This is a DEX-based build with the intent of using Cleric buffs to augment damage and AB, while obtaining Epic Dodge to help out in survivability. It's a dual-wielder which I built with short swords as the weapons of choice. Anyhow, here's the Blessed Sneak:
21)CoT 1: GRT DEX I (24) 22)Rogue 13: Defensive Roll 23)CoT 2: GRT WIS (15) 24)Cleric 9: Epic Dodge/ DEX (25) 25)Cleric 10 26)CoT 3 27)Rogue 14: GRT DEX II (26) 28)CoT 4: GRT WIS II (16)/ DEX (27) 29)Cleric 11 30)Cleric 12: GRT DEX III (28) 31)Rogue 15 32)Rogue 16: Crippling Strike/ DEX (29) 33)Rogue 17: GRT DEX IV (30) 34)CoT 5 35)CoT 6: Epic Weapon Focus 36)CoT 7: Epic Prowess DEX/ (31) 37)Rogue 18 38)Cleric 13 39)Rogue 19: Toughness*/Slippery Mind 40)CoT 8: Armor Skin/ DEX (32)
*These could be anything of your choice.
Domains: I'd go with Strength and Trickery. Strength mainly for the Divine Power buff at levels 3 and 4 (as well as 5 with the Silent Spell feat) Trickery gives the Invis line of spells, ending with the excellent Improved Invis.
Final AB dual-wielding and unbuffed is: +38.
Buffed with Divine Power, it rises to +43 and gives you 3 attacks at your highest AB, 2 at your second highest. You'll get even better AB by stacking more Cleric buffs on that.
Hit Points: Not a strong suit with this character, as I ended up with 273 in a leveller (no rerolls - and I got some really bad rolls). However, you could switch STR to 10 and CON to 12 for 40 more, as well as buffing with Endurance to get yourself a few more than that.
Unbuffed Saves (Spellcraft Bonus vs Spells):
FORT: 24 (32) REF: 35 (43) WILL: 27 (35)
Naked AC: 31
Final Stats:
STR 12 DEX 32 CON 10 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 8
Skills: Max Hide, MS, Spellcraft to 40, Tumble to 40, UMD to whatever's appropriate for your environment, Discipline, and you should still have 20 or so points left over, depending how much you dump into UMD.
I'd use spells solely for buffing and defense, other than the following:
Cast Ultravision and load up on Darkness spells to generate sneak attacks.
You get a decent Darkfire boost on two weapons, Bull's STR to up your damage, all the good Cleric buffs to agument AB/damage, and a good number of spells per day.
Sneak attack is an acceptable 10d6.
Suggestions/criticisms welcome. Flames not welcome. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
13 is honestly a slightly odd cleric level to end at...The ideal level to stop at is 15, because that maxes out all of those "+1 every 3 levels, to a max of +5" spells. 15 levels of cleric would give you +2 to AB and damage (from Divine Favor and Greater Magic Weapon) and +1 to AC (Magical Vestment). The only question is which other class to drop. I would drop two levels of CoT. You'll lose Armor Skin, but your picking up +1 AC anyway from GMW). The other way you'll lose 1d6 sneak (Slippery Mind isn't much of a loss considering your will saves are very high for a rogue).
Anyway, just an idea. It's a good build though.
Steve
Very nice. This is an effective combo, and you use the CoT levels the way I like to use them. I question the stat selection, though. Cleric and Rogue combine for a great skill set. I would consider a 17 Dex, and put 2 points immediately into Intelligence. Or, leave Dex 18 and take two from Strength. Maybe he gets a enough skill points already, I'm not sure. But you obviously want Spellcraft, Concentration, Discipline, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, and UMD maxed. I can't add, so someone else will have to do the math. And you still probably want a few to plug in the other utility skills. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Quote: Posted 06/05/05 20:07:03 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord I can't add, so someone else will have to do the math.
Skill points should add up as follows: 8*3 bonus at start 8*19 rogue 2*13 cleric 2*8 CoT =24+152+26+16 =218 Total skill points
Edited By pulse cap on 06/05/05 20:40
Quote: Posted 06/05/05 20:39:48 (GMT) -- pulse cap
Quote: Posted 06/05/05 20:07:03 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord I can't add, so someone else will have to do the math.
Skill points should add up as follows: 8*3 bonus at start 8*19 rogue 2*13 cleric 2*8 CoT =24+152+26+16 =218 Total skill points
Actually it's 9*4 at start. (Human gets 1 extra) So,
9*4 9*18 Rogue 3*13 Cleric 3*8 CoT =36+162+39+24
Total = 261. Allows for the following:
Spellcraft 40 Discipline 43 Hide 43 MS 43 Tumble 40 UMD 36 <- this is usually the max I'd take with CHA penalty of -1
With 16 left over. You're missing Concentration for casting in combat, but you could easily shuffle some around.
Grizz: You have 2 'floating' points which could go to CON or INT if you want. I defaulted to STR just for the extra weight allowance (a bad habit of mine, but I hate being encumbered with only a sandwich and a bottle of ale... ) You could even easily drop DEX to 17, as you suggested, which would free up 3 more points, but then you'd delay Epic Dodge, which I didn't want to do.
Steve: Good points, all. If you take Cleric to 15, you'll need another point of WIS, which you can take as a CoT bonus feat, so you'll lose both Armor Skin and either Epic Prowess or Epic Weapon Focus. You could opt to drop 2 Rogue levels, but then you lose an epic Rogue bonus feat as well as 1d6 sneak attack (admittedly Slippery Mind isn't a build-maker, but it's nice to have that extra chance at the Will save. Another possibility is to dump the extra points into Concentration and take Epic Skill Focus:Concentration to max it out - if it's available on the Rogue bonus feat list. If not, then max Concentration and leave one of the Rogue skills lower - perhaps UMD and then take the ESF bonus feat in that one). Probably the 2 Rogue would be easiest to drop though, since I'd rather have the EWF/EP and (to a lesser extent) Armor Skin.
The reason I took 13 CLC was just to get that last level in to max Spellcraft (It was either Cleric, Rogue, or CoT and Cleric was the best choice of the 3, IMHO). I hadn't really intended on the extra Cleric level - I was going to stop at 12 levels - but I just didn't see Rogue or CoT as better choices for that 40th left over level.
One thing I really like about the build is it's quite easy to adjust it to your personal taste and playing style. (You could adjust starting stats, feats, and even the levels of the classes by a couple without really affecting the overall integrity).
Anyway guys, thanks for the feedback. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Oops Sorry about that, I just looked at the INT
Quote: Posted 06/05/05 21:32:21 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din Steve: Good points, all. If you take Cleric to 15, you'll need another point of WIS, which you can take as a CoT bonus feat, so you'll lose both Armor Skin and either Epic Prowess or Epic Weapon Focus. You could opt to drop 2 Rogue levels, but then you lose an epic Rogue bonus feat as well as 1d6 sneak attack (admittedly Slippery Mind isn't a build-maker, but it's nice to have that extra chance at the Will save. Another possibility is to dump the extra points into Concentration and take Epic Skill Focus:Concentration to max it out - if it's available on the Rogue bonus feat list. If not, then max Concentration and leave one of the Rogue skills lower - perhaps UMD and then take the ESF bonus feat in that one). Probably the 2 Rogue would be easiest to drop though, since I'd rather have the EWF/EP and (to a lesser extent) Armor Skin.
Actually, assuming you wanted the full spell levels, you'd need 2 more points of wisdom. Your build already is short 1 point of wisdom, as it would get 7th level spells but you only have 16 wisdom. But I wasn't suggesting you pump your wisdom any higher. Getting Cleric to 15 gives you those bonuses I mentioned without needing to raise wisdom at all. So, you wouldn't need to lose epic prowess or epic weapon focus at all with what I was suggesting.
Actually, assuming you wanted the full spell levels, you'd need 2 more points of wisdom. Your build already is short 1 point of wisdom, as it would get 7th level spells but you only have 16 wisdom. But I wasn't suggesting you pump your wisdom any higher. Getting Cleric to 15 gives you those bonuses I mentioned without needing to raise wisdom at all. So, you wouldn't need to lose epic prowess or epic weapon focus at all with what I was suggesting.
Steve
Crikey, Steve, you're right! You've caught a glaring flaw that I'd completely overlooked (and this after going over the build several times!). I was sure I had enough WIS to utilize all the spell levels. Ack! Anyhow, your suggestion is that much better if one wants to leave the WIS at 16. Good catch.
Bah! Mayhap I'll have to rework the little sucker!
*edit* Anyone know for sure if you still get the spell slots at level 7 or not, even if you can't cast level 7 spells? If so, it would serve well for metamagicked spells...
*sigh* Back to the drawing board.
*2nd edit* Just checked - you don't get the slots. So, I'll rework this and be back with another version. Thanks for the input, all. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 06/06/05 01:36
Quote: Posted 06/05/05 00:50:08 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Human, Any non-evil
STR 12 DEX 18 CON 10 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 8
One option to get better stats would be to go halfling. Then you could go
STR 12 DEX 18 CON 10 INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 8
and have an extra 2 attribute points, which you could use to increase your WIS or your CON. Maybe,
STR 10 DEX 18 CON 12 INT 12 WIS 15 CHA 8
You would lose out on a feat (and daggers would pretty much be the only weapon you could finesse) but you would pick up a +1 to AC and AB and a +1 to all saves.
You could also stay human, drop your DEX to 16 and spread the 6 points around (CON +4, WIS +1 or CON +2, WIS +2) and end with the same DEX (as I think you can squeeze out two more great dexterity feats). Maybe:
STR 10 DEX 16 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 8
Also if you take 1 CoT level pre-epic, I suggest moving a rogue level epic, you can increase your fortitude save by 2 and your reflex save by 1.
You have a will save of 27 (35 Vs. Spells), I don't think you really need Slippery Mind. Take epic dodge as a rogue bonus feat, pushing crippling strike to your level 19 feat, this will free up one regular feat. If you decreased your DEX and raised your CON you could drop toughness at 39 to give you a second regular feat (or take toughness pre epic, inplace of one the other feats). You can now take two more great attribute feats (great DEX) and end up with the same final dexterity total. Lastly, I echo the drop two CoT levels and Armor Skin for two cleric levels, with the modifications I suggested you can easily get an 18 Wisdom.
Hopefully this helps. I love rogue/clerics (though I like to increase STR and create mega-damage builds), with just a few tweaks this could be a really good build. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
Edited By Mithdradates on 06/06/05 13:30
Okay, I went back to the drawing board, keeping in mind all the great feedback here and came up with something I think is much better. Now that I've seen Mith's post, I'll incorporate that suggestion too (the CoT level pre-epic) - it's only a minor change (but well worth it) and the rest of it was almost exactly what Mith suggested anyway. So, here it is, the Blessed Sneak Mk II:
21)Rogue 12: GRT DEX I (22) 22)Rogue 13: Defensive Roll 23)Cleric 9 24)Cleric 10: GRT DEX II (23)/ DEX (24) 25)Rogue 14 26)Rogue 15 27)Cleric 11: Epic Weapon Focus 28)Rogue 16: Epic Dodge/ DEX (25) 29)Cleric 12 30)CoT 2: GRT DEX III (26)/ GRT WIS I (17) 31)Cleric 13 32)Cleric 14: DEX (27) 33)CoT 3: GRT DEX IV (28) 34)CoT 4: GRT WIS II (18) 35)Rogue 17 36)Cleric 15: GRT DEX V (29)/ DEX (30) 37)Rogue 18 38)Rogue 19: Crippling Strike 39)CoT 5: GRT DEX IV (31) 40)C0T 6: Epic Prowess/ DEX (32)
*These could be anything of your choice.
Domains: I'd go with Strength and Trickery. Strength mainly for the Divine Power buff at levels 3 and 4 (as well as level 5 with the Silent Spell feat) Trickery gives the Invis line of spells, ending with the excellent Improved Invis.
Final AB dual-wielding and unbuffed is: +38.
Buffed with Divine Power, it rises to +43 and gives you 3 attacks at your highest AB, 2 at your second highest (+38). You'll get even better AB by stacking more Cleric buffs on top of that.
Hit Points: Not a strong suit with this character, but you have Endurance/Empowered End. to get yourself a few more.
Lots of slots, and lots of versatility with the couple of metamagic feats to fill up the spellbook with useful buffs.
Cast Ultravision and load up on Darkness spells to generate sneak attacks.
You get an excellent Darkfire boost on two weapons, Bull's STR to up your damage, all the good Cleric buffs to agument AB/damage, and a good number of spells per day.
Sneak attack is an acceptable 10d6.
Thanks to the different starting stats, I can get all the important skills maxed (or within a point or two), still get all the Cleric spells and take the all-important 15 levels, grab a few more HPs, still keep the DEX at 32, as well as retain almost all the feats I had originally. Thanks for the help and suggestions guys!
Thoughts?
*Edit* One thing to consider is moving the CLC 11 to level 25, so the next 3 levels look like this:
This will result in access to the level 6 spells/slots 2 levels earlier with no real adverse effects on the build (you delay 1d6 sneak attack by 1 level, but get your Tumble skill dump for the +1 AC a level sooner - worth the trade IMHO) _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 06/06/05 16:25
I love it when a plan comes together. Is this build similar to the one you PMed me a few weeks ago? _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
I love it when a plan comes together. Is this build similar to the one you PMed me a few weeks ago?
Thanks. No, I believe that was a FTR/Rogue/CoT build with inordinately high saves. (My memory's suspect though, so I could well have PMed you something in this vein as well)
BTW, posted the MK II version in its own thread. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Locked by request ....Mk II posted
13 is honestly a slightly odd cleric level to end at...The ideal level to stop at is 15, because that maxes out all of those "+1 every 3 levels, to a max of +5" spells. 15 levels of cleric would give you +2 to AB and damage (from Divine Favor and Greater Magic Weapon) and +1 to AC (Magical Vestment). The only question is which other class to drop. I would drop two levels of CoT. You'll lose Armor Skin, but your picking up +1 AC anyway from GMW). The other way you'll lose 1d6 sneak (Slippery Mind isn't much of a loss considering your will saves are very high for a rogue).
) You could even easily drop DEX to 17, as you suggested, which would free up 3 more points, but then you'd delay Epic Dodge, which I didn't want to do.
