The Untouchable (29 Rogue/1 Sorcerer/10 Red Dragon Disciple) by Cakerj
The initial idea for this build was: 50% concealment (not just for some time, like monk`s Empty Body, but always) plus Devastating Critical. And I achieve this objective. But, in the end, it wasn`t as good as I expected. Reason: low saves (except for reflex) and low AB. But I decided to post it anyways, so you can see it for yourself. There you are:
CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT: Level Class Feats Ability Bonus 1 Rogue Power Attack 2 Rogue 3 Rogue Shield Proficiency 4 Rogue - - DEX 5 Rogue 6 Rogue Weapon Focus (rapier) 7 Sorcerer 8 Red Dragon - - DEX 9 Red Dragon Cleave 10 Red Dragon 11 Red Dragon 12 Red Dragon Dodge DEX 13 Red Dragon 14 Red Dragon 15 Red Dragon Imp. Critical (rapier) 16 Red Dragon - - DEX 17 Rogue 18 Rogue Great Cleave 19 Rogue 20 Rogue Imp. Evasion* - DEX 21 Rogue Great Dextery I 22 Rogue 23 Rogue Epic Skill Focus (hide)* 24 Rogue Great Dextery II - DEX 25 Rogue 26 Rogue - Epic Skill Focus (move silently)* 27 Rogue Great Dextery III 28 Rogue DEX 29 Rogue Self-Concealment I 30 Rogue Self-Concealment II 31 Rogue 32 Rogue STR 33 Rogue Self-Concealment III 34 Rogue Self-Concealment IV 35 Red Dragon 36 Rogue Overwhelming Critical (rapier) - STR 37 Rogue 38 Rogue 39 Rogue Devastating Critical (rapier) / Self-Concealment V 40 Rogue STR
Observations: This build was tested and (since I didn`t typo anything wrong) it works. I forgot to note, at the time I made this build, his skill points. All I can remember now it that you need 8 lore by level 7 and 20 (if I am not wrong) in hide and move silently by level 23. * These are rogue extra feats
FINAL STATS (naked) : AC : 32 HP : 252(no rerols) fort: 20 reflex: 30 will: 20 AB (mundane rapier): +32/+27/+22 1-6+8 (critical: 15-20/x2)
PROS: - nice naked AC - self-concealment V - improved evasion - epic dodge (it comes as a free feat, I just dont remember at what level) - access to use magic device - with hide and move silently maximized and Epic Skill Focus in both of them, you`re undetectable. - a 15d6 sneak attack (since you`re hardly detected when in stealth this is a useful attack). - devastating critical of 12-20 (with keen) - immune to sleep, paralysis and fire
CONS: - medrioce HP - very low AB and damage - low saves (except for reflex)
Off course, with access to buffs and all items of the game (use magic device), these stats can get higher, but since I havent tried, I`m still pretty unsure of this build. It has a good concept and, in fact, it`s very hard to hit, but the way it is it would be better to use monk`s empty body.
If you guys have any idea on how to improve this build (especially on the 3 cons) speak out.
Edited By griphook on 06/09/05 18:01
Firstly you need defensive roll for epic dodge. Secondly you never get it for free. That being said swap out the epic skill focus for defensive roll and epic dodge and the build is sorted.
Nice idea.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
If you could squeeze in Weapon Finesse that would give you a couple more AB; rumour has it, and I have never tried that you don't actually need weapon focus for Overwhelming and Dev Crit, so that may be a way to go.
Well, without checking how it would turn out, you could try to take only 8 rogue levs pre-epic, and then use two bard or sorc levs to minimize BAB loss. Or take 12 lev rogue pre-epic, this will kep BAB loss to a minimum. Also, switch those feats mentioned above, and switch imp evasion for EWF, it should be possible, since you can use the rogue levs taken epic to gain great dex. But you have to do some revising. Nice char, though.
Well, without checking how it would turn out, you could try to take only 8 rogue levs pre-epic, and then use two bard or sorc levs to minimize BAB loss. Or take 12 lev rogue pre-epic, this will kep BAB loss to a minimum. Also, switch those feats mentioned above, and switch imp evasion for EWF, it should be possible, since you can use the rogue levs taken epic to gain great dex. But you have to do some revising. Nice char, though.
Rogue doesnt get great DEX only bard,harper scout, assassin and arcane archer get it as a bonus feat
Firstly you need defensive roll for epic dodge. Secondly you never get it for free. That being said swap out the epic skill focus for defensive roll and epic dodge and the build is sorted.
Nice idea.
Syrath
Yeah, youre right, Ive mistaken with Uncanny Dodge.
Damn, how can I edit the first message of the topic?
and switch imp evasion for EWF, it should be possible, since you can use the rogue levs taken epic to gain great dex
I dont know if I get you right (I guess you meant to take ewf and not imp. evasion), but I need imp. evasion for self-concealment and its taken as a rogue extra feat.
Edited By cakerj on 05/31/05 13:51
Quote: Posted 05/31/05 13:18:17 (GMT) -- mphacon
If you could squeeze in Weapon Finesse that would give you a couple more AB; rumour has it, and I have never tried that you don't actually need weapon focus for Overwhelming and Dev Crit, so that may be a way to go.
Yes, you`re right, it works. This way (switching Weapon Focus for Weapon Finesse) you get 1 more AB.
I had a similar build somewhere around here, though I think I went for SCV and EDRIII The Wyrmling
Looking over your build, there seems to be an XP penalty from level 7 and up. However, there's really little other choice. To take SD would suck up two more feats, and would require you to start with a Bard with a 11 Charisma. Not really practical if even possible.
In addition to the other suggestions offered (dropping the Skill Foci for the appropriate feats), I would also suggest stopping at Rogue 28, and take 1 more lvl of Sorcerer to max out your Spellcraft. You won't miss that 1 sneak die, and it will help mitigate your admitted build's weakness in the save category.
Two more things: Drop Shield Proficiency and Dodge. Instead, take Weapon Finesse and Knockdown. If you take Bard instead of Sorceror, you get Shield proficiency for free. Also get a better skill set. The character then has two combat modes: if he needs to do extra damage, he can go to two-handed mode with a spear (i believe the spear delivers two-handed weapon damage, and it's a simple weapon), but if it's AB you need then go to weapon finesse mode with rapier. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
I had a similar build somewhere around here, though I think I went for SCV and EDRIII The Wyrmling
Looking over your build, there seems to be an XP penalty from level 7 and up. However, there's really little other choice. To take SD would suck up two more feats, and would require you to start with a Bard with a 11 Charisma. Not really practical if even possible.
In addition to the other suggestions offered (dropping the Skill Foci for the appropriate feats), I would also suggest stopping at Rogue 28, and take 1 more lvl of Sorcerer to max out your Spellcraft. You won't miss that 1 sneak die, and it will help mitigate your admitted build's weakness in the save category.
Two more things: Drop Shield Proficiency and Dodge. Instead, take Weapon Finesse and Knockdown. If you take Bard instead of Sorceror, you get Shield proficiency for free. Also get a better skill set. The character then has two combat modes: if he needs to do extra damage, he can go to two-handed mode with a spear (i believe the spear delivers two-handed weapon damage, and it's a simple weapon), but if it's AB you need then go to weapon finesse mode with rapier.
Nice ideas, grizzled. I will sure post an atualized version of this build, I`m just waiting for more ideas like these.
But I will problaly keep dodge to include epic dodge in the place of epic skill focus.
And one question: is knockdown a good choice (I mean on this build, with a low ab)?
Thanks, grizz
Remember, you don't need Dodge to get Epic Dodge. Nor do you need it for SC. It's not a requirement for anything this character does. It only gives you 1AC vs 1 opponent. Nice, but not as useful as Knockdown. With Knockdown, you use it when you are performing a sneak attack, catch them flatfooted, which means they will not get their Dex bonuses. Spam them with Knockdown in your initial Sneak Salvo, get them prone, and then they suffer even more sneaks with your +4 to hit.
It works.
And by taking Weapon Finesse, I believe you raise you AB by +2 since your final Dex is 30 and your Str is 26. _________________ Homer: Lisa, would you like a donut? Lisa: No thanks. Do you have any fruit? Homer: This has purple in it. Purple is a fruit.
Remember, you don't need Dodge to get Epic Dodge. Nor do you need it for SC. It's not a requirement for anything this character does. It only gives you 1AC vs 1 opponent.
Are you sure about that? in my HoTU book it says you need Dodge for Epic Dodge, so, unless its bugged like Devastating critical and weapon focus, you need it.
Nice, but not as useful as Knockdown. With Knockdown, you use it when you are performing a sneak attack, catch them flatfooted, which means they will not get their Dex bonuses. Spam them with Knockdown in your initial Sneak Salvo, get them prone, and then they suffer even more sneaks with your +4 to hit.
And by taking Weapon Finesse, I believe you raise you AB by +2 since your final Dex is 30 and your Str is 26.
Ya, +2 to AB.
and one question about bard song: Can I use bard song with only 10 Charisma? And how long does it last? Becuase using it, even with only 2 bards lvls, I could get one more point to AB and damage.
Edited By cakerj on 05/31/05 21:42
Epic dodge has a bug in that it does not require the feat dodge nor does it require the tumble ranks listed. It only requires 1 rank.
Bioware have stated that they are leaving it as is because it "will break too many builds". That of course may change in a future patch, but I doubt it.
Remember, you don't need Dodge to get Epic Dodge. Nor do you need it for SC. It's not a requirement for anything this character does. It only gives you 1AC vs 1 opponent.
Are you sure about that? in my HoTU book it says you need Dodge for Epic Dodge, so, unless its bugged like Devastating critical and weapon focus, you need it.
This is one of many known errors in the manual. You do not need Dodge for either of those.
Quote: and one question about bard song: Can I use bard song with only 10 Charisma? And how long does it last? Becuase using it, even with only 2 bards lvls, I could get one more point to AB and damage.
You do not need any specific CHA to use Bard Song. You do need enough points in Perform though. In this case (where you're only talking about 1-2 levels of bard), you'd need 3 points in Perform for level 1 bard song, and 6 points for level 2 bard song (you'd of course also have to be at least a level 2 bard for level 2 bard song). Your CHA modifier would get added to your perform skill. Bard Song lasts for 10 rounds, although the feat Lingering Song adds 5 extra rounds and Lasting Inspiration makes it last 10x as long.
Steve
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 05/31/05 22:31
Thanks, guys, I was afraid that, with low Charisma, bard song would be useless. At least one more point for Ab and damage
What do you think of switching 1 initial point of STR to 2 points on CON to raise that very low hit points? IT will have the 25 STR needed for Devastating Critical and, since the AB will be based on DEX (from Weapon Finesse), the only con will be 1 less damage per hit. So what do you think: 1 more damage or 40 more hit points?
Quote: Posted 05/31/05 23:07:39 (GMT) -- cakerj
What do you think of switching 1 initial point of STR to 2 points on CON to raise that very low hit points? IT will have the 25 STR needed for Devastating Critical and, since the AB will be based on DEX (from Weapon Finesse), the only con will be 1 less damage per hit. So what do you think: 1 more damage or 40 more hit points?
I'd do the switch. Note that you'll need to take STR at level 28 and the final DEX at level 40 instead in order for your STR to be high enough in time to get overwhelming/dev critical. That won't effect your other feats though since you'll still reach 30 DEX before your first Self Concealment feat.
What do you think of switching 1 initial point of STR to 2 points on CON to raise that very low hit points? IT will have the 25 STR needed for Devastating Critical and, since the AB will be based on DEX (from Weapon Finesse), the only con will be 1 less damage per hit. So what do you think: 1 more damage or 40 more hit points?
I'd do the switch. Note that you'll need to take STR at level 28 and the final DEX at level 40 instead in order for your STR to be high enough in time to get overwhelming/dev critical. That won't effect your other feats though since you'll still reach 30 DEX before your first Self Concealment feat.
Steve
After I made the question, I realized that I didnt know how to switch this without losing self-concealment V or devastating.
I didn`t exactly get what you said, Steve. If a take STR on level 28 I won`t have the necessary DEX for self-concealment on level 29 (when I get rogue extra feat and pick self-concealment 1). This being said, I won`t be able to get self-concealment and devastating.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Edited By cakerj on 06/01/05 00:05
I didn't look at it in detail, but it appears that you can't pull devastating crit off in time. Regardless, I would argue in favor of leaving your strength the way it is. You have Epic Dodge, SC V , 14d6sneak (going by a 2Bard variant), UMD, a decent AB with some Dex enhancers. You can be a real pain in someone's life. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
What do you think of switching 1 initial point of STR to 2 points on CON to raise that very low hit points? IT will have the 25 STR needed for Devastating Critical and, since the AB will be based on DEX (from Weapon Finesse), the only con will be 1 less damage per hit. So what do you think: 1 more damage or 40 more hit points?
I'd do the switch. Note that you'll need to take STR at level 28 and the final DEX at level 40 instead in order for your STR to be high enough in time to get overwhelming/dev critical. That won't effect your other feats though since you'll still reach 30 DEX before your first Self Concealment feat.
Steve
After I made the question, I realized that I didnt know how to switch this without losing self-concealment V or devastating.
I didn`t exactly get what you said, Steve. If a take STR on level 28 I won`t have the necessary DEX for self-concealment on level 29 (when I get rogue extra feat and pick self-concealment 1). This being said, I won`t be able to get self-concealment and devastating.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Yeah, I realized I miscounted. There's no way to get both if you drop strength any farther.
Steve
Isn't that funny, Steve? How, at the end of the day, it still boils down to Math? Too bad I suck at it. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Well, I test the atualized character and post the build here with the new stats.
Thanks for the help, guys.
PS:If you still have suggestion feel free to post.
What do you think of switching 1 initial point of STR to 2 points on CON to raise that very low hit points? IT will have the 25 STR needed for Devastating Critical and, since the AB will be based on DEX (from Weapon Finesse), the only con will be 1 less damage per hit. So what do you think: 1 more damage or 40 more hit points?
