With the 'new' Implosion spell after 1.66, I figured it was time to pull out a melee character that can survive it, as well as almost any other spell that allows a save... and it's a Dwarf (Style, baby, style!).
Favored of Moradin
Playable from level 1, PvM
Born and bred in the underground halls of the Dwarves and raised with the ringing of the anvil in his ears, the Favored of Moradin is schooled in the arts of war and lucky enough to survive even in battles against spellslingers. Among his bag of tricks are the abilities and benefits of the Rogue as well as the specialized focus of the Fighter. As a champion of his deity, he enjoys the benefits of an uncommonly high ability to shrug off the effects of magical attacks. With a decent strength and extensive training in his favorite weapon, he can present a challenge to any melee opponent, and woe to those undisciplined enough to be knocked down. In that situation he also has the ability to inflict even more pain.
Advantages: Good STR and AB with mundane gear. Decent AC with maxed Tumble. Astounding saves for a meleer. 5d6 sneak attack - in conjunction with Imp KD. Slippery Mind for a reroll on the 'weak' Will save (which is a whopping 43 vs spells, 37 base). Evasion to augment the 40 Reflex save (46 vs spells). UMD to provide versastility and a pseudo-magical ability.
Disadvantages: Unable to self-buff, so reliant on gear/party members. Although STR is good, it's not uber, so gear is highly relevant to the build. HPs are decent, but pushing the lower to medium range for a melee character.
In an environment with no immunity items and autofail on 1 turned off (as it should be), this guy would be a real pain in the backside for casters, since his saves are so high and can't be dispelled. A high level Bard Song would certainly reduce them, but even then he's still be able to make most saves.
The point of this build is the high saving throws (especially the Fort to survive Implosion - he could probably fare well against a Dev Critter, given access to even a bit of CON/Fort raising gear), while still maintaining the ability to be effective in melee.
For those Dev Crit afficionados, I've a Dev Crit version as well, which has the same start/end stats, but the Fort save is lower by 6. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 06/19/05 02:37
Quote: Posted 06/19/05 02:35:18 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Your saves are pretty close to the +20 limit, +19 for spells, +13 in general. Luckily the best spell DC for a wizard/sorc is 46, for a cleric with implosion 48 so you are well above that, though not immune to will saves unless you get your wisdom buffed a bit. Unfortunately mages still have a half-dozen spells that will screw you over without saving throws. This is still a good build and a fair survivor against spells, but it might have some trouble with melee combat. It should be a good scout in low magic worlds, it should be able to survive the initial onslaught of whatever it faces, long enough to escape and organize the rest of the party atleast. It should even do okay as a front line fighter. Nice build. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
Your saves are pretty close to the +20 limit, +19 for spells, +13 in general. Luckily the best spell DC for a wizard/sorc is 46, for a cleric with implosion 48 so you are well above that, though not immune to will saves unless you get your wisdom buffed a bit. Unfortunately mages still have a half-dozen spells that will screw you over without saving throws.
Yeah, but then, everything else other than a high level SR Monk is screwed against those spells. I was actually going to mention being that close to the cap as an advantage, since you don't have to use your item slots for save booster. You could fill those with something else. All you'd have to worry about is getting the Will up a bit (that's why I took Slippery Mind though. The Will save's high, so 2 shots at every Will save should be sufficient).
Quote: This is still a good build and a fair survivor against spells, but it might have some trouble with melee combat. It should be a good scout in low magic worlds, it should be able to survive the initial onslaught of whatever it faces, long enough to escape and organize the rest of the party atleast.
Yep. That's the drawback of not being able to buff himself at all (unless he gets some scrolls). Still, as you say, he'd probably be able to hold his own until help arrives. With decent gear, he could be quite solid.
Quote: It should even do okay as a front line fighter. Nice build.
Thanks. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
I like this build for a variety of reasons.
1. He still has a very decent AB, and is probably more noticeable in pre-epic. He still packs a punch and still gets a decent AC.
2. Although Cin said he can't buff himself, he actually can with UMD, and as a result can solo quite efficiently on his own.
3. His saves are solid enough that I don't really foresee him failing them unless 1 Autofail. His saves vs Magic actually do hit the cap. I think Cin forgot to include the Dwarven +2 bonus vs. ALL SPELLS(although maybe you did and i just can't see the math).
A few notes: I think his max hitpoints are actually 540.
When looking at the Character Record sheet, do the CoT save bonuses show up in the hard saving throw stats, or are those mental additions like Spellcraft? I know the feats are recorded in the hard stat... _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Quote: 1. He still has a very decent AB, and is probably more noticeable in pre-epic. He still packs a punch and still gets a decent AC.
With the other variant, you can get Dev Crit (DC 40), but the Fort save is lower by 6. That build would pack a bit more offensive punch.
Quote: 2. Although Cin said he can't buff himself, he actually can with UMD, and as a result can solo quite efficiently on his own.
True, but I generally don't include that in the calcs, as it's dependant on what you find. Chances are, however, that you'll be able to easily self buff.
Quote: 3. His saves are solid enough that I don't really foresee him failing them unless 1 Autofail. His saves vs Magic actually do hit the cap. I think Cin forgot to include the Dwarven +2 bonus vs. ALL SPELLS(although maybe you did and i just can't see the math).
Saves vs magic are 1 or 2 under the cap, actually. I remembered the racial bonus on this one, so it's included.
Quote: A few notes: I think his max hitpoints are actually 540.
You're right on that, Grizz. Hmmm, and you say your math skills are suspect?
Quote: When looking at the Character Record sheet, do the CoT save bonuses show up in the hard saving throw stats, or are those mental additions like Spellcraft? I know the feats are recorded in the hard stat...
The CoT bonuses are included on the character sheet display, just like the feats. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 06/19/05 14:41:28 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
With the other variant, you can get Dev Crit (DC 40), but the Fort save is lower by 6. That build would pack a bit more offensive punch.
Actually, it seems like you could do it with minimal loss to Fortitude. Drop 2 CoT levels and take 2 fighter levels in Epic. Also drop Epic Toughness, and there's your Overwhelming and Devastating. With only 2 loss of CoT and a meager 20 hitpoints.
Also, I see you have the racial bonus added, but are we sure that they count in the cap since it's a feat hardcoded into the race? _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Actually, it seems like you could do it with minimal loss to Fortitude. Drop 2 CoT levels and take 2 fighter levels in Epic. Also drop Epic Toughness, and there's your Overwhelming and Devastating. With only 2 loss of CoT and a meager 20 hitpoints.
I don't think that'll work out, but I'll look into it. Reason I think it won't work is the build sacrifices Grt Fort for Over Crit and Epic Toughness for Dev Crit. Replacing 2 CoT levels for 2 FTR is a wash, since you gain a FTR bonus feat, but lose a CoT bonus feat. You could drop 4 CoT for 4 FTR, thus gaining a feat, but you'd lose 2 on your saves from the CoT bonus. I'll see what I can come up with, though.
Quote: Also, I see you have the racial bonus added, but are we sure that they count in the cap since it's a feat hardcoded into the race?
I thought it probably wouldn't count towards the cap (since the Halfling's racial bonus to AB doesn't), but you know what happens when you assume anything with this game. Just to be sure, I decided to include that in the cap.
*EDIT*
Okay, here's what I came up with. Looks pretty good Grizz, and gets nice Fort save:
*Concentration is a class skill for FTR, so you could actually max it as well.
This version is interesting, but the other 2 saves are lower by 2. The extra FTR levels could be mixed in at different levels, but I just stuck them where I did for simplicity's sake. Feel free to suggest any tweaks you may see for it. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 06/19/05 16:42
very nice! In many ways, this guys is nothing more than a pure fighter, on som eserious save steroids. Pair him up with a bard/rdd/pm and the two should be able to lean out any dungeon of its foul stench of evil.
Quote: Posted 06/20/05 22:14:58 (GMT) -- aluka
very nice!
Thanks!
Quote: In many ways, this guys is nothing more than a pure fighter, on some serious save steroids.
Exactly what I was striving for.
Quote: Pair him up with a bard/rdd/pm and the two should be able to lean out any dungeon of its foul stench of evil.
Hmmm, that would be fun! _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
You definately blew my defending champ's saves ut of the water with his at 37 fortitude, 25 Reflex and 27 Will naked, and another 6 to each with maxed out CHA items. I'm just trying to run some numbers in my head and curious how you compare this build to a DR build with almost double the life and 20+/- DR. _________________ Come visit the Epic Builders Guild for all the character info you could ever want or need: Click Here
