PvM and PvP build, playable from around 12-16 and up. Can be difficult at the lowest levels.
Black Widow is a beautiful lady, whos song can inspire others to greatness, or curse her opponents with weakness and despair. She can sing her alluring song, and make the naive heroes to come close enough for her to suck their lives aout with her undead hand. Those who can see through her beauty and song, and those to seasoned to fall for it, will still be faced with a near untouchable foe. -------------------
This is the first time I have ever made a bard build, and first time for PaleMaster to. It is surely flawed, but I have did both at the same time, so here it is. The idea is some kind of Dark Siren rp wise, a charming and pleasant lady, until she can use her death touch. (which is easily saved against, I think.) She has a few good spells to boost her, and both bard- and cursesong. Being born a Half Dragon and later partly entering the undead realm to, she is nigh untouchable by any weapon wielders.
AC:44 --AC:57 buffed, included haste, dex+4(Cats grace) and song. hp:324
rapier 39/34/29 1-6+4(15-20/x2) rapier+4(greater magic wep), + buffs and song and str +4(Bull's strength) 49/44/39 1-6+10+3 blunt +2 pierce(15-20/x2)
Fort:21 Ref:30 Will:23 and +8 more vs spells on all.
Concentration 43 Discipline 33 Lore 8 to become RDD Perform 21 for best lvl 14 bard song Spellcraft 37 Taunt 43 Tumble 40 UMD 43
As you see, not to good AB and damage. Very good ac, and if you choose epic mage armor at lvl 39, you can have a naked ac of 77, imagine with some equipment. Since you wont be using shield, not while casting at least, you might switch to a greatweapon to increase damage, and even spear to save a feat. You can also drop Epic prowess for great dex, and take two epic spells at lvl 39, perhaps epic ruin. I also thought of the same build strength wise. Start with 14/14 str/dex an duse strength were dex is listed. this will lose you 8 ac, but it will end up getting 36 strength, raising AB by three and damage alot, especially with a two hander. She cant use lvl 6 bard spells tho. So people, please tell me what you think.
Edited By griphook on 07/28/05 14:37
Nice spin on the old classic. One big thing though; this is a dexer but: 1) Will be subject to flatfootedness in mobs. 2) No epic dodge 3) As you said, ab will be low - you will rely on 20's to hit in PvP [and most of the bosses depending on world]; depending on equipment vs weapon selection. Relying on 20's is ok maybe, BUT you will also get hit by the same rate - and getting swamped will be much easier (and see pt 1 for other drawbacks to getting mobbed)
I know it's a naked build achieving high ac - thats pretty cool, but have you considered changing PaleMaster for ShadowDancer instead? 1) Great Dex as a bonus feat. 2) HiPS 3) Shadow Evade - at sd10, this is +4ac [lasts short time BUT can be stacked]. 4) Most of the 'good' rogue feats - free. 5) Just 10 levels will give you prerequisits for Epic Dodge [feat wise anyway].
Sacrafices about 12ac though; this can be got temporarily from the stacked shadow evade.
Edited By Khandahr on 07/07/05 13:55
Quote: Posted 07/07/05 13:53:03 (GMT) -- Khandahr
1) Great Dex as a bonus feat.
Last I checked, they don't get great dex as a bonus feat.
Quote: 4) Most of the 'good' rogue feats - free.
The Bard already gives him the best of skill sets. The SD won't add anything.
Quote: 5) Just 10 levels will give you prerequisits for Epic Dodge [feat wise anyway].
I agree with this. Epic Dodge is nearly a must for a Dex build that has issues doing damage. Coupled with the Bard's Improved Invis, should be quite effective.
Another possibility would be to consider a Bard/SD/Palemaster. An epic dodging immune to crits and sneaks makes for a fearsome defensive combo. However, you lose any chance of doing damage by dropping your RDD. A tough act to balance. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Last I checked, they don't get great dex as a bonus feat.
Aye, wrong on that one. D'oh!
Quote:
Quote: 4) Most of the 'good' rogue feats - free.
The Bard already gives him the best of skill sets. The SD won't add anything.
You mebbe thinking of skills but I'm thinking of feats, Griz : 1) Improved Evasion 2) Defensive Roll 3) Slippery Mind 4) Uncanny dodge 5) Can't bring any more immediately to mind.. at work so no grimior
Might not be much.. but 1,2,3 are the main good 'Rogue' feats imho for survival.
Edited By Khandahr on 07/07/05 14:39
Quote: Posted 07/07/05 14:35:43 (GMT) -- Khandahr
You mebbe thinking of skills but I'm thinking of feats, Griz : 1) Improved Evasion 2) Defensive Roll 3) Slippery Mind 4) Darkvision 5) Uncanny dodge 6) Can't bring any more immediately to mind.. at work so no grimior
Might not be much.. but 1,2,3 are the main good 'Rogue' feats imho for survival.
My bad. I was thinking skills. Yes, SD provides all the defensive capabilites of the Rogue in a brief 10 levels. 17Bard/RDD10/13SD. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
You mebbe thinking of skills but I'm thinking of feats, Griz : 1) Improved Evasion 2) Defensive Roll 3) Slippery Mind 4) Darkvision 5) Uncanny dodge 6) Can't bring any more immediately to mind.. at work so no grimior
Might not be much.. but 1,2,3 are the main good 'Rogue' feats imho for survival.
My bad. I was thinking skills. Yes, SD provides all the defensive capabilites of the Rogue in a brief 10 levels. 17Bard/RDD10/13SD.
Or what about Bard 20/RDD 10/SD 10? You could get Lasting Inspiration that way. _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Yeh; I'd go more the 20B/10Rdd/10Sd route there. You DO drop some ac... but in return you get one heck of a vicious fighter who can go into 'overdrive' and just go 'poof' in the middle of battle to reappear behind your enemy to catch them flatfooted.
Perform: needs to be high. Very high; and always buff up your CHA to as far as you can before singing. If you do the bard song before curse song; you will end up with one or two points extra on your curse if memory serves.
Quote: Posted 07/08/05 08:05:28 (GMT) -- Khandahr
Yeh; I'd go more the 20B/10Rdd/10Sd route there. You DO drop some ac... but in return you get one heck of a vicious fighter who can go into 'overdrive' and just go 'poof' in the middle of battle to reappear behind your enemy to catch them flatfooted.
Perform: needs to be high. Very high; and always buff up your CHA to as far as you can before singing. If you do the bard song before curse song; you will end up with one or two points extra on your curse if memory serves.
Actually, a 20 Bard/Curse Song only requires 50 Perform, which you can easily get by either (assuming 16 CHA) 37 Perform and Epic Skill Focus, or 43 Perform, Skill Focus, and an item or spell with +2 CHA (or item with +1 Perform). That way you get level 20 Bard Song and level 20 Curse Song. I find level 22 Bard/Curse song fairly easy to ge the Perform requirements for. After that, it starts getting difficult. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
sweet. For some reason; I always saw the performance requirement for 16 and above as much higher than that .
Thanks for the input, fella's. One thing, how can swamping the character make her subject to flatfootedness? AFAIK only a sneak attack does that, right?. Not purely a mass of enemies. Even then only the dex part of the ac will be lost, which equals 10 unbuffed. More of the buffed ac.
And I thought of the SD way, mainly because of Epic dodge, and perhaps HIPS, which requires change of skills. If you read the initial post, you will see that Palemaster is essential in this build..... So it would become Bard/SD/PaleM. I have never built bard or Palemaster before, and didn't even know of something called lasting inspiration.
If I take my strength path as written in initial post(strength will end up 36 natural), my AB will become 42 unbuffed, which is in line with many builds here. Tho still not to good, IMO. And even when someone rolls 20's on this build, it still has concealment to beat(and EPIC WARDING). One must have elemental damage that can be removed, with a holy sword(from UMD) or dispelling scrolls/spells. Or defended against with resist elements etc.
Having built a few SC5 characters so far (with much guidance from Syrath's builds); believe me, concealment is not something to get excited about if you can't cut the dice on full ac in the first place. From observation using such a build with high ac (over 70 naked vs a mob with an ab over 60+); in a mob of 3, at best you tend to get at least three successful hits every two round (not natural 20's either, unless you have pushed your ac superhigh; out of range of ab). You must either absorb or fend off with ac. If you are flanked/flatfooted you will drop your ac by 10 [and if you have even a chance of getting hit, this will spell trouble for you]. Epic dodge lowers this by another 1; and retaining your good ac (or DR) reduces the other two.
In a way, I see self conceal as protection from natural 20's for the mob; and epic dodge as natural 20 protection from your immediate opponent. Basically since; if your ac is no good, you will get hit badly; 50% conceal + epic dodge or not.
PS: Syrath don't get too upset, in case ye see this part . I do prefer sc5 builds still.. I just build them with decent ac as well
Edited By Khandahr on 07/08/05 16:16
Quote: Posted 07/08/05 16:15:11 (GMT) -- Khandahr
Having built a few SC5 characters so far (with much guidance from Syrath's builds); believe me, concealment is not something to get excited about if you can't cut the dice on full ac in the first place. From observation using such a build with high ac (over 70 naked vs a mob with an ab over 60+); in a mob of 3, at best you tend to get at least three successful hits every two round (not natural 20's either, unless you have pushed your ac superhigh; out of range of ab). You must either absorb or fend off with ac. If you are flanked/flatfooted you will drop your ac by 10 [and if you have even a chance of getting hit, this will spell trouble for you]. Epic dodge lowers this by another 1; and retaining your good ac (or DR) reduces the other two.
If she get swamped by more than 1 opponent with over 60 AB, they will be so tough I don't believe she would stand a chance no matter the build. And if they have equipment to help, so will she. Again, how can she be flanked in NwN, only rogues/assassin's can do that??? So ac will be max else. and if someone has 60+ AB, remember, more items boost AC so it will be at least close to 20's to hit her still.
Quote: In a way, I see self conceal as protection from natural 20's for the mob; and epic dodge as natural 20 protection from your immediate opponent. Basically since; if your ac is no good, you will get hit badly; 50% conceal + epic dodge or not.
If this answer was to me, AC is this build's main strength. It is high. And very much so.
Your ac is high mate . Just forestalling syrath posting on my SC5 comment .
On the ab/ac thing: Yes, you would be ribboned by 60ab but you're hopefully not going to be naked. This build is all about ac; and items will push you FAR above the average, so that is no problem. Natural 20's are always a problem in mobs; as are flatfooted luckyshots I find - so the sc5 and epic dodge prevent that admirably.
Still; a good concept and very strong end result.
Quote: Posted 07/07/05 13:53:03 (GMT) -- Khandahr 1) Will be subject to flatfootedness in mobs.
Quote: Posted 07/08/05 15:53:44 (GMT) -- Grimnir77 Thanks for the input, fella's. One thing, how can swamping the character make her subject to flatfootedness? AFAIK only a sneak attack does that, right?. Not purely a mass of enemies. Even then only the dex part of the ac will be lost, which equals 10 unbuffed. More of the buffed ac.
From the Grimoire:
Quote: A character is considered to be flat-footed only when they:
are performing a non-combat task
are in ready mode
move outside of the combat radius
So if this is right, you would indeed keep the dex bonus to ac, losing only dodge ac when fighting mobs. I'm guessing the confusion arises because you are also subject to sneak attacks from any enemy you are not attacking. The Grimoire's description of sneak attack, however, contains the following:
Quote: Whenever a character makes a successful attack against an opponent who is flat-footed, cannot see them, or who is in combat with someone else, the character’s blow delivers extra damage.
So, sneak attacks and loss of dodge ac when fighting mobs, but you keep dex bonus.
:
sweet. For some reason; I always saw the performance requirement for 16 and above as much higher than that 
Your ac is high mate