Playable from level 1 - 40 ..PvM


Here is my attempt at a high-speed monk spy. Any pointers on optimising her, or pointers to similar but better builds would be welcome.

Advantages:
High sneak/speed/evasion/concealment
Blinding Speed
Epic Dodge
Good saves and several immunities/resistances
30 dex
6-9 attacks a round with decent AB
No XP penalty
16 STR means earlier levels aren't quite so painful as some DEX builds
Decent naked AC

Disadvantages:
Two-handed Kama burns a lot of feats and leaves HtH unoptimised
No weapon specialisation = low damage without magical kama
One-trick pony - sneak, knockdown, slice and repeat?

Elf, Female, LN

STR: 16
DEX: 18 (30)
CON: 10
WIS: 10
INT: 12
CHA: 8

Level 01: Monk(1): Dodge, M: (Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist)
Level 02: Monk(2): M: (Deflect Arrows)
Level 03: Monk(3): Mobility
Level 04: Monk(4): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
Level 05: Monk(5)
Level 06: Monk(6): Weapon Finesse, M: (Knockdown, Improved Knockdown)
Level 07: Monk(7)
Level 08: Monk(8): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
Level 09: Monk(9): Weapon Focus: Kama, M: (Improved Evasion)
Level 10: Monk(10): M: (KI Strike +1)
Level 11: Shadowdancer(1): SD: (Hide in Plain Sight)
Level 12: Shadowdancer(2): DEX+1, Ambidexterity, SD: (Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge I), (DEX=21)
Level 13: Champion of Torm(1): CT: (Lay on Hands)
Level 14: Champion of Torm(2): Two-Weapon Fighting, CT: (Sacred Defense)
Level 15: Champion of Torm(3): Toughness, CT: (Smite Evil)
Level 16: Champion of Torm(4): DEX+1, Spring Attack, (DEX=22)
Level 17: Champion of Torm(5): CT: (Divine Wrath)
Level 18: Champion of Torm(6): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Blind Fight
Level 19: Champion of Torm(7)
Level 20: Champion of Torm(8): DEX+1, Weapon Focus: Unarmed, (DEX=23)
Level 21: Shadowdancer(3): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=24)
Level 22: Shadowdancer(4)
Level 23: Shadowdancer(5): SD: (Defensive Roll)
Level 24: Shadowdancer(6): DEX+1, Epic Dodge, (DEX=25)
Level 25: Monk(11): M: (Diamond Soul)
Level 26: Monk(12): M: (Diamond Body)
Level 27: Monk(13): Blinding Speed, M: (KI Strike +2)
Level 28: Monk(14): DEX+1, (DEX=26)
Level 29: Monk(15)
Level 30: Monk(16): Epic Weapon Focus: Kama, M: (KI Strike +3)
Level 31: Monk(17)
Level 32: Monk(18): DEX+1, (DEX=27)
Level 33: Monk(19): Armor Skin
Level 34: Monk(20)
Level 35: Champion of Torm(9)
Level 36: Champion of Torm(10): DEX+1, Great Dexterity II, Epic Prowess, (DEX=29)
Level 37: Shadowdancer(7): SD: (Slippery Mind)
Level 38: Shadowdancer(8)
Level 39: Shadowdancer(9): Epic Fortitude
Level 40: Shadowdancer(10): DEX+1, (DEX=30)

Monk(20), Shadowdancer(10), Champion of Torm(10), Elf


Hitpoints: 380 max
Skillpoints: 215
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 32/24/41
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 40 (melee), 37 (ranged)
AC (naked): 34

Discipline 38(41), Hide 40(50), Listen 40(42), Lore 15(16), Move Silently 40(50), Tumble 40(50), & 2 spare

Edited By griphook on 07/27/05 17:21

Hi Neenex,

Nice build. I like Dex-based Monks, but don't think I've seen this class blend before. Some quick thoughts:

1. Move Weapon Finesse to Level 3 instead of 6.
2. Why focus in Unarmed as well as Kama? By your own admission, the build is pressed for feats due to the dual-wielding feats, so why not commit to one choice of weaponry?
3. I think you'll find Spring Attack is not needed in such a high Dex, high Tumble build.
4. I'm not sure if it fully applies to Monks, but is your AB higher if you hit level 20 as Monk 8/SD 4/CoT 8 instead of Monk 10/SD 2/CoT 8?
5. I don't think SD gets Discipline as a class skill. Accordingly, can you move your last level of CoT or Monk to 39 or 40 to max out Discipline?

Kaliban.
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"Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover Okay, not bad. A couple of things: in builds like this, I feel that anything beyond 5 levels of SD is redundant. The Monk gives you just about everything beyond that. Also, have you considered pumping in a few Wisdom Points at creation? Might beuseful.

Observe the following: Zen Guardian, a 25Monk/10CoT/5SD, who uses more or less the same set up, achieves the same AB(or slightly higher), but gets to a much higher AC and DC with his Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm. Also, going fists allows the character to actually pierce higher DR, though I think you can still get by with Kamas.
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Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!

Edited By grizzled_dwarflord on 07/13/05 13:38

Good points, guys. I hadn't seen the Zen Guardian, as you'll probably have guessed.

1. Definitely right about weapon finesse.
2. Last three levels of SD are a waste, I can see that. If I make them CoT, get 12 more HP and +1 to saves. If they are monk, I can max out all the key skills. Could probably do without Slippery mind for another couple of HP and +1 to saves.
3. Some feats here are "fillers", I suppose - if I replaced Spring Attack with imp crit:unarmed, then it improves her bludgeoning ability a little, though a character like this will only use unarmed against crit immune monsters. I'd like to have taken the Initiative feats, but they aren't available as CoT bonus feats. Not sure I really need Blind Fight either.
4. Zen Guardian is very impressive, and undoubtedly has the edge at level 40, what with the extra AC, AB and Spellcraft bonus. It's a tricky call between STR or WIS for me - I chose STR for the extra +3 damage on the Kamas - I personally find it frustrating to have to hit a critter dozens of times to do the same damage others do with one hit. WIS does offer better AC, Saves and Stunning fists, though.
Quote: Posted 07/13/05 14:45:50 (GMT) -- neenex

Good points, guys. I hadn't seen the Zen Guardian, as you'll probably have guessed.

2. Last three levels of SD are a waste, I can see that. If I make them CoT, get 12 more HP and +1 to saves. If they are monk, I can max out all the key skills. Could probably do without Slippery mind for another couple of HP and +1 to saves.

Last 5 levels of SD are a waste. Monks are immune to mind spells at level 20. So you will never need to make the will save check slippery mind also affects.

Syrath
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It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Quote: Posted 07/13/05 14:45:50 (GMT) -- neenex

I personally find it frustrating to have to hit a critter dozens of times to do the same damage others do with one hit.
I agree, though a couple extra points in strength will hardly make a difference, except at 1-3rd level. After that, you'll be left way behind. But that's not the build's focus. And besides, her sidequest is to find some Str enhancing items. When I make a dex-build, my first goal is to "not be hit", followed closely behind by "still being able to hit", followed by "how am I going to kill the bloody thing?" It typically will be a War of attrition, where your Epic Dodge, high AC and concealment will beat your opponents AB, while you wittle him down to nothing. In both this build and the Zen Guardian, the problem invariably comes down to, How do I kill the Big Boss? Is the 2 extra damage you are receiving from Str going to really make the difference, or would you rather have that boost your AC to compliment youe Epic Dodge at higher levels? I don't know. Tough call, and one that really can be justified either way.
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Ariel, Ookla, RIDE! I've had a play with this character, bearing in mind all your great advice, and basically, the best I can pull off is:

Monk(25), Shadowdancer(5), Champion of Torm(10)
STR: 12
DEX: 18 (30)
CON: 10
WIS: 15 (18)
INT: 12
CHA: 8

Grizzled's Zen Guardian is almost identical, but better AB and AC: basically a much more optimised build. Plus, he did it first. This girl does 1 extra damage each hit (potentially 9 damage in a round), but Zen Guardian gets 40 more skill points. With the 202 this girl gets, you can max Tumble, Hide, Move Silent, Listen and Discipline. If you drop Blinding Speed, you can get DEX to 32, like the Zen guardian, but IMHO in a low magic world, Blinding Speed is a very useful feat and will save you lots of money on potions.

I also like it that this build gets Monk levels to 16 as quickly as possible. Level 16 is very much the turning point for monks, I think.

The pre-epic level split seems to be optimal with monk12/CT8, but I needed the bonus CT feats to get my abilities up in epic levels, and it only meant one less AB point.

Level 01: Monk(1): Dodge, M: (Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist)
Level 02: Monk(2): M: (Deflect Arrows)
Level 03: Monk(3): Weapon Focus: Kama
Level 04: Monk(4): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
Level 05: Monk(5)
Level 06: Monk(6): Mobility, M: (Knockdown, Improved Knockdown)
Level 07: Monk(7)
Level 08: Monk(8): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
Level 09: Monk(9): Ambidexterity, M: (Improved Evasion)
Level 10: Monk(10): M: (KI Strike +1)
Level 11: Monk(11): M: (Diamond Soul)
Level 12: Monk(12): DEX+1, Two-Weapon Fighting, M: (Diamond Body), (DEX=21)
Level 13: Monk(13): M: (KI Strike +2)
Level 14: Monk(14)
Level 15: Monk(15): Improved Initiative
Level 16: Monk(16): DEX+1, M: (KI Strike +3), (DEX=22)
Level 17: Champion of Torm(1): CT: (Lay on Hands)
Level 18: Champion of Torm(2): Toughness, Improved Critical: Kama, CT: (Sacred Defense)
Level 19: Champion of Torm(3): CT: (Smite Evil)
Level 20: Champion of Torm(4): DEX+1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, (DEX=23)
Level 21: Shadowdancer(1): Great Dexterity I, SD: (Hide in Plain Sight), (DEX=24)
Level 22: Shadowdancer(2): SD: (Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge I)
Level 23: Shadowdancer(3)
Level 24: Shadowdancer(4): DEX+1, Blinding Speed, (DEX=25)
Level 25: Shadowdancer(5): SD: (Defensive Roll)
Level 26: Champion of Torm(5): CT: (Divine Wrath)
Level 27: Champion of Torm(6): Epic Dodge, Epic Weapon Focus: Kama
Level 28: Champion of Torm(7): DEX+1, (DEX=26)
Level 29: Champion of Torm(8): Great Wisdom I, (WIS=16)
Level 30: Champion of Torm(9): Great Dexterity II, (DEX=27)
Level 31: Champion of Torm(10): Armor Skin
Level 32: Monk(17): DEX+1, (DEX=28)
Level 33: Monk(18): Epic Prowess
Level 34: Monk(19)
Level 35: Monk(20)
Level 36: Monk(21): DEX+1, Great Wisdom II, (DEX=29), (WIS=17)
Level 37: Monk(22)
Level 38: Monk(23)
Level 39: Monk(24): Great Wisdom III, (WIS=18)
Level 40: Monk(25): DEX+1, Epic Toughness I, (DEX=30)
Quote: Posted 07/13/05 16:30:09 (GMT) -- neenex

I've had a play with this character, bearing in mind all your great advice, and basically, the best I can pull off is:

Monk(25), Shadowdancer(5), Champion of Torm(10)
STR: 12
DEX: 18 (30)
CON: 10
WIS: 15 (18)
INT: 12
CHA: 8

Grizzled's Zen Guardian is almost identical, but better AB and AC: basically a much more optimised build. Plus, he did it first. This girl does 1 extra damage each hit (potentially 9 damage in a round), but Zen Guardian gets 40 more skill points. With the 202 this girl gets, you can max Tumble, Hide, Move Silent, Listen and Discipline. If you drop Blinding Speed, you can get DEX to 32, like the Zen guardian, but IMHO in a low magic world, Blinding Speed is a very useful feat and will save you lots of money on potions.

I also like it that this build gets Monk levels to 16 as quickly as possible. Level 16 is very much the turning point for monks, I think.

The pre-epic level split seems to be optimal with monk12/CT8, but I needed the bonus CT feats to get my abilities up in epic levels, and it only meant one less AB point.

Level 01: Monk(1): Dodge, M: (Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist)
Level 02: Monk(2): M: (Deflect Arrows)
Level 03: Monk(3): Weapon Focus: Kama
Level 04: Monk(4): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
Level 05: Monk(5)
Level 06: Monk(6): Mobility, M: (Knockdown, Improved Knockdown)
Level 07: Monk(7)
Level 08: Monk(8): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
Level 09: Monk(9): Ambidexterity, M: (Improved Evasion)
Level 10: Monk(10): M: (KI Strike +1)
Level 11: Monk(11): M: (Diamond Soul)
Level 12: Monk(12): DEX+1, Two-Weapon Fighting, M: (Diamond Body), (DEX=21)
Level 13: Monk(13): M: (KI Strike +2)
Level 14: Monk(14)
Level 15: Monk(15): Improved Initiative
Level 16: Monk(16): DEX+1, M: (KI Strike +3), (DEX=22)
Level 17: Champion of Torm(1): CT: (Lay on Hands)
Level 18: Champion of Torm(2): Toughness, Improved Critical: Kama, CT: (Sacred Defense)
Level 19: Champion of Torm(3): CT: (Smite Evil)
Level 20: Champion of Torm(4): DEX+1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, (DEX=23)
Level 21: Shadowdancer(1): Great Dexterity I, SD: (Hide in Plain Sight), (DEX=24)
Level 22: Shadowdancer(2): SD: (Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge I)
Level 23: Shadowdancer(3)
Level 24: Shadowdancer(4): DEX+1, Blinding Speed, (DEX=25)
Level 25: Shadowdancer(5): SD: (Defensive Roll)
Level 26: Champion of Torm(5): CT: (Divine Wrath)
Level 27: Champion of Torm(6): Epic Dodge, Epic Weapon Focus: Kama
Level 28: Champion of Torm(7): DEX+1, (DEX=26)
Level 29: Champion of Torm(8): Great Wisdom I, (WIS=16)
Level 30: Champion of Torm(9): Great Dexterity II, (DEX=27)
Level 31: Champion of Torm(10): Armor Skin
Level 32: Monk(17): DEX+1, (DEX=28)
Level 33: Monk(18): Epic Prowess
Level 34: Monk(19)
Level 35: Monk(20)
Level 36: Monk(21): DEX+1, Great Wisdom II, (DEX=29), (WIS=17)
Level 37: Monk(22)
Level 38: Monk(23)
Level 39: Monk(24): Great Wisdom III, (WIS=18)
Level 40: Monk(25): DEX+1, Epic Toughness I, (DEX=30)

Dude, where's my Weapon Finesse?
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"Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover Aargh - knew there'd be something! Drop improved initiative, move mobility to 15, so now you can take finesse at 6... More an exercise in number crunching than anything else, here's the Dev Crit version - same class split as the last, but no wis. I had to go nasty Half Orc (boo - horrible looking model and dreadful unarmed combat animations!), unarmed and drop blinding speed. Much lower AC&AB&saves, but 1d20+7 damage on each of six hits (1d20+4 by level 20), not to mention the dev crit chance. All of which basically means that you don't want to meet him in a dark alley (which is where he will hang out, you can be sure).

Monk(25), Shadowdancer(5), Champion of Torm(10), Half-Orc

STR: 19 (25)
DEX: 16 (25)
CON: 10
WIS: 9 (10)
INT: 10
CHA: 6

MLevel 01: Monk(1): Toughness, (Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist)
Level 02: Monk(2): (Deflect Arrows)
Level 03: Monk(3): Power Attack
Level 04: Monk(4): DEX+1
Level 05: Monk(5)
Level 06: Monk(6): Dodge, (Knockdown, Improved Knockdown)
Level 07: Monk(7)
Level 08: Monk(8): DEX+1
Level 09: Monk(9): Ambidexterity, (Improved Evasion)
Level 10: Monk(10): (KI Strike +1)
Level 11: Monk(11): (Diamond Soul)
Level 12: Monk(12): DEX+1, Mobility, (Diamond Body)
Level 13: Monk(13): (KI Strike +2)
Level 14: Monk(14)
Level 15: Monk(15): Weapon Focus: Unarmed
Level 16: Monk(16): DEX+1, (KI Strike +3)
Level 17: Monk(17)
Level 18: Monk(18): Improved Critical: Unarmed
Level 19: Monk(19)
Level 20: Monk(20): DEX+1
Level 21: Shadowdancer(1): Great Dexterity I, (Hide in Plain Sight)
Level 22: Shadowdancer(2): (Uncanny Dodge I)
Level 23: Shadowdancer(3)
Level 24: Shadowdancer(4): DEX+1, Great Dexterity II
Level 25: Shadowdancer(5): (Defensive Roll)
Level 26: Champion of Torm(1): (Lay on Hands)
Level 27: Champion of Torm(2): Great Dexterity III, Epic Weapon Focus: Unarmed, (Sacred Defense)
Level 28: Champion of Torm(3): STR+1, (Smite Evil)
Level 29: Champion of Torm(4): Epic Prowess
Level 30: Champion of Torm(5): Epic Dodge, (Divine Wrath)
Level 31: Champion of Torm(6): Great Wisdom I
Level 32: Champion of Torm(7): STR+1
Level 33: Champion of Torm(8): Great Strength I, Great Cleave
Level 34: Monk(21)
Level 35: Monk(22)
Level 36: Monk(23): STR+1, Great Strength II
Level 37: Monk(24)
Level 38: Monk(25): Armor Skin
Level 39: Champion of Torm(9): Overwhelming Critical: Unarmed
Level 40: Champion of Torm(10): STR+1, Devastating Critical: Unarmed