OK, this is my first attempt at a build, so be gentle
Apologies if this has been done before, I hadnt seen any detailed breakdowns of this build.
Initial thoughts were to make a PC as close to immune to physical damage as humanly (or in this case Dwarvenly) possible.
Pale Defender
Start Finish Str 14 22 (4 from Great Strength epic feats) Dex 14 14 Con 16 22 Wis 8 8 Int 12 12 Cha 13 13
Con is Prereq for Epic DR feats, str is to improve attack bonus/damage.
Total skill points: 44 (8 bard levels, 1 of which is 1st) + 64 (32 total levels of DD and PM) + 43 (int bonus over 40 levels) = 151
Level Class Feats Stat 1 Bard Dodge 2 Bard 3 Bard Toughness 4 PM Con 5 PM 6 PM Power Attack 7 PM 8 Bard Con 9 Bard Blind Fight 10 Bard 11 Bard 12 DD Weapon Focus Con 13 DD 14 DD 15 DD Imp Crit 16 DD Con 17 DD 18 DD Extend Spell 19 DD 20 DD Con 21 PM Armour Skin 22 PM 23 PM 24 PM Ep Weap Foc Con 25 PM 26 PM 27 DD Great Str I 28 DD Str 29 DD 30 DD Great Str II 31 DD DR I 32 DD Str 33 DD Great Str III 34 DD 35 DD DR II 36 DD Great Str IV Str 37 DD 38 DD 39 DD DR III, Epic Prowess 40 Bard Str
Final Stats:
skill ranks: Discipline: 43 Perform: 15 (for max bard song for level 8 bard) Spellcraft: 40 Tumble: 40 UMD: 13 (cos I had some spare)
HP unbuffed/equipped: 670 AB with nonmagical Greatsword: +36/+31/+26/+21 (I took focus, imp crit etc on Greatsword cos it seemed the best all round 2 handed weapon). AC with nonmagical Full plate: 35 + 1 from Dodge vs 1 oenemy.
Saves: Fort: 28 Ref: 21 Will: 24
DR: 24 Immunities: Stun, Hold, Paralyzation and Critical Hits.
Extend spell is so you can buff before you armour up, as there are some quite good bard level 1-3 spells for that. Cha 13 is enough for all the spells you get from bard levels (PM levels lets you cast some level 4 spell slots if you get at least 1 point Cha boost from somewhere, use Extended 3rd level spells for these spots).
Weak points: not the highest attack/damage of a melee build. Gonna get killed by a combat spellcaster probably.
Things I would like to improve: Feat allocation, not sure if it could be better. Stat allocation if it still allows the prereqs for Epic DR. Skill point allocation if it makes a difference.
(Note: apparently bard song capability is based on Perform skill ranks + cha bonus, even though Tumble/Spellcraft AC/Save bonuses are based _just_ on ranks known, so even wearing armour with a check penalty or having a massive dex bonus doesnt mess with your Tumble AC bonus, so you could drop a point of Perform and put it into UMD if this is true?)
Obviously no Dev Crit on this build, not possible to get it + the 3 epic dr feats unfortunately. The feats I took instead seemed to complement the build, but I was wondering if there is a better combination.
Any suggestions? Thoughts? Comments? Thanks in advance!
Edit: *mutters* lost my formatting, will correct with spaces instead of tabs
Edited By griphook on 06/11/05 17:55
have you tested this character?
Because, in the nevewinter nights book it says that bards cant be any lawful alignment, and dwarven defenders can only be from a lawful alignment. So, as long as these books are wrong, this build can`t be done.
cakerj
Anyway, lets say it`s bugged and dwarden defernder/bards are a possible combination, I would suggests a few changes to your build:
1)First of all, try to get the most possible DD levels pre-epic (in the case, get 10 DDs levels before lvl 20). I don`t know if ther`s a particular reason for taking 4 PM levels at the beggining of the build. If there´s, tell me? If not, change them, put only 3 and take another DD level. This can raise up your AB.
2) Why 14 DEX? Only for Dodge? As a armoured fighter, you won`t need too much DEX, so you can improve another ability. Pick another feat, and put these ability points on STR.
cakerj
Quote: Posted 06/02/05 00:00:33 (GMT) -- cakerj
have you tested this character?
Because, in the nevewinter nights book it says that bards cant be any lawful alignment, and dwarven defenders can only be from a lawful alignment. So, as long as these books are wrong, this build can`t be done.
cakerj
You only have to be non-lawful to level up as a bard, and lawful to level up as a defender. You don't lose any of the benefits of either class if you later switch to a different alignment. So, this character just needs to change alignments during the leveling, once between levels 11 and 12 (from neutral to lawful) and then back from lawful to neutral between levels 39 and 40. There are quite a few builds here that require alignment shifts, even on the Bioware Epic Character Builds page. Many PvP type PWs give you easy ways to shift alignment, and it also doesn't have to be a huge shift either. As long as he keeps the character right around the neutral/lawful border, it would only take a few points to switch alignment anyway. This build is completely buildable.
Steve
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 06/02/05 01:48
Quote: Posted 06/02/05 00:21:01 (GMT) -- cakerj 1)First of all, try to get the most possible DD levels pre-epic (in the case, get 10 DDs levels before lvl 20). I don`t know if ther`s a particular reason for taking 4 PM levels at the beggining of the build. If there´s, tell me?
4 levels of Pale Master gives you +4 AC right off the bat, as well as the less significant bonuses of Animate Dead and Summon Undead
Quote: If not, change them, put only 3 and take another DD level. This can raise up your AB.
Actually, it wouldn't. The 4th Pale Master level gives you +1 BAB, just like a 10th Defender level would. His current pre-epic leveling of Bard(7)/PM(4)/DwD(9) gives him an BAB of
5 (bard) +2 (PM) +9 (DwD) -------- 16
Going Bard(7)/PM(3)/DwD(10) gives you:
5 (bard) + 1 (PM) +10 (DwD) --------- 16
The highest he could get his Pre-Epic AB is 17, by going something like Bard(8)/PM(2)/DwD(10). He could also go Bard(10)/DwD(10) for the same effect, but that delays the PM levels a bit much.
Quote: 2) Why 14 DEX? Only for Dodge? As a armoured fighter, you won`t need too much DEX, so you can improve another ability. Pick another feat, and put these ability points on STR.
cakerj
Dodge is a prerequisite for the Dwarven Defender prestige class. So, he has to take it, and thus has to have at least 13 DEX. So, we're only taking 1 point that could be moved, which would only be enough to boost WIS or INT to an odd number. INT 13 would enable him to take Improved Knockdown though, although he hasn't taken Knockdown to begin with.
Steve
Edit: By the way, I like it . I like the combination of Pale Master AC with Dwarven Defender DR. It's a bit strapped for feats, but still looks like an interesting build.
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 06/02/05 01:46
Quote: Posted 06/01/05 22:34:53 (GMT) -- aardnebby skill ranks: Discipline: 43 Perform: 15 (for max bard song for level 8 bard) Spellcraft: 40 Tumble: 40 UMD: 13 (cos I had some spare)
This is minor, but you'd be much better off going Perform 14 and UMD 14. Your CHA modifier gets added to your Perform and UMD checks, so you'd still have a perform check of 15 for your Bard Song. UMD however works in multiples of 5. A UMD check of 13 (14 actually with your +1 from CHA) isn't any better than a check of 10. It only gets better once you get to 15, and putting that 14th point in UMD instead of wasting an unnecessary point in perform will get you to 15 with your +1 from CHA.
Steve
cakerj: Yes I am aware of the alignment change requirements, it's a pain, but it's not illegal on the character. Not bugged either.
Well, at least in that way... when playing with it becoming more lawful occasionally caused it to warn me I would no longer be able to advance as a PM not a bard or whatever, it got the classes confused on the warning messages, but still worked out.
As for taking only 9 DD levels pre-epic, the only way to qualify for DD is by having a BAB of +7. So I would need more bard levels to get that earlier, which reduces the number of DD levels I could have _total_. I'd trade 3 points of DR for 22nd level of DD for 1 BAB gained pre-epic.
Dex 14: yup, the only reason I took this was I had nowhere else to stick the last point to make an even number, and hey, there may be a time when you dont want to wear full plate. (Cha 14 would have cost 2 points due to dwarven racial modifiers).
Not dismissing your comments, just explaining why I did it the way I did.
Yes it is light on feats, thats a major problem of the build, can anyone suggest better choices?
Trading 1 point of perform for 1 point of UMD: I kinda suspected that, thanks for the confirmation!
hum... Got it.
-1 CHA, +2 INT and max UMD, which in my opinion is far superior to a weak level 3 spell.
You could also consider taking 16 lvls of PM to get epic mage armor and epic warding. Doing this you trade damage reduction but you gain a higher ac. With your original build you have more damage reduction but lower ac. So it just depends on which is the better tradeoff for whatever world you play on.
Personally I would go 14 bard/10 dd/16 pm
With 40 tumble and all the ac bonuses from pm and spells you will rarelly get hit and even if you do, you just shrug it off anyways. Plus your AB will be higher due to pre-epic lvling and a better bard song/curse. Also I would say taunt is a must have due to the average AB.
You could also consider taking 16 lvls of PM to get epic mage armor and epic warding. Doing this you trade damage reduction but you gain a higher ac. With your original build you have more damage reduction but lower ac. So it just depends on which is the better tradeoff for whatever world you play on.
Personally I would go 14 bard/10 dd/16 pm
With 40 tumble and all the ac bonuses from pm and spells you will rarelly get hit and even if you do, you just shrug it off anyways. Plus your AB will be higher due to pre-epic lvling and a better bard song/curse. Also I would say taunt is a must have due to the average AB.
for pvp, as someone pointed out on another thread about these builds, epic defensive spells on a -melee- build is a waste if you are up against a competent melee'r who will just run out and wait for your buffs to fade. i like the build personally. immunity to crit with some dr is pretty sweet. _________________ People with no lives try to live others.
Hmm I was thinking about posting my own Bard, Pale Master, Dwarvern Defender, however it is not really different enough from this one to really qualify a new build thread...
...I use slightly different starting stats:
Str - 14 Dex - 14 Con - 15 Int - 12 Wis - 8 Cha - 13
This allows me to put more into Str, allowing a massive 1 increase to AB and damage, at the sacrifice of a few skill points! ...and 2AC from loss of Armor Skin feat
Also I opt for Exotic Weapon proficiency, to use a Bastard Sword and tower shield (maybe a Dwarvern War-axe if you'd prefer!) Ignoring the power attack/cleave option...
but that's really all the difference...well I play it PvM rather than being a PvP garbage can _________________ Grrr...hear my roar!!!
. I like the combination of Pale Master AC with Dwarven Defender DR. It's a bit strapped for feats, but still looks like an interesting build.