The GrimBlade………Playable 1-40 PvM Fighter14/Wizard12/Assassin14
It was a golden day in the world, and it seemed to the Minstrel that Nature herself was singing for joy. Leaves of trees shook with laughter, and the songs of birds filled the air. He stepped light-heartedly up ahead of his men, trying to compose a new poem for his mistress in Scornubel.
"Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and I...I took the one less trav---ach!" and the Bardmaster was dead ere he his body hit the earth. A black-bearded Dwarf kneeled over his lifeless form and wiped the steaming blood from the short blades he held in each hand. "And let me guess," he whispered in a voice of gravel, "That has made all the difference? Never take the Road less travelled, Master Bard. And never talk badly of my Lord King." He pulled a strange-looking Ring from the dead man's finger. The Dwarf suddenly stopped, pulled the cowl from his head and looked westward down the road from which the Minstrel Lord had come. He could hear the sound of horses and raised voices. "Hmmm, looks like back-up is on the way." He pulled his cloak back over his head and disappeared into the shadows of the trees.
Three galloping riders approached and pulled up short on sight of the Bard's lifeless body. The lead rider dismounted quickly and scrambled to the side of his dead master.
"My good Lord!" He grimaced when he saw the extent of the wounds. "Ambush! Draw your weapons, men! They might still be--"
But it was too late. A stygian darkness fell about them, and they could not even see their hands in front of their face. In the next instant, all they knew was the cold bite of steel slipping in and out of their backs and kidneys, and then they knew no more. ___________
In addition to being a formidable melee fighter, this black-hearted dwarf has an edge: 7d6sneak attack, potential instant death with a Death Attack, gains Concealment from Ghostly Visage, and Improved Invisbility from both his Assassin class, and from his Wizard spells. Further, he can cast Greater Stoneskin (20/+5 DR) or Ethereal Visage(25% Concealment, 20/+3 DR, Immune to 1-2nd lvl spells), wrap an opponent in Bigby's Interposing Hand, cloak the area in Darkness, and plunge in with Ultravision and keened and flaming shortswords and carefully create slits in his opponents bellies and gently let their entrails fall to the floor. He can further buff himself with empowered, extended Bull's Strength's, Fox's Cunning, and Cat's Grace, for further AB, damage, AC, and Death Attack DC. At home on the battlefield waging war in Full Plate, Sword and shield, or quietly scaling a tower to fulfill a "contract," or stepping through the shadows of the deep dungeons of the world with a blade in each hand, the GrimBlade is extremely versatile. He can sabotage the field of battle with Traps, and use magical items restricted to other classes or races to further provide him with an edge. The GrimBlade has many weapons at his disposal, and he is highly sought after by those who need Spymasters in their court, or who need the heads of enemies on a plate.
The rationale behind using Assassin over Rogue is to A., gain the neat concealment features, B. avoid XP Penalties, and C., use the Assassin Class almost as a substitute for Rogue. In hindsight, my Dwarven Fighter14/Wizard13/Rogue13(The Professional) is actually a better build, but this one isn’t too far off. Also, when I make a build with Assassin, I really don’t consider his Death Attack DC a priority, unless I’m making an “Assassin”. Death Attack, IMO, is just a plus, and is like getting a really weak Dev Crit for free. If you look at it from that respect, it’s worth it. I really think Assassin Lvl 9 is a good investment for what you get in return: UMD, Tumble, Darkness, Invis, Improved Invis, 5d6Snea, Uncanny Dodge, etc. Not too bad. Rogue beats in skill points, but that’s it. Rogue doesn’t turn the tide of battle until about level 13. That’s when the balance shifts. Anyways, just thought I’d share an Assassinesque build with the community, even though it’s fairly weak in that “sense” of the word. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 10/12/07 16:11
Grizz, once again a nice little back story to this character. A decent build too. One thing of note, you can't cast Keen Edge on Short Swords, as they're piercing weapons. Bummer, but I've been bitten by that particular snake before myself. Nice work as usual. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 07/10/05 01:52:21 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Grizz, once again a nice little back story to this character. A decent build too. One thing of note, you can't cast Keen Edge on Short Swords, as they're piercing weapons. Bummer, but I've been bitten by that particular snake before myself. Nice work as usual.
Thanks for your help, Cin. Handaxes seem like a better choice in retrospect, but I will probably go to my grave in my belief that shortswords do slashing or piercing damage. Bloody bastards. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Quote: Posted 07/10/05 01:52:21 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Grizz, once again a nice little back story to this character. A decent build too. One thing of note, you can't cast Keen Edge on Short Swords, as they're piercing weapons. Bummer, but I've been bitten by that particular snake before myself. Nice work as usual.
Thanks for your help, Cin. Handaxes seem like a better choice in retrospect, but I will probably go to my grave in my belief that shortswords do slashing or piercing damage.
No problem.
Quote: Bloody bastards.
Now, they do slashing damage! _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Hi Grizz,
Another very nice build!!!! I like the use of assassin in this build. I looked and don't see, " The Proffessional"' posted on here. Can you post it as well? I'm curious to compare the two since you said the Proffessional is better.
Thanks, Mano _________________ A Man of War who treads the world's roads alone, as I do, must be quick. Long ago I learned to strike swiftly and without scruple. I trouble no man without cause, but one who attacks me had best resolve himself to die!
Nice build Grizz and nice preamble
Did you consider a dex-based version with Epic Dodge? How do you think that would compare?
Thanks, Kaliban _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Edited By Kaliban99 on 07/10/05 06:07
I like the build on the whole, I pretty much likes any caster/melee combo , one thing though:
Despite the name, a successful Death Attack paralyzes the victim rather than killing it (can't find the duration though). Of course this is effectivly a death warrant in most situations, but it's not instant death.
I do realise, especially as you explicitly stated it, that you merely consider this a "bonus", but I just wanted to clarify what that bonus is.
Quote: Posted 07/10/05 20:23:47 (GMT) -- pulse cap
I like the build on the whole, I pretty much likes any caster/melee combo , one thing though:
Despite the name, a successful Death Attack paralyzes the victim rather than killing it (can't find the duration though). Of course this is effectivly a death warrant in most situations, but it's not instant death.
I do realise, especially as you explicitly stated it, that you merely consider this a "bonus", but I just wanted to clarify what that bonus is.
I believe Grizz was implying that it would be instant death because the Assassin would just carve him up once the DA lands, not that the DA actually kills the victim. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 07/10/05 20:38:52 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
I believe Grizz was implying that it would be instant death because the Assassin would just carve him up once the DA lands, not that the DA actually kills the victim.
Death Attack, IMO, is just a plus, and is like getting a really weak Dev Crit for free.
made me doubt it enough to make my previous post.
Sorry if it was all useless
Edited By pulse cap on 07/10/05 21:08
Quote: Posted 07/10/05 21:07:32 (GMT) -- pulse cap
Quote: Posted 07/10/05 20:38:52 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
I believe Grizz was implying that it would be instant death because the Assassin would just carve him up once the DA lands, not that the DA actually kills the victim.
Death Attack, IMO, is just a plus, and is like getting a really weak Dev Crit for free.
made me doubt it enough to make my previous post.
Sorry if it was all useless
Not at all useless. You cleared it up for anyone else reading it that may have been confused by it. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Did you consider a dex-based version with Epic Dodge? How do you think that would compare?
I think a dex-based version would be a completely different character. In pursuing that line, one would have to either give up the caster class or the melee class in order to access the Def Roll and Impr Evas feats. Caster would probably go, so then you would wind up with a Ftr/Rogue/Assn, or a Ftr/SD/Assn or, if just going for SC feats, a Ftr/Monk/Assn. In situations where sneak/death attack isn't working, the dex-based would have more difficulty due to finding damage output. But also, any such version would likely have more skill points, a better skill set, and could probably lay some decent traps and have a higher UMD skill. There are still points left over in the above build to still have about a 30UMD.
If I were to make a dex-based version, I would go with a Ftr12/Rogue19/Assn9, and merely use the Assn to gain Concealment without losing Sneak Attack progression.
Quote: Posted 07/10/05 20:23:47 (GMT) -- pulse cap
Despite the name, a successful Death Attack paralyzes the victim rather than killing it (can't find the duration though). Of course this is effectivly a death warrant in most situations, but it's not instant death.
I do realise, especially as you explicitly stated it, that you merely consider this a "bonus", but I just wanted to clarify what that bonus is.
Thanks for clearing that up. I admit I did make that a little fuzzy. As you and Cin both stated, if he manages to land a successful DA, it pretty much is over for the victim at that point, as he'll be landing some very devastating blows. The DC for his DA at Lvl20 will be 17, and with an empowered Fox's Cunning and/or a modest Int-enhancing item, could be as high as 23. Not great, but just enough that failure is possible on critters in a PvM environment. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Edited By grizzled_dwarflord on 07/11/05 11:35
A thought along the lines of the dexy route. Since Assn will have a potentially high enough umd to cast any scroll _anyway_; have you considered changing wiz12/assn14 to be SD10/Assn 16? You will get all prerequisite feats free (dodge+mobility is required for SD, other stats all similar to assn). You will also get a shadow daze; shadow evade (which can stack if cast in succession, for +12 dodge ac bonus). Your end bab will be a bit better too maybe? HiPS for a really smooth dissapearing trick...
Just throwing some ideas; prolly all faulty tho.
Edited By Khandahr on 07/11/05 12:02
Quote: Posted 07/11/05 12:01:17 (GMT) -- Khandahr
A thought along the lines of the dexy route. Since Assn will have a potentially high enough umd to cast any scroll _anyway_; have you considered changing wiz12/assn14 to be SD10/Assn 16? You will get all prerequisite feats free (dodge+mobility is required for SD, other stats all similar to assn). You will also get a shadow daze; shadow evade (which can stack if cast in succession, for +12 dodge ac bonus). Your end bab will be a bit better too maybe? HiPS for a really smooth dissapearing trick...
Just throwing some ideas; prolly all faulty tho.
No, not at all faulty. In fact, there probably are a few Epic builds already like that. Going Dex route would require a completely different build, though. Sticking with fighter still means cross-classing skills to meet prereqs. Assn won't open up until Lvl 14, at which point you can pick up your needed skills for SD to access Tumble. Not to mention taking two more feats (not a big deal in pre-epic ftr heavy build). It would, in the end, achieve a slightly better AB and AC, but loses much of the versatility that a Ftr/Wiz/Assn build can offer. It also requires an odd level ending. Perhaps a 16/10/14 would be most effective.
In the end, I like the idea of a strength-based, casting Assassin over a dexy-non-casting one. But again, I think the dexy-one is different enough to warrant its own build. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
For those of you interested in a DEX version, I just posted The Hatchet (inspired by the Grimblade and the ensuing discussion). It uses the same classes as the Grimblade, but slightly different levels. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Also, when I make a build with Assassin, I really don’t consider his Death Attack DC a priority, unless I’m making an “Assassin”. Death Attack, IMO, is just a plus, and is like getting a really weak Dev Crit for free.
I agree that in this particular build, Death Attack isn't a priority, but is the Death attack really weaker than Dev Crit? The effect certainly is, paralysis vs. death, but when you compare DCs it doesn't seem to be weaker. Also, the paralysis effect lasts so long that it is certain death for the one effected.
Dev Crit DC = 10 + (Character level/2) + STR modifier. This number is a maximum of 43 for a half-orc character. A half-orc RDD could get it to 47.
Death Attack DC = 10 + Assassin levels + INT modifier. Potentially, this number is 52 on a non-orc character and 53 on a RDD character.
The only consideration weighing in favor of Dev Crit, I suppose, is that probably the factors that are modifying the DC are also modifying the orignal to hit roll, whereas with Death Attack, they are not.
I just built a character with a Death Attack DC of 45 (30 levels of Assassin and a 20 INT) who also had an AB of 39, 40 aganst larger creatures.
On the other hand, assassins tend to attack from hiding which means opponents potentially do not have their DEX modifier to their AC.
I wonder if anyone has analized this.
That's an interesting thought. I'll just point out that your build probably ends up with the highest practical DC for the Death Attack (not including gear/buffs). Any more points into INT and you'll start nerfing your AB to the point you can't hit anything anyway.
Which puts the DC of Dev Crit and DA at roughly equal (give or take 2 or 3 points). Another major aspect to take into account here is the fact that DA will fire only on the first flurry of the combat, so you've really only a small window in the combat for your opponent to fail the save. Dev Crit, however, will potentially fire at least once (and probably several times) per round.
It's this last fact which I think makes Dev Crit the more powerful ability. Eventually, in almost every combat, your opponent is going to fail that Fort save and die from Dev Crit. The DA doesn't have that 'spam every round' aspect to it.
It would be interesting to see someone's analysis on it, were someone to decide to do that. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
One thing you missed about the difference between death attack and devastating critical is that the only way to defend yourself from devastating critical is a high fortitude save or immunity to critical hits. On the other hand, freedom of movement, immunity to paralysis or immunity to sneak attack will also block death attack nicely. When I took my assassin builds through my test/leveling module I was surprised at just how common immunity to paralysis is among enemies. It really limits the use of that ability.
On the topic of the build,
Nice preamble to the build Grizz, you might want to have your build specialize in Illusion instead of going as a generalist. You might also want to drop improved critical for improved knockdown. Your AB isn't that high for beating discipline checks, but the sneak attacks from knockdown will probably net you more damage than the extra critical hits from improved critical. Just a couple of thoughts. Nice jack of all trades build. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
I am considering this combo but in a most unique way. A gnome using an xbow (there are 2 good xbows on my PW) with 4 Fighter, 25 Wizard, and 11 assasin and go for the high death attack DC pumping int all the way. Would make a great party buffer and with a very effective ranged death Attack--could be very fun.
Thoughts?
BTW: Grizz, dont mean to steal your thread, but didnt want to build this before hand without some feedback first.
Also, another question bugging me? Is there any use in taking spell focus in any other school but evocation and necromancy?
, one thing though: