21)FTR10: Epic Weapon Focus/Epic Weapon Specialization 22)Bard8 23)FTR11 24)FTR12: GRT STR I(22)/ Epic Prowess/ CHA (14) 25)PM5 26)PM6 27)Bard9: GRT STR II (23) 28)PM7: CHA (15) 29)PM8 30)PM9: GRT STR III (24) 31)PM10 32)Bard10: STR (25) 33)PM11: GRT STR IV (26) 34)PM12 35)PM13: Epic Energy Resistance:Acid 36)PM14: GRT STR V (27)/ STR (28) 37)Bard11 38)PM15 39)PM16: GRT STR VI (29)/ Epic Warding 40)Bard12: STR (30)
AB with mundane weapon of Choice: +40. Using only the buffs available to him, he could raise it to +47 or +48, depending on the Bull's roll (Bull's, GMW, Bard Song).
This guy's got a decent melee presence and immunity to crits. Epic Warding is a nice bonus in emergency situations and the AC boost from the PM levels doesn't hurt either.
His saves are in the 'okay' category, but vs spells he should do alright. HPs are low, which is a concern, so he should be seeking ways to boost it. An option is to start with 16 CON and 12 INT and drop Taunt. You'd also have to drop IKD and find something to replace it. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Edited By griphook on 07/14/05 23:57
Why dwarf? You are increasing your charisma with two anyways, so why not take human, gain an extra feat, and raise your constitution with two instead? Am I missing something?
I like Dwarfs. Also, there's the +2 on saves vs spells, and the various other class bonuses. You can certainly go with Human with this build, for the reasons you mentioned (and also end up with 43 more skill points). But, like I said, I like Dwarfs. _________________ Where I'm playing now: World of Greyhawk.
This is actually a pretty slick build, all things considered. PM immunities and epic warding are good mojo.
Dwarf is a fine choice due to their racial abilities and favored class - fighter. It's hard to go "wrong" with human in NWN, but dwarves are frequently a better choice.
Considered trying COT instead of fighter for saves, Cin? (Yeah, I'm a COT-o-phile). Or maybe blackguard and charisma? I'd guess, without looking, that blackguard's been done with PM for theme reasons more than a few times however. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Bad To The Bone / Bard5 /PM19/ Blackguard16 by Emrill Paragon Of Vice /Bard 16/Blackguard 8/PM 16 by FinneousPJ Undead Fiend /Bard 8/PM 16Blackguard 16 by Kaliban99 Champion of Orcus /Bard 5/Palemaster 16/Blackguard 19 by KingHarbromm Undead Fencer V 2 /Bard 5/PM 16/ BGuard 19 by Kreestopearq
Considered trying COT instead of fighter for saves, Cin? (Yeah, I'm a COT-o-phile). Or maybe blackguard and charisma? I'd guess, without looking, that blackguard's been done with PM for theme reasons more than a few times however.
It was more a thematic thing, but I'm a fan of the CoT prestige class as well. However, if you replace the FTR levels with CoT in this particular build, you'll lose 2 feats (FTR level 1 and level 12) _________________ Where I'm playing now: World of Greyhawk.
Quote: Posted 05/23/06 22:08:03 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din It was more a thematic thing, but I'm a fan of the CoT prestige class as well. However, if you replace the FTR levels with CoT in this particular build, you'll lose 2 feats (FTR level 1 and level 12)
That seems to work out though - as a COT you wouldn't qualify for weapon specialization/epic weapon specialization anyway. I'd see it as a tradeoff - EWS for +5 to saves and some divine feats. Might be attractive in some environments, though the PM immunities do take a lot of pressure off your Fort and especially Will saves. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Besides, CoT can't get WS, only EWS if you got WS beforehand with Fighter.
Dwarf is a great race (also because Dwarven Defender is my favorite class, and you need to be dwarf), but one of the general benefits is exchange CHA for CON, not precisely working here.
I would change DEX to 8 to increase CON to 16, but that's just me, you can buff with Cat's Grace to get the 12 and use Heavy armor, he looks like a melee to me, not high DEX enough to not use heavy, just take it off for buffing (might not work with Epic Warding right at the spot where you need it though...). Net +40 HP, and buffed DEX with Heavy armor no AC lost, probably one reflex save, depending on the Cat's Grace roll and on capping DEX.
EDIT:
Quote: His saves are in the 'okay' category, but vs spells he should do alright. HPs are low, which is a concern, so he should be seeking ways to boost it. An option is to start with 16 CON and 12 INT and drop Taunt. You'd also have to drop IKD and find something to replace it.
Don't think on dropping INT Cinnabar Din, you'd lose Improved Knockdown, and hell that's a good feat.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 05/23/06 22:31
Sweet build. I love bards.
I'm actually playing a Bard 16 / CoT 8 / PM 16 on CWL right now that's very similar to this build, and I have one piece of commentary: Epic Mage Armor is better than Epic Warding. With 16 levels of PM, you're looking at a duration for EW of just over a minute and a half. Maybe good if you're up against another melee fighter, but your AC is so high that fights like that are going to last a very long time anyway...by which time, EW will have run out. Against mobs, it will run out after one encounter, and I don't think you want to rest and rebuff between every fight.
EMA, on the other hand, depending on the magic level of the server, will get you anywhere from +17 (doesn't stack with 3 of regular Mage Armor) to +5 AC (unless you're on some crazy server where you can max your dodge bonus, which I haven't been able to, even with +6 items and level 16 bard song). That's a big jump, and it will last 16 game hours, which is basically forever, until you rest.
Also, there are enough good 1 round/level Bard buffs that I'd like to see Extend Spell somewhere in the build...perhaps at the expense of Extra Music; since you don't have Curse Song, I think 12 uses per day ought to be sufficient.
Finally, don't dismiss this sort of build's PvP potential. The version I'm playing, after using Curse Song and Taunt, has AB comparable to pure melee builds, but about 10-15 higher AC. The only people my level who beat me with any consistency at all are mages with huge damage return shields.
*edit* Oh, and I don't think you can take metamagic feats on fighter levels, even if you meet the prereqs, so unless I'm wrong, you should reshuffle the leveling order so you take bard at level 9 and get Still Spell as written.
Edited By Nimueh_Leafbow on 05/24/06 01:01
Good points all.
Thax: I like IKD, but it's not the be-all-end-all. KD can serve juust as well in many situations.
Nimueh: you can take metamagic feats on FTR levels as long as you have enough levels in a spellcasting class as well to support them.
Xylo: good point on the WS/EWS feats. Bearing that in mind, you definitely break even (or better) by taking CoT instead. _________________ Where I'm playing now: World of Greyhawk.
Heh, be-all-end-all... but I don't find a fitting feat in exchange... someone could like Power Attack/Cleave instead of IKD and maybe a saves feat, lingering song or extra music... but I prefer feats as they are.
About my point in DEX.... really, what kind of armor you're using for him? because just that I think it's heavy doesn't makes it happen... fighter gives you heavy armor and shield proficiencies, so AC should be good.
Cinn: U know, you'd get much better stats, especially as a bard if you were human and not dwarf (that -2 hurts; need to boost it, which you do anyway, but those are two feats that could be opened i.e., epic will, epic fort . . . or, . . . list is endless; . . . ; also, even though PM gets him extra spells per se after PM 10, wouldn't his low charisma thwart this? I may be off but, as a bard, cha 13 (adj. for dwarf), spells are limited, such that you aren't getting the full benefit of those extra PM levels as it relates to bard spells, due to the CHA issue (yes -- no???)suppose, if so, that you could always fill slots with metamagic, which would be alright.
Hmmm: A dwarven bard - Long overdue. and proving once again, that it's nurture over nature - If a dwarf wants to grow up to be a bard, well, who's gonna tell 'em different in the realm, a land of equal opportunity after all (I doubt any will say different since, with AB base 26, +40 (unbuff) (that's okay for a PM), when he's got that undead buddy, and that killer arm of his to back 'em) that having been said, might consider taking curse song instead of extra music; but at bard 11, not much effect either way . . .just a thought; and a toss up.
Aye, a toast of 'me ale to the dwarven bard; come ye one, and come ye all, gather ye 'round quickly now; 'cause deathless skald's got a tale and a song to sing! Three cheers for Deathless Skald! And oh what a tale he'll surely tell . . . that, in itself, is a story!
great for RP, and a neat build; cool!
Tyr
Edited By Robert Tyr on 05/24/06 05:28
Quote: Posted 05/24/06 05:00:31 (GMT) -- Robert Tyr
Cinn: U know, you'd get much better stats, especially as a bard if you were human and not dwarf (that -2 hurts; need to boost it, which you do anyway, but those are two feats that could be opened i.e., epic will, epic fort . . . or, . . . list is endless; . . . ; also, even though PM gets him extra spells per se after PM 10, wouldn't his low charisma thwart this? I may be off but, as a bard, cha 13 (adj. for dwarf), spells are limited, such that you aren't getting the full benefit of those extra PM levels as it relates to bard spells, due to the CHA issue (yes -- no???)suppose, if so, that you could always fill slots with metamagic, which would be alright.
PMs get extra spells per day, not extra spells known. What this means is that a bard or sorcerer who becomes a pale master will only have the known spells of a level X bard or sorcerer. A wizard, since he can scribe scrolls, can learn spells as level X wizard plus level Y/2 pale master.
In this specific instance it means that the Deathless Skald has the known spells of a level 12 bard, but the spells per day of a level 17 bard (that means you have level 5 and 6 spell slots, but don't know any level 5 or 6 spells to cast with them).
Raising your cha over 14 in this case isn't helpful, actually, unless the deal with bard PMs and known spells has been changed. I'm not sure why the Skald is going to Cha 15. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Interesting feedback that has come on this build. As to the Human vs Dwarf, see my first response: I know Human has advantages, but I like Dwarfs and built this specifically as a Dwarf.
Xylo, for the 15 CHA, take note this build was posted almost a year ago. At that time, I was unclear on exactly how the PM and CHA-based casters worked, but my understanding was if the character had the CHA to support it, the higher level spell slots would be opened up for metamagic. It's been a long time since I've fiddled with this type of class combo, so I don't know if that would work or not, but IIRC, it won't. If you know for certain, please let me know. Otherwise, I may test it out when I get a chance. _________________ Where I'm playing now: World of Greyhawk.
Oh, Cinn, it works like a charm. You just got to know how to pull it off. Welcome to the Grim Parlour of Charismatic Undead:
Right-click on the quickslot, and use the radial menu to get to metamagic, and voila, your meta'ed spells show up. I'm not sure, but I think you can do this by right-clicking on the spell-target too and picking it from there. That won't work well for multiplayer and no-pause scenarios, though.
I have built 2 CHA-based Palerunners on this guild, and they taught me how to play them. You're ready to leave the Parlour, bring my learnig to the people.
Rock on. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Interesting behavior for the charisma-caster PMs Grim, 15 cha is probably worth it then, since you can use the 5th level spells to extend improved invisibility and war cry.
I don't build that many pale masters, but it will be something I keep in mind in case I decide to try one. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
that having been said, might consider taking curse song instead of extra music; but at bard 11, not much effect either way . . .just a thought; and a toss up.