This is a variant to the Avenging Commando. I cannot decide which I like better, although this one avoids the experience penalty and has significantly better saves, only marginally worse attack bonus.
Avenging Champion Commando
Overview
Paladin: 15 Champion of Torm: 8 Rogue: 17
Race: Any but Half-Orc or Dwarf Alignment: Lawful Good
Final Skills Disable Trap: 20+ Open Lock: 20+ Search: 20+ Spot: 20+ Listen: 20+ Craft Trap: 20+ Discipline: 20+ Hide: 20+ Move Silently: 20+ Set Trap: 20+ Spellcraft: 20+ Tumble: 40+ Use Magic Devices: 43
You can scrap spellcraft and take taunt to 40. Or be human and take taunt to 40. It is a versatile build on the skill side. Not much versatility on the feat side,though.
If you go human, you can add 40 skill points and one feat. I go elf. I like greatswords but you can use any weapon, preferably with a high critical threat range. Scimitar or longsword with a shield would add nice ac. Not enough feats to go for two-weapon fighting.
Equipment Full Plate Greatsword Trap Kits
AVENGING CHAMPION COMMANDO ADVANTAGES
• High Use Magic Device. Like MacGuyver or any good marine, the Avenging Commando can improvise, adapt, and overcome. This gives huge versatility to the character, particularly if uses his rogue abilities to scout out a situation. • Devastating Critical. As a warrior against the forces of evil, the Avenging Commando has become a master swordsman, capable of killing an opponent with one blow. • Can use the best armor in the game without concern for spell failure (only casts from items and scrolls) or class/alignment restriction (use magic device). • 10D6 Sneak Attack. Evil must fall, and swiftly. Augments his already potent critical attack with sneak attacks for distracted or unsuspecting opponents. • Level 4 Paladin Spells. Including Holy Avenger, Greater Magic Weapon, Bull Strength, Prayer, Protection from Evil. • Can set and craft traps. • Better saves. Divine Grace adds the charisma bonus to all saves. +4 for 8 CoT levels. +4 to saves against spells due to spellcraft. • Improved Evasion. The Avenging Commando will either take half damage or no damage against damage spells. • Immune to fear and disease. • Smite evil six times a day (paladin, CoT, Extra Smiting) • Cure disease. • Lay on hands x2. • Turn and destroy undead. • Divine Wrath -- add +3 to attack, damage, and AC for four rounds. • Decent AB for a character with rogue abilities: BAB OF 28, 36 after strength bonus applied, with four attacks per round. Using greatsword, this jumps to 39.
AVENGING CHAMPION COMMANDO DISADVANTAGES
• Low Hitpoints. Very low for a melee character. Need boots of striding.
• An item with haste or scrolls of haste. • A powerful greatsword, preferably keen. With greater magic weapon and holy avenger, he can turn a normal greatsword into a powerful weapon, but some extra power is always useful. • HP boosting items. To address his low HP.
Key Stats
Final Saves (Vs. Spells) • Fortitude 30 (35) • Reflexes 30 (34) • Will 26 (30) AB and Damage • With no buffs, regular greatsword: 39/34/29/24 18+2D6 (+10D6 Sneak Attack) (17-20 x2) Devastating Critical DC 38 • Holy Avenger, Greater Magic Weapon, Bull's Strength. Normal Greatsword) 62/57/52/47 26+2D6 (+5 Magic) (+10D6 Sneak Attack) (17-20 x2) Devastating Critical DC 40 AC • 26 (Normal full plate, no buffs) • 41 (Full Plate, Haste (rogue UMD))
Character Advancement History
Following is the path of the Avenging Champion Commando during the first forty levels of his life. Apportion the skills to taste but take tumble to 40 and UMD to max and crossclass spellcraft to 20 (unless want taunt instead)
1 Rogue1 Feat: Power Attack 2 Paladin1 3 Paladin2 Feat: Cleave 4 Rogue2 Ability: Strength 5 Rogue3 6 Paladin3 Feat: Weapon Focus (Greatsword) 7 Paladin4 8 Rogue4 Ability: Strength 9 Paladin5 Feat: Extra Smiting 10 CoT1 11 CoT2 Feat: Great Cleave 12 CoT3 Feat: Improved Critical (Greatsword); Ability: Strength 13 Rogue5 14 Paladin6 15 Rogue6 Feat: Blind Fight 16 Rogue7 Ability: Strength 17 Paladin7 18 Paladin8 Feat: Toughness 19 Rogue8 20 Paladin9 Ability: Strength 21 CoT4 Feat: Great Strength I, Epic Weapon Focus (Greatsword) 22 Cot5 23 Rogue9 24 Rogue10 Feat: Great Strength II; Rogue Feat: Improved Evasion; Ability: Strength 25 Paladin10 26 CoT6 Feat: Epic Prowess 27 CoT7 Feat: Great Strength III 28 CoT8 Feat: Overwhelming Critical; Ability: Charisma 29 Rogue11 30 Paladin11 Feat: Great Strength IV 31 Rogue12 32 Paladin12 Ability: Charisma 33 Rogue13 Feat: Epic Prowess; Rogue Feat: Epic Skill: Tumble 34 Paladin13 35 Rogue14 36 Paladin14 Feat: Devastating Critical (Greatsword); Ability: Charisma 37 Rogue15 38 Paladin15 39 Rogue16 Feat: Great Strength V; Rogue Feat: Improved Sneak Attack 40 Rogue17 Ability: Charisma _________________ We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender - Winston Churchill
And thanks. _________________ We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender - Winston Churchill
Edited By griphook on 05/27/05 16:56
Hi Edited to the correct version for you griphook
thanks to the distinguished Member from Wales. _________________ We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender - Winston Churchill
Quote: Devastating Critical DC 38
Just out of interest ... how is this calculated? I thought it was (Character Level / 2) + Str modifier, but I may well be wrong.
bab/2 + strength, I think. the grimoire probably has this answer. _________________ We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender - Winston Churchill
According to the Grimoire, it is character level/2 + STR, not BAB/2.
According to the Grimoire, it is character level/2 + STR, not BAB/2.
Steve
Then the DC for the Devastating Critical is 28, not 38.
Thanks for catching that. _________________ We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender - Winston Churchill
According to the Grimoire, it is character level/2 + STR, not BAB/2.
Steve
Then the DC for the Devastating Critical is 28, not 38.
Thanks for catching that.
I just went and played the character and the DC is 38. I do not know how the heck you get there, though. But the Ogre exploded after failing his save and the DC listed 38. So . . . there? Don't know.
According to the Grimoire, it is character level/2 + STR, not BAB/2.
Steve
Then the DC for the Devastating Critical is 28, not 38.
Thanks for catching that.
I just went and played the character and the DC is 38. I do not know how the heck you get there, though. But the Ogre exploded after failing his save and the DC listed 38. So . . . there? Don't know.
My guess is that the DC is actually 10 + char level/2 + STR. Most feats/attacks of that nature (stunning fist, quivering palm, etc.) use a DC of 10 + level (or level/2) + relevant stat. Even spell DCs are 10 + spell level + casting stat.
According to the Grimoire, it is character level/2 + STR, not BAB/2.
Steve
Then the DC for the Devastating Critical is 28, not 38.
Thanks for catching that.
I just went and played the character and the DC is 38. I do not know how the heck you get there, though. But the Ogre exploded after failing his save and the DC listed 38. So . . . there? Don't know.
My guess is that the DC is actually 10 + char level/2 + STR. Most feats/attacks of that nature (stunning fist, quivering palm, etc.) use a DC of 10 + level (or level/2) + relevant stat. Even spell DCs are 10 + spell level + casting stat.
Steve
I confirm your quess because it is just that way it is calculated
three more things about this build that I like:
1. you have 14 intelligence and 14 wisdom, meaning you have both intelligence and insight in your conversation choices. PvM concern, I suppose, but even in the abstract I like being wise and smart.
2. it is playable from 1 to 40, really and truly. No waiting for the build to materialize.
3. a lot of flexibility is built into the build. You can play it elf as noted and still adjust feats and skills. Humans get an extra feat and 40 extra skill points. So anyone else's commando won't look exactly like everyone else's but will still kick @$$. _________________ We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender - Winston Churchill
Steve(/quote)
I confirm your quess because it is just that way it is calculated(/quote)
I am not sure that counts as analysis BUT it is right, or at least it fits the scientific method's version of determining what is right. And thanks for running it down. _________________ We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender - Winston Churchill
According to the Grimoire, it is character level/2 + STR, not BAB/2.
Steve
Then the DC for the Devastating Critical is 28, not 38.
Thanks for catching that.
I just went and played the character and the DC is 38. I do not know how the heck you get there, though. But the Ogre exploded after failing his save and the DC listed 38. So . . . there? Don't know.
My guess is that the DC is actually 10 + char level/2 + STR. Most feats/attacks of that nature (stunning fist, quivering palm, etc.) use a DC of 10 + level (or level/2) + relevant stat. Even spell DCs are 10 + spell level + casting stat.
Steve
I'd have to agree with that, i made a lvl 30wizard/10fighter with 26 str and devastating critical and that had a DC of 38 on devastating criticals so it's got to be 10 + char level/2 + STR. By the way i think that congradulations are in order for this great build.
Thank you. I am playing it from level 1 now on a new PW and it is fun. _________________ We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender - Winston Churchill
Looks very nice indeed, I think I will play a version with a little more charisma though since my PW dosen't support dev crit.
One note on smite evil. For whatever reason, you get one smite evil even if you are a paladin AND a champion of Torm. So extra smiting gets you three, not six, smites. Does not seem right or just, but I have confirmed it in gameplay. Still probably worth taking the extra smiting feat but it makes knockdown look like a pretty good option,too. _________________ We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender - Winston Churchill
Its amazin that all this discussion on a build that isnt correct. Yes, the build is cool, BUT as it is listed above it is impossible. I just did it as written and you need to replace the 2nd epic prowess with gr str to get to take dev crit properly.
Otherwise i love the idea and the end result (with the correction).
Peace
Quote: Posted 06/03/05 05:11:00 (GMT) -- avado Its amazin that all this discussion on a build that isnt correct.
I don't think it's that amazing that people didn't notice the double feat/missing Great Str since most of the comments are on the general concept of the build or the DC of Dev Crit. I don't generally bother carefully looking over all the feats unless it's something that looks complicated to actually build...
Anyway, one thing I did just notice as I was looking at that problem...on the same level as the second epic prowess, you take Epic Skill Focus: Tumble as a rogue bonus feat. I'm not sure I see any reason for that. It doesn't give you any extra AC, and the DC for tumble checks is a flat 15, so you already have way more tumble than you would ever need to never fail a tumble check (unless it's auto-fail on a 1, in which case the Skill Focus still wouldn't help you). I think Crippling Strike would be more worthwhile choice.
Steve
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 06/03/05 07:35
Thanks for the input. Yup, you need Great Strength VI and you don't need (and cannot have) epic prowess twice. I like epic skill focus, but (Steve) you are right on that, too.
I have this build at level 40 on one PW (Godspire) and at level 10 in another (Badlands). It is fun from level one. _________________ We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender - Winston Churchill
All right, the repaired build:
You can sub Improved Sneak Attack and Crippling Attack with Epic Skill Focus Spot or Listen (or thieving skills like open lock/disable lock if your needs require). _________________ We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender - Winston Churchill
All right, I have taken this to Level 13 on Badlands PW.
It strikes me that you probably want to add knockdown to the build. But where: Extra Smiting, Great Cleave, or Blind Fight?
Extra Smiting is the easiest to cut, particularly since you only get three despite having CoT and Paladin smithing.
Then what about Improved Knockdown? Yup, and how? At Great Cleave.
Why Knockdown? To increase the opportunities for sneak attacks. This build gives lots of bonus damage, both from crits (15-20 with a keen weapon) and sneak attacks.
Gotta keep blind fight as long as you are in a PvP environment, near as I can tell.
So there. It's a massively fun PC to play so far and I have just got my first paladin buff (prot from evil). aaah. _________________ We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender - Winston Churchill
Quote: Posted 06/14/05 21:50:09 (GMT) -- Ithacan Then what about Improved Knockdown? Yup, and how? At Great Cleave.
Isn't Great Cleave still a prerequistite for Devastating Criticals?
If you really want KD and IKD, drop Extra Smiting and Toughness. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 06/14/05 22:35:25 (GMT) -- Xyraxian
Quote: Posted 06/14/05 21:50:09 (GMT) -- Ithacan Then what about Improved Knockdown? Yup, and how? At Great Cleave.
Isn't Great Cleave still a prerequistite for Devastating Criticals?
grumble, yes, dangit. ok. so cinnabar dun has it. that hurts a melee build that is already low on hp. i suppose maxing out listen and spot could compensate for the loss of blind fight? 40 hp is hard to let go of.
Quote: Posted 06/14/05 22:56:06 (GMT) -- Ithacan
Quote: Posted 06/14/05 22:35:25 (GMT) -- Xyraxian
Quote: Posted 06/14/05 21:50:09 (GMT) -- Ithacan Then what about Improved Knockdown? Yup, and how? At Great Cleave.
Isn't Great Cleave still a prerequistite for Devastating Criticals?
grumble, yes, dangit. ok. so cinnabar dun has it. that hurts a melee build that is already low on hp. i suppose maxing out listen and spot could compensate for the loss of blind fight? 40 hp is hard to let go of.
In reality, 40 HPS isn't all that much though. In epic levels that represents one, perhaps 2 hits. If the 40 HPs is going to make that much of a difference in battle, then you've got bigger problems. You should have access to Endurance potions by that time anyway, so just slurp one of them back and you have 40 or 80 extra HPs right there. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Of course, this also means that I have to restart this PC on the PW because I already took toughness! lol, oh well.
thanks to the distinguished Member from Wales.
Thank you. I am playing it from level 1 now on a new PW and it is fun.