It uses a +15 mace; so remove +15 from it automatically. This character is active on one of the PW's I play frequently.
Click Here
Another one; that is from a post by Mithradates:
Quote:  from a previous post on the general forum
str based.
Half-orc Fighter 12/Weapon Master 28
30 BAB
+13 36 str (19 base +10 attribute bonuses +7 feats)
+1 weapon focus
+2 epic weapon focus
+1 epic prowess
+1 superior weapon focus
+6 epic superior weapon focus
54 total
+12 str pushes to 60; mundane focus weapon. Note that this could be pushed by an extra 1 by starting at str or 20. If you look at the image attached; this can be improved to 42 using rdd; so add to that another +3; for a total of 64, ising unenhanced equipment.

Agreed these are highly extreme examples. But; if these are possible, it is highly likely to acheive over 60ab with a well stocked character.

My (badly illustrated I'll agree) point, was that survival is the key to the build; imo. I'll agree firsthand that I might be wrong on it though.

What is Superior Epic Weapon Focus, and why is it +6? Yeah, this guy would suck. Naked64AB vs Naked40AC not going to cut it. But, this guy isn't supposed to take melee types on face-to-face. That's just foolish.

Khandar is quoting +12 STR from items to get +60 AB so its only 54 AB against naked 40 AC. I would never recommend a pvp dex build in a low magic environment. Take it up to +7 items and the strength build ends up missing so many attacks it unreal.

Syrath
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It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!! Yep. Thats just using an old post example of a straight attacker; the image I've given the link to has a build which gets insane ab. Take away the weapon enhancement and the +12 str and its still over 80ab...

But aye; we're wondering into equipment territory here. My bad. Not my intention indeed; and certainly I'm awful at the explaining bit. Where I was trying to head is; a boost of +10 ac at the cost of 10ab or +5ac at the cost of 5ab just means a quick way of boosting your ac... without the hassles.

FYI: the world I took this from has very few rare items above +7. Actually; only two or three that I know of and I've seen most of them. Most weapons are +6 or less; and the midrange to high range are all nondrop and extremely rare. Items rarely have more than +5 stat increase (and then are very restricted and need high umd to cross-class) Yeah in that world every bit of AC can be made to count. Its a reasonable balance (STR vs DEX wise IMO)

Syrath
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It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!