I looked through the list of builds to see if an Epic Dodge Monk/Ranger was out there, but didn't see one that quite fit what I was thinking of. (I'm having issues with the new version of MSN Toolbar so I may have missed such a build if one is listed.) Anyhow, here's what I threw together today. My goal was a build that included these attributes:
Dexterity-based scrapper
Dual wielding of Kamas
Bane of Enemies
Epic Dodge
I'm new here so always open to useful feedback. (But if I have to go back to that dang learning tree so soon after my last visit I'm going to go Bane of Enemies on someone's grizzled be-hind!)
So without further ado, allow me to introduce...
Kama Fury Ranger 23/Monk 7/SD 10 Race: Human Alignment: Lawful
Stats (start/finish) Str 12 Dex 16/28 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 8
AC 32 HP 388 BA 27 AB: 38/35/32/29/26/23 & 38/35 Saves: Fort 25/Reflex 31/Will 21 Skills: Max: Tumble, Disc, Hide & MS, Spellcraft: 20, Heal: 10, Dis. Trap: 20, Open Lock: 20 _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Edited By griphook on 06/02/05 14:55
Welcome to school, class will now commence. (also known as a rant about rangers)
I'm nto sure how many people understand the true reason to take a ranger over a fighter. The true reason is to grab as many FEs as possible.
you have 6. a fighter with EWspecialization also does +6 damage with a chocen weapon, but he gets it across the board.
if he wanted to have two chocen weapons, it would cost him another 6 levels. (lvl 2 Weapon focus, lvl 4 WSpec. lvl 6 EWspec) and there you go, another +6 to the damage of another weapon.
by limiting the number of FEs you ranger has, you limit his usefulness. He becomes almost like a fighter, except wihout all the feats.
Sorry if i seem mean spirited, im not trying to be, but i find it strange when people take very few lvls of ranger. you either take 9 or you take as many as possible.
35 lvls really is a sweet spot for rangers, they get 2 FEs on this lvl, and they basically cover half of all the racial groups.
Quote: Posted 05/30/05 02:39:51 (GMT) -- aluka
Welcome to school, class will now commence. (also known as a rant about rangers)
I'm nto sure how many people understand the true reason to take a ranger over a fighter. The true reason is to grab as many FEs as possible.
you have 6. a fighter with EWspecialization also does +6 damage with a chocen weapon, but he gets it across the board.
if he wanted to have two chocen weapons, it would cost him another 6 levels. (lvl 2 Weapon focus, lvl 4 WSpec. lvl 6 EWspec) and there you go, another +6 to the damage of another weapon.
by limiting the number of FEs you ranger has, you limit his usefulness. He becomes almost like a fighter, except wihout all the feats.
Sorry if i seem mean spirited, im not trying to be, but i find it strange when people take very few lvls of ranger. you either take 9 or you take as many as possible.
35 lvls really is a sweet spot for rangers, they get 2 FEs on this lvl, and they basically cover half of all the racial groups.
You don't seem mean-spirited, but I honestly see little value in your reply....
Do you have a point other than '23 levels of ranger is stupid'? Do you have any specific suggestions to improve on my build towards the goals I stated?
Really - I could write a reply that says "40 levels of sorc would make a more powerful character." That's about as useful as your feedback. I think you may be saying I should scrap this build and make a Ranger 35/Fighter 5 so I can have a dozen Favored Enemies plus Epic Weapon Specialization...? But I'm not really sure what your reply is all about.
So, let's try Take Two! In which specific, useful feedback is welcome.
Kaliban
PS - Rants about classes should probably remain in the General Discussion forum. _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Edited By Kaliban99 on 05/30/05 03:42
It's always better to make criticisms based on something related to the original concept. A level 35 Ranger would be probably be *very* different to what the original poster was trying to do.
Is it possible to rework this as a Ranger 21/Monk 6/SD 13? It would be slightly less playable (no IKD and KD until late on) from 1-40. I don't have the opportunity right now to take a proper look at the build, but you should be able to get most of the same feats, and there's no 'wasted' Monk level 7. _________________ If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips. -Birgitte
It's always better to make criticisms based on something related to the original concept. A level 35 Ranger would be probably be *very* different to what the original poster was trying to do.
Is it possible to rework this as a Ranger 21/Monk 6/SD 13? It would be slightly less playable (no IKD and KD until late on) from 1-40. I don't have the opportunity right now to take a proper look at the build, but you should be able to get most of the same feats, and there's no 'wasted' Monk level 7.
Avendesora84, Thanks for the input -
I know what you mean by the wasted Monk 7, but I really hate delaying Improved Knockdown. I think it's so critical to a melee build - that's why I drove for it from character levels 2-7. Then I wanted to max out Tumble late in the build, thus Monk level 7 at 40 :/ And I couldn't use one of my 10 levels of SD to maximize Tumble since I needed those early in the build to qualify for Epic Dodge.
I had considered moving 3 levels from Ranger to SD but Rangers get a bonus feat at 23. So I felt I'd rather have the HP of the Ranger, plus the Bonus Feat (another FE).
So if I were to go with your suggested Ranger 21/Monk 6/SD 7, I would gain one more bonus feat at the cost of delaying Imp. Knockdown? Where would you advise putting Monk level 6?
Thanks, Kaliban
PS - I really liked your Ko’di Blademaster build. I have a Monk 12/Ftr 6/WM 22 Greatsword specialist that is very similar. _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
the general direction that im going is that, in order for a ranger to really be worth it (RP value not withstanding) he should have a lot of FEs, that should be the driving goal of ranger builds. you can take a few lvls of ranger early on (up to 9) just to have the better AB and 8 attacks. (6 main and 2 off) after that, you could take 20+ lvls of monk. this will get you all the monk goodness, instead of being able to hit just 6 enemies for +2 ab and 6+2d6 damage more points of damage (and the spot checks and so on). If you know exactly the enemies that you will run into, then its ok, but othewise..
as it stands, you have something that is neither a monk, nor a ranger. also, do you have a particular preferance for picking shadow dancer? I would pick assasin (and did). you have an extra feat and you get UMD plus with 11 lvs of assasin, you have 6d6 death attacks. with UMD you could cast keen edge spells on your weapons and so buff your self up. Plus you get Imp. Invis as a class feat, so now your Epic Dodge is really useful because every attack has to bypass 50% concealment first, and THEN you can epic dodge it. You actually will have ttwo Imp.Invis, one from monk, one from assasin, that means that if its dispelled, you dont care because you have a back up.
with that many monk lvls, you dont have to worry about being found out, you can run in and out as if you have HIPS, (gone before they know it, so to speak)
Edited By aluka on 05/30/05 07:00
Quote: Posted 05/30/05 06:35:00 (GMT) -- aluka as it stands, you have something that is neither a monk, nor a ranger. also, do you have a particular preferance for picking shadow dancer? I would pick assasin (and did). you have an extra feat and you get UMD plus with 11 lvs of assasin, you have 6d6 death attacks. with UMD you could cast keen edge spells on your weapons and so buff your self up. Plus you get Imp. Invis as a class feat, so now your Epic Dodge is really useful because every attack has to bypass 50% concealment first, and THEN you can epic dodge it. You actually will have ttwo Imp.Invis, one from monk, one from assasin, that means that if its dispelled, you dont care because you have a back up.
Well, since the point of the build was a ranger/monk with Epic Dodge, assassin isn't an option. You can't get Epic Dodge without Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll, and only rogue and shadowdancer get Defensive Roll.
Quote: Posted 05/30/05 06:35:00 (GMT) -- aluka as it stands, you have something that is neither a monk, nor a ranger. also, do you have a particular preferance for picking shadow dancer? I would pick assasin (and did). you have an extra feat and you get UMD plus with 11 lvs of assasin, you have 6d6 death attacks. with UMD you could cast keen edge spells on your weapons and so buff your self up. Plus you get Imp. Invis as a class feat, so now your Epic Dodge is really useful because every attack has to bypass 50% concealment first, and THEN you can epic dodge it. You actually will have ttwo Imp.Invis, one from monk, one from assasin, that means that if its dispelled, you dont care because you have a back up.
Well, since the point of the build was a ranger/monk with Epic Dodge, assassin isn't an option. You can't get Epic Dodge without Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll, and only rogue and shadowdancer get Defensive Roll.
Steve
What he said! _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Okay, <rubs hands vigorously together> Time to take you to the Learning Tree (again).
First, I would try to get that Builder Bonus Feat a lot earlier than 41st....pre-epic if at all possible, maybe even before Monk lvl 6th.
As far as scrappy Ranger/Monks with Epic Dodge, let me introduce you to the Rogue Tiger. I'm playing that one now through The Sunless Citadel, and I quickly discovered that I was better off scrapping Ranger and going Fighter, but I lost some Role-playing flavor (granted, he only had 9 Ranger levels, but what the hell). He was also Rogue-based more than anything.
In your build, though, I would keep Ranger. However, allow me to show some overlap where you can tighten the build and make the Ranger stronger:
You take 7 Monk and 10 SD for a total of 17 Character levels. There's some overlap here. What you could do instead is take 9 Monk, 5 Shadowdancer, still qualify for Epic Dodge, and have 3 levels to pump into Ranger for 2 more Favored Enemies and a stronger Animal Companion. Final leveling would be 26/9/5.
This will also allow you to take a few more Monk levels in pre-epic to bolster your Saves. The only thing you really lose is Slippery Mind. But in gaining those two FEs, he really becomes a bit more of melee beast. Also, having 8 FEs and Bane will help soothe the Alukas in the community. The 9 Monk also increases his base speed by 10%. Too bad there's not room for that 10th Monk level for one more AC bonus.
It's hard to justify 14 Wisdom with a Ranger because their 4th level spells are just a waste. In a Monk build, though, it's easily justified. I suppose you can just look at it as giving the build more Hitpoints, for I would just use the Summon over and over again to absorb bodyblows.
Other than that, nice build.
One other note: it might be worth looking into the leveling mechanics in this build: If you go the way I suggested, either Monk 9 or SD 5 will have to be taken relatively late in order to max Tumble (either at 36 or 39). I'm not sure how important that is. But if you're not taking Bane (arguably the most important feat in this build) until level 39 in the current build, then not really sure. You could compromise and take only 25 Ranger, 5SD and 9 Monk, get Epic Dodge right away, and then take a 10th level Monk to top out those skills at 40th. You lose 1 FE, but you gain 1 AC and still the ability to top out skills. From a playability standpoint from level 1 up, that probably is a good compromise.
However, in pre-epic, I would advise going 12 Ranger and 8 Monk, and take your 5 SD from 21 to 26, or 26 to 30, and still get Epic Dodge at Level 30. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Okay, <rubs hands vigorously together> Time to take you to the Learning Tree (again).
First, I would try to get that Builder Bonus Feat a lot earlier than 41st....pre-epic if at all possible, maybe even before Monk lvl 6th.
As far as scrappy Ranger/Monks with Epic Dodge, let me introduce you to the Rogue Tiger.
I've had that one bookmarked since you posted it. I like that build.
(/quote) In your build, though, I would keep Ranger. However, allow me to show some overlap where you can tighten the build and make the Ranger stronger:
You take 7 Monk and 10 SD for a total of 17 Character levels. There's some overlap here. What you could do instead is take 9 Monk, 5 Shadowdancer, still qualify for Epic Dodge, and have 3 levels to pump into Ranger for 2 more Favored Enemies and a stronger Animal Companion. Final leveling would be 26/9/5.
This will also allow you to take a few more Monk levels in pre-epic to bolster your Saves. The only thing you really lose is Slippery Mind. But in gaining those two FEs, he really becomes a bit more of melee beast. Also, having 8 FEs and Bane will help soothe the Alukas in the community. The 9 Monk also increases his base speed by 10%. Too bad there's not room for that 10th Monk level for one more AC bonus.
It's hard to justify 14 Wisdom with a Ranger because their 4th level spells are just a waste. In a Monk build, though, it's easily justified. I suppose you can just look at it as giving the build more Hitpoints, for I would just use the Summon over and over again to absorb bodyblows.
Other than that, nice build.(/quote)
Now THAT is the kind of feedback I was looking for. Thanks for taking the time to provide specific points.
I'll rebuild him in the Novice to Epic Guild using your suggestions and post the revision here so we can see how it looks.
Thanks, Kaliban. _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Always a pleasure, Kaliban. Although, I'm not sure if you caught my edit in time in regards to the following:
Quote: One other note: it might be worth looking into the leveling mechanics in this build: If you go the way I suggested, either Monk 9 or SD 5 will have to be taken relatively late in order to max Tumble (either at 36 or 39). I'm not sure how important that is. But if you're not taking Bane (arguably the most important feat in this build) until level 39 in the current build, then not really sure. You could compromise and take only 25 Ranger, 5SD and 9 Monk, get Epic Dodge right away, and then take a 10th level Monk to top out those skills at 40th. You lose 1 FE, but you gain 1 AC and still the ability to top out skills. From a playability standpoint from level 1 up, that probably is a good compromise.
However, in pre-epic, I would advise going 12 Ranger and 8 Monk, and take your 5 SD from 21 to 26, or 26 to 30, and still get Epic Dodge at Level 30
As stated earlier, going 25/10/5 is a compromise for playing from ground up. But if you're starting at 40, or are in a quick-level environment, I would advise the 26/9/5. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Those are excellent comments grizzled. I love it when everything in a build just fits (just enough monk and SD to get the prereqs for Epic Dodge, just enough Ranger to squeeze out another epic bonus feat).
Steve
I’d argue in favour of my hasty suggestion yesterday if I didn’t think grizzled’s offering wasn’t superior. With his build you could get your IKD and KD early.
There are still some minor points to make though. By choosing a Monk 9 and SD 5 build, if you want to get maximum AC from Tumble, this will force you to take Epic Dodge as late on in the levelling as possible. That’s something to take into consideration, since you expressed a desire to get it early.
Grizzled stated this in his comments, and advised Ranger 25/Monk 10/ SD 5, if ease of levelling was an issue with you, as you indicated it might be. With my suggestion of Ranger 21/Monk 6/SD 13, getting Epic Dodge early and Tumble all the way through the build isn’t an issue at all, nor do you have any ‘wasted’ levels when you hit 40. Epic Dodge is a great feat in any build, but whether getting that early is worth losing two FEs, or taking a compromised ‘wasted’ level is up to you.
Personally, I’d go with the Ranger 26/Monk 9/SD 5. None of the suggestions above are in the vein of the Bioware Epic Build ‘Dragon Kin’, where all the punch is in the last few levels. You’ll do just fine even if you delay the sweetest parts of this character. _________________ If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips. -Birgitte
So if I were to go with your suggested Ranger 21/Monk 6/SD 7, I would gain one more bonus feat at the cost of delaying Imp. Knockdown? Where would you advise putting Monk level 6?
Thanks, Kaliban
If you ended up going Ranger 21/Monk 6/SD 13, Ranger 16> Monk 6 > pretty much whatever you want, would be best. I don't like losing precious BAB in what is an unequivocally melee build, that doesn't have any Great Dex to supplement it either.
Quote: PS - I really liked your Ko’di Blademaster build. I have a Monk 12/Ftr 6/WM 22 Greatsword specialist that is very similar.
And thanks. It's not entirely mine, so I can't take full credit - there were people on my server who played similar builds, but I tweaked it a fair bit as I saw fit, and to the requirements the original poster in Build Requests needed.
I'd post more if I had time. There seems to be a dearth of Dexer builds on the forum, and apart from Syrath's Fighter 14/WM 7/SD 19, I haven't seen many good ones.
Maybe something to do in the future. _________________ If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips. -Birgitte
It's not entirely mine, so I can't take full credit - there were people on my server who played similar builds, but I tweaked it a fair bit as I saw fit, and to the requirements the original poster in Build Requests needed.