Here's a build of mine I put together a few months back but never posted.
In a recent build thread (Mith's Irksome Wonder V. 2 (Bard 16/Fighter 14/RDD 10) Click Here a reader mentioned that build led him to consider using CoT in place of Fighter, so I thought I'd toss this out for inspiration/disembowelment
Note that Herbie Shimmer has a similar build here with different level distributions: The Avatar of Torm's Righteous Strength (Bard 16 / CoT 14 / RDD 10) Click Here
Classes: Bard 20/RDD 10/CoT 10 Race: Human Alignment: Neutral Good
Stats (start) (finish) Str 16 32 Dex 10 Con 14 16 Int 14 16 Wis 8 Cha 14 16
AC 24 HP 427 BA 27 AB: 50/45/40/35 Fort Save 30 Reflex Save 28 Will Save 26 Skills: Max: Perform, Tumble, UMD, Discipline, Taunt, Spellcraft, Lore (20) + 35 points left over
PS - Sorry for the clumsy build name - I was on a conference call when I posted this! _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Edited By griphook on 06/02/05 14:30
I'm bad with Math, but how does he get 50AB? _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Not sure myself. I don't do AB calculations, I just read 'em from the Character Sheet then type them into my spreadsheet.
I'd trust your calculations over my fat-fingered typing. I'll have to launch NWN and see if I still have this guy in my local vault.
Aside from mathematical issues, how's the build look?
Kaliban
Edit: Okay, I found the build. Wielding a mundane scimitar, her AB is 42/37/32/27. Sorry for the mistype. _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Edited By Kaliban99 on 05/26/05 19:16
Hrm, well it's definitely good, but I still think I prefer the fighter version.
What you gain: +5 to saves Divine Wrath (for 2 before RDD 10, 3 rounds afterwards) 1 Smite Evil (so +10 damage on one hit a day) Bard song increase - +8HP, +4 to skills (not huge, and you need some perform enhancement to get the full benefit)
What you lose: Weapon Specialization/Epic Weapon Specilization 4 feats (Fighter Bonus feats at levels 1, 12, and 14, plus the wasted Weapon Proficiency Martial
So you have to decide which list is more important to you basically. I think for me, I prefer the things you lose to the things you gain, but that's just a personal preference.
Steve
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 05/26/05 19:29
Nice build, but I'm going to take you to the Learning Tree:
First: Ending with a 16 Int is superfluous. You already are overflowing with skill points, and your human. I would start it at 12, and when you gain your RDD +2, then find the opportunity to take IKD (as this is the only thing you have which reguires a 13+Int). I would take those two ability points and a)put them into Dex for +1 AC, or B) put them into Wis and give yourself a +1 to Wills(he gets -1, but making Wis 10 is like a bonus). You will still get enough skill points to max Perform, UMD, Tumble, Discipline, Spellcraft and few in other utility ones.
Second: I'm not sure what the CoT is really doing for the build, other than saves. You waste two of its feats that you would otherwise get with a fighter. Taking fighter would further get you another feat, so you are bleeding 3 feats. With 3 feats you could have picked up Will, Lightning Reflexes and one other save feat (luck of Heroes), and been almost par with a 10CoT, PLUS you would have WS/EWS. In this situation, the fighter makes more sense.
Third: I like that you maxed Taunt, but why not take the Epic Skill Focus to make it truly effective?
Fourth: Bardsong, at 20th level you need a 50 Perform(the manual is wrong). You have a 46. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't enjoy wearing items that raise my Perform. I'd rather have something else on, savvy? I would consider, at the least, getting a skill focus:perform for a +3. That way, you only need a + Chr boosting item to hit 50. The alternative is to take Epic Skill Focus for a +10.
Fifth: I would advise to drop either Lingering, or Lasting Inspiration. To have both is a bit redundant. It can be argued that Lingering is good for pre-epic, and lasting is good for Epic. But just Lingering gives you 20rounds. That's more than enough. With extra music, you shouldn't have any problem.
There was a 6th and a 7th, but I lost my train of thought. It had to do with Epic Feats...Epic Toughness perhaps...I'll have to go back and look.
Finally, making all the above changes would, of course, make him look identical to other builds, but that's bound to happen in a closed system. It's still an effective build. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Steve and Grizzled...thanks for the feedback.
I was trying to recall why I wanted CoT instead of Fighter in this build...the only thing I could think of was that I was trying to capitalize on the Charisma stat. I don't think I ever created this build in a PW - it sits in my local vault, a neglected 'Project build' along with sooooooo many others! (Anyone for a Harper Druid?)
Anyhow, great insights and good lessons to learn. Thanks for taking the time to critique.
Kaliban.
Now where was I on my Half-Elf Cleric/Harper/Barb..... _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Edited By Kaliban99 on 05/26/05 21:03
about the same thing
If you are leveling up the old fashioned way, I would definately do both lasting inspiration and lingering song. The Lasting Inspriration won't help until lvl 39. It is worth it, though. One of my favorite feats. I did skip extra music, though. I prefer my songs to last a long time rather than having a bunch.
I prefer CoT to fighter for this build for most of the reasons listed above. Personally, I believe that bard/rdd/CoT in this proportion is the toughest of the rdd melee builds. _________________ Click Here
I prefer CoT to fighter for this build for most of the reasons listed above. Personally, I believe that bard/rdd/CoT in this proportion is the toughest of the rdd melee builds.
Really? Looks like I'm going to have to take you to the learning tree. too. _________________ "Well, he's kind of had it in for me ever since I accidentally ran over his dog. Actually, replace 'accidentally' with 'repeatedly,' and replace 'dog' with 'son.'" ----Lionel Hutz
A lot does depend on the world you play in. On the World I play, the CoT is better, but it is a medium/high magic world (+10 enhancement and ability item limits, but they are easily found. Because of this, AB increases become much more important than extra damage (we actually have no damage reduction items for characters) and a 10th lvl Divine Wrath is quite nice in conjunction with Bard Song, Curse Song, War Cry, and taunt.
The main thing with a bard song, anyway, is to get it to the 16th lvl song. The 20th lvl song is important for duration and to qualify for Lasting Inspiration. The extra hitpoints and skill bonuses are just that, bonuses. The AC and Saves at 16th are the meat of the songs. If you are in PVP with another bard, and you get your curse off first, his curse often does not affect you. Since AC rules where I play, that is a huge advantage in the long fights (the mod is prmarily PvM, but there is some PvP on occassion) because, if for no other reason, it reduces the AoO that singing sometimes invites. _________________ Click Here
Edited By Yar Stardawg on 05/29/05 15:56
Griz, were you going to skool em on melee supremacy by talking bout my fiter/wm/cleric* build? if not, i digress but eagerly await.
*disclaimer* i cant say it was great but on a non dev crit world, harm provided mucho fun.
Well I'm a little behind on the discussion here but I'm gonna add my two cents for what it's worth!
I am definately in favour of the CoT rather than Fighter as part of the build...in fact watch out for my own little version of the Bard, RDD, CoT build...with a very different twist.
In the world I play in damaging your opponents is much less of an issue than staying alive yourself so Weapon Specialiation & Epic variety come in much less of a concern...keep your eyes out for my build if u like the Bard/RDD/CoT...does it have a name? _________________ Grrr...hear my roar!!!
Quote: Stats (start) (finish) Str 16 32 Dex 10 Con 14 16 Int 14 16 Wis 8 Cha 14 16
If you put all 10 attribuite points into Str, you arrive at 26 w/o the RDD. 26 + 8 Str from RDD is 34, isn't it? Or did they change the RDD Str Boost?
Just curious...
-C _________________ Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
You are right, its 16+10+8=34, because the start stats sum up nice and right. But what i wonder then is how can the sheet show 42 with mundane weapon, it should show 43... Look it up, eh?
You are right, its 16+10+8=34, because the start stats sum up nice and right. But what i wonder then is how can the sheet show 42 with mundane weapon, it should show 43... Look it up, eh?
Okay, I just rebuilt this one following my earlier build strictly to confirm ending AB (today I would change some feats if I were reposting entire build). Ending strength is indeed 34, and AB is 42/37/32/27. So...
Kaliban _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Instead of taking weapon prof martial you could take weapon focus in mace or something like that and then take weapon focus scimitar on a CoT level. That way you save one feat.
Quote: Posted 09/18/05 15:47:33 (GMT) -- Bruce Lee 72
Instead of taking weapon prof martial you could take weapon focus in mace or something like that and then take weapon focus scimitar on a CoT level. That way you save one feat.
Martial Weapons + Weapon Focus:Mace + Weapon Focus:Scimitar = 3 feats Doing it the way I suggested you get them for the price of 2, hence the word save one.
.... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... griphook .. Removed Part of Quote ..(not necessary)
Edited By griphook on 09/18/05 23:48
Quote: Posted 09/18/05 16:48:25 (GMT) -- Bruce Lee 72
Martial Weapons + Weapon Focus:Mace + Weapon Focus:Scimitar = 3 feats Doing it the way I suggested you get them for the price of 2, hence the word save one.
Why would you take the Martial Proficiency feat in that case? Mace is a simple weapon, so you don't need the Martial feat for it, therefore you could take Wpn Focus:Mace to qualify for CoT, then Wpn Focus:Scimitar to get the focus in the weapon you want after you get your CoT level (CoT gives you Martial Proficiency free).
Perhaps a better idea would be to take Weapon Focus: Spear, then take WF: Scimitar in CoT levels. This route -- WF: Spear as a Bard -- qualifies for CoT while providing skill with a two-handed weapon (which is very nice because of the high Strength).
N'est-ce pas?
Kaliban _________________ This space for rent
Quote: Posted 09/18/05 17:53:57 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Why would you take the Martial Proficiency feat in that case? Mace is a simple weapon, so you don't need the Martial feat for it, therefore you could take Wpn Focus:Mace to qualify for CoT, then Wpn Focus:Scimitar to get the focus in the weapon you want after you get your CoT level (CoT gives you Martial Proficiency free).
.... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... griphook .. Removed Part of Quote ..(not necessary)
Edited By griphook on 09/18/05 23:56
Quote: Posted 09/18/05 20:20:13 (GMT) -- Bruce Lee 72
I think that is exactly what I suggested.
Yes, but you don't save a feat. You either use that feat for Martial Weapons or you use it for Weapon Focus:Mace. In either case, you need to take Weapon Focus:Scimitar as a second feat. You don't end up saving a feat by going either way.
Perhaps a better idea would be to take Weapon Focus: Spear, then take WF: Scimitar in CoT levels. This route -- WF: Spear as a Bard -- qualifies for CoT while providing skill with a two-handed weapon (which is very nice because of the high Strength).
N'est-ce pas?
Kaliban
Indeed, Kal, that's another option. However, I'd go with the way you have it. You probably won't use the spear once you have your Scimmy focus anyway, and taking Martial at level 1 allows you to use a wide variety of weapons right from the start, This would allow the character to use any good weapon he finds (barring Exotics, of course). _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Just trying to keep the peace!
(I would've quoted you Cinn, but the Quote Police are out in force tonight!)
Griphook, thanks for all you do! _________________ This space for rent
Griphook, you stole my quotes! Now there's a big hole in my collection! You owe me a beer... _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Kaliban99 Just trying to keep the peace!
(I would've quoted you Cinn, but the Quote Police are out in force tonight!)
Quote: Griphook, thanks for all you do!
No thanks necessary...I enjoy it
Quote: Cinnabar Din Griphook, you stole my quotes! Now there's a big hole in my collection! You owe me a beer...
Well, you must admit the posts were starting to get rather long..
"Cin" quoting "Bruce" quoting "Cin" quoting "Bruce" quoting Cin etc.
"OH NO"... you,ve got me quoting now!!
.... .... .... .... .... .... .... ..... ....
Edited..Sorry all,.. what i meant was..Quoting the Whole post when .it's not necessary, You only really need to quote a statement/sentence from the post. It is fine to quote ................Honestly...Quote Police
