This build was inspired by a post I saw on another forum. I tweaked it somewhat but wanted to throw it out here for feedback. I built a dwarf version that focuses in Scimitar and Mace and came out with essentially the same stats. (Of course I considered tweaking that build to Ftr 10/WM 28/Assassin 2 and enrolling in the Dwarven Assassins Guild!).
The Two-Fisted Weaponmaster (Katana & Mace) Classes: Fighter 10/WM 28/Rogue 2 Race: Human Alignment: Any
21 - Rogue 1 Toughness 22 - WM 11 23 - WM 12 24 - WM 13 Great Str I, *Wpn of Choice: Mace 25 - WM 14 26 - WM 15 27 - WM 16 Great Str II, *EWF: Katana 28 - WM 17 29 - WM 18 30 - WM 19 Great Str III, *Epic Prowess 31 - WM 20 32 - WM 21 33 - WM 22 Great Str IV, *EWF: Mace 34 - WM 23 35 - WM 24 36 - WM 25 Great Str V, *Armor Skin 37 - WM 26 38 - WM 27 39 - WM 28 Great Str VI, *Epic Toughness I (Maximize Discipline) 40 - Rogue 2 (Maximize: UMD, Tumble, Open Lock + choice)
AC 22 BA 30 HP 455 AB: 50/45/40/35 & 50/45 Saves: Fort 22/Reflex 22/Will 15 Skills: Max Disc, Tumble, UMD, Open Lock + 50 points _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Edited By griphook on 07/15/05 13:36
Very nice AB, a few things though.
Quote: Posted 07/14/05 05:38:20 (GMT) -- Kaliban99 I built a dwarf version that focuses in Scimitar and Mace ...
I'd say that's a remnant from before you changed your mind and went katana. Minor typo, but still.. On the topic of weapons, I'd probably use dwarven war axe and hand axe for a build like this to get the most out of the +2 crit range you get from WM.
I'd switch places for ambidex and mobility. Mobility is useful on its own, but you really need both ambidex and two-weapon fighting to dual-wield.
Nice build though, it should be able to do some serious damage.
Quote: Posted 07/14/05 13:24:19 (GMT) -- pulse cap
Very nice AB, a few things though.
Quote: Posted 07/14/05 05:38:20 (GMT) -- Kaliban99 I built a dwarf version that focuses in Scimitar and Mace ...
I'd say that's a remnant from before you changed your mind and went katana. Minor typo, but still.. On the topic of weapons, I'd probably use dwarven war axe and hand axe for a build like this to get the most out of the +2 crit range you get from WM.
Apologies if I'm wrong here Kal: pulse, I think that's actually not a typo. I think the intent is to have 2 weapons with different damage types.
Also, Humans get a bonus feat, which is used for Exotic weapons. Going Dwarf would lose that feat, so it would be tough to fit in the Dwarven Waraxe (That Dwarfs don't get automatic proficiency in it is a crime against nature!)
As for the +2 crit range: scimitar actually gets the most out of it, since it has a broader crit range. (Of course, you have to be able to hit your opponent in that extended range...)
Kaliban99: I like this build quite a lot (awesome AB!), although I think pulse cap's suggestion of moving Mobility up is solid. Nice job. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 07/14/05 16:49:09 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din Apologies if I'm wrong here Kal: pulse, I think that's actually not a typo. I think the intent is to have 2 weapons with different damage types.
The typo is that it says scimitar in the text, katana in the feats, axes were just my suggestion.
Quote: Posted 07/14/05 16:49:09 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din Also, Humans get a bonus feat, which is used for Exotic weapons. Going Dwarf would lose that feat, so it would be tough to fit in the Dwarven Waraxe (That Dwarfs don't get automatic proficiency in it is a crime against nature!)
Quote: Posted 07/14/05 16:49:09 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din I never said anything about going dwarf, humans can use dwarven waraxe right? You are probably right about the two damage types though, but i still recommend x3 crit (see below), perhaps war hammer and hand axe? As for the +2 crit range: scimitar actually gets the most out of it, since it has a broader crit range. (Of course, you have to be able to hit your opponent in that extended range...)
I did some calculations on that, and it looks like 20 x3 is better than 18-20 x2 when you add the WM bonuses. The table below lists "average damage multiplier" ie if you swing 100 times at a enemy you will score about 100*[your average damage]*[average damage multiplier].
So, provided I got that right, axes will actually do a little more average damage regardless of what you need to roll to hit.
Quote: Posted 07/14/05 20:27:05 (GMT) -- pulse cap
Quote: Posted 07/14/05 16:49:09 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din Apologies if I'm wrong here Kal: pulse, I think that's actually not a typo. I think the intent is to have 2 weapons with different damage types.
The typo is that it says scimitar in the text, katana in the feats, axes were just my suggestion.
Sorry, pulse, but what I meant was he said he also built a Dwarven version that used scimitar and mace. When he built the Human version, he had an extra feat, which he used for exotic, and he chose katana for the Human version. Not a typo, he actually meant scimmy for Dwarf, katana for Human.
Quote:
Quote: Posted 07/14/05 16:49:09 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din Also, Humans get a bonus feat, which is used for Exotic weapons. Going Dwarf would lose that feat, so it would be tough to fit in the Dwarven Waraxe (That Dwarfs don't get automatic proficiency in it is a crime against nature!)
Quote: Posted 07/14/05 16:49:09 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din I never said anything about going dwarf, humans can use dwarven waraxe right? You are probably right about the two damage types though, but i still recommend x3 crit (see below), perhaps war hammer and hand axe? As for the +2 crit range: scimitar actually gets the most out of it, since it has a broader crit range. (Of course, you have to be able to hit your opponent in that extended range...)
Sorry, my mistake, I thought you were implying switching to Dwarf and taking the Dwarven Axe (seems a natural, no?). My bad.
As for the calculations, I'll just take your word for it. I don't put much stock in statistics when it comes to damages for different weapons in this game, since no matter what you post to back your case, someone else will find something to refute it (and there are too mnay variables involved to reliably calculate the damages). Suffice it to say, when you said "+2 crit range" earlier, I thought you were speaking specifically (and only) about the critical threat range and not the critical multiplier as well. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Thanks for the great feedback. Me likes this build and expects to see him/her romping around my PW soon....
pulse cap, That's not a typo where I discuss the Dwarf version choosing scimitar and mace - Cinnabar nailed my intention regarding the race choices. I opted for Scimitar and Mace for that build, but for the Human version, I opted to select Exotic weapons for three reasons: 1) To take advantage of the bonus Human feat, 2) To open up the choice of weaponry if a nice shiny toy is found laying around, and 3) My PW has some nice Katanas available pre-epic
Great point about taking mobility earlier - I'll incorporate that in my notes. Are both in the Fighter bonus feat list?
Regarding my choice of off-hand weaponry, I wanted something with a different damage type than the primary weapon, thus Mace (bludgeoning) to complement Katana (slashing). When my toddler is over his bug and I'm getting more sleep, I'll take a look at the calculations that you generously posted.
Again, thanks to you both for the feedback.
Kaliban _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Great point about taking mobility earlier - I'll incorporate that in my notes. Are both in the Fighter bonus feat list?
Yep. Both are on the list. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Sorry about the "typo" comment. I see now that I just misread your post. Must have been too tired
EDIT:
Quote: Posted 07/14/05 21:15:09 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din Suffice it to say, when you said "+2 crit range" earlier, I thought you were speaking specifically (and only) about the critical threat range and not the critical multiplier as well.
At that time, I was. +2 crit range gives the most benefit to axes, +1 multiplier gives the most benefit to scimitar. Since I was arguing for axe I presented the argument which would favor using an axe. Of course in the table I used all modifiers though.
SECOND EDIT: Arf! I just noticed I messed up the quoting in my last post. Sorry to misquote you like that Cin.
Edited By pulse cap on 07/15/05 03:56
This is a seriously cool build---been toying with something similiar but the obviousness of this strategy completely escaped me
At any rate, the only complaint I have is if you were to level this one up the hard way (ie, not using a trainer), it might be a bit boring as the feats are few and far between. Since I generally play PW that lean towards the Hard Core side (no dev crit, etc), it's hard to face the prospect of a build that gains feats so scarcely.
Very cool, though---I may give it a shot anyway.
EDIT - By scarce I mean getting two feats every three levels (you sort of gain power all at once, then have to wait awhile for another large gain. As opposed to, say, gaining a little at a time).
Edited By chsmi on 07/19/05 00:36
Quote: Posted 07/19/05 00:34:36 (GMT) -- chsmi
This is a seriously cool build---been toying with something similiar but the obviousness of this strategy completely escaped me
At any rate, the only complaint I have is if you were to level this one up the hard way (ie, not using a trainer), it might be a bit boring as the feats are few and far between. Since I generally play PW that lean towards the Hard Core side (no dev crit, etc), it's hard to face the prospect of a build that gains feats so scarcely.
Very cool, though---I may give it a shot anyway.
EDIT - By scarce I mean getting two feats every three levels (you sort of gain power all at once, then have to wait awhile for another large gain. As opposed to, say, gaining a little at a time).
Thanks for the feedback - this wasn't entirely my own idea (I'm not creative enough for that!).
I've been playing this one on my PW for the past week or so and he is just a blast. He just tears into mobs and flails away. If he starts taking damage he goes into Improved Expertise mode. If he still takes damage he drops his offhand weapon and pulls out a tower shield. Fortunately his AB is so high that Expertise and Improved Expertise don't significantly affect his damage output.
One change I made is that I took Knockdown instead of Toughness. As Cinnabar pointed out, Toughness is only 1 hit with some opponents, yet if I have someone knocked down, they can't swing at me
I know what you mean about waiting for those feat levels! It seems like a long time between them, but every third level is like Christmas, Hanukkah, and Festivas all rolled into one long weekend!
Kaliban. _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Great build. I'm working on a very similar build as a replacement for my utterly-broken dex-based Twinblade from a couple of weeks ago. I'm playing the char through HotU right now, which I understand is not the best test of a build. However, under those circumstances, I'm finding that the rogue skills are pretty much wasted. Saves, resistances, and immunities (from gear) mean that I take very little reflex damage anyway, which eliminates the usefulness of Evasion (and Search/Disable Trap, if you chose those). I've yet to find a lock I couldn't bash using Power Attack (70+dmg crits), so Open Lock isn't helpful. I had high hopes for UMD, but so far (CL 24) I've not found anything I really truly wanted to use that I couldn't normally use. The character is so devastating with his melee weapons that I don't need to use scrolls or wands. Tumble, obviously, is great for AC, but at least thus far I only very rarely need a healing potion to survive a fight or group of fights, which means the AC wouldn't do me a whole lot of good. The extra 1d6 damage from sneak attack is good, certainly, but it's 1d6 on top of crits for 70 or so (with shortsword), so the extra 6 damage is not earth-shattering.
I'm not trying to slam the build... obviously I love it. But I've been trying to justify the rogue levels to myself, and I hope you might know some additional factors that I've not yet thought of. It may just be the difference between HotU and a PW... I've not yet tried any PWs.
So... why do you like the 2 rogue levels instead of, say, another 2 fighter levels (which would be more hp and 1 more feat)?
Thanks!
Edited By SovranSpecific on 07/19/05 14:51
It's quite simple, really. Tumble. +8 to AC. Hard to pass it up. Granted, Evasion is nice to have. The only other alternative I could see would be to take Bard instead, to access both Tumble and Spellcraft. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
It's quite simple, really. Tumble. +8 to AC. Hard to pass it up. Granted, Evasion is nice to have. The only other alternative I could see would be to take Bard instead, to access both Tumble and Spellcraft.
Yes, indeed, that's a good reason. My point was that in HotU, without tumble, this build already doesn't need healing very often at all, which means it's not using its full defensive capacity. Adding more defensive capacity would mean it needs healing even less. The real limiting factor in HotU (or the OC or SoU) is how big a single fight/encounter you can do before you have to heal; if you can survive the fight, you can rest or teleport back to town for healing. If you're already surviving all the fights/encounters with plenty of hp left and without needing healing in the middle, adding more defensive abilities just reduces the number of hp that get healed when you rest or visit the temple or whatever. If you were dying a lot, or using lots of heal potions, or finishing most of your fights with very few hp, then of course you'd want more defense. But if you're killing things before they can do you any significant damage, why bother?
I'm sorry if this sounds confrontational or something. As I mentioned, I've been arguing with myself about it, so I'm really just looking for others' opinions. I think in a PW without all the immunities and resistances of HotU, and without the effectively infinite supply of heal potions, the situation would be totally different.
Edited By SovranSpecific on 07/19/05 19:21
Nice build griz. just wondering why you take open lock as a skills, as opposed to something like set trap, search, disable trap or even something for roleplaying like intimidate, persuade or bluff. with a massive melee build like this i don't think any door or chest is safe. just curious is all. otherwise, i like the crazy melee ability. just wish you could have crammed in some magic or something else interesting to this build. _________________ "Perception is strong and sight weak. In strategy it is important to see distant things as if they were close and to take a distanced view of close things." - Miyamoto Musashi
If you took 2 Bard levels instead of the 2 Rogue levels, you could maximize Spellcraft instead of Open Lock and get an additonal +8 on spell saves.
Quote: Posted 07/19/05 22:13:48 (GMT) -- Alcmaeon
If you took 2 Bard levels instead of the 2 Rogue levels, you could maximize Spellcraft instead of Open Lock and get an additonal +8 on spell saves.
Very good point...Still get UMD and Tumble that way, and this build could use the extra save help.
Nice build griz. just wondering why you take open lock as a skills, as opposed to something like set trap, search, disable trap or even something for roleplaying like intimidate, persuade or bluff. with a massive melee build like this i don't think any door or chest is safe. just curious is all. otherwise, i like the crazy melee ability. just wish you could have crammed in some magic or something else interesting to this build.
Just a quick note, C, I don't think this is my build, at least not the last time I checked. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Yes, indeed, that's a good reason. My point was that in HotU, without tumble, this build already doesn't need healing very often at all, which means it's not using its full defensive capacity. Adding more defensive capacity would mean it needs healing even less. The real limiting factor in HotU (or the OC or SoU) is how big a single fight/encounter you can do before you have to heal; if you can survive the fight, you can rest or teleport back to town for healing. If you're already surviving all the fights/encounters with plenty of hp left and without needing healing in the middle, adding more defensive abilities just reduces the number of hp that get healed when you rest or visit the temple or whatever. If you were dying a lot, or using lots of heal potions, or finishing most of your fights with very few hp, then of course you'd want more defense. But if you're killing things before they can do you any significant damage, why bother?
I'm sorry if this sounds confrontational or something. As I mentioned, I've been arguing with myself about it, so I'm really just looking for others' opinions. I think in a PW without all the immunities and resistances of HotU, and without the effectively infinite supply of heal potions, the situation would be totally different.
Just remember, HotU is a very minor, fractional playing environment. It is best not to use it as a yard stick. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Edited By grizzled_dwarflord on 07/20/05 00:06
QUOTE Just a quick note, C, I don't think this is my build, at least not the last time I checked. END QUOTE
Whoops! I totally goofed on that one. My congrats should rightly go to Kaliban99. Nicely done Kaliban. My apologies. Thanks for the catch griz. but my question still stands, why take the open lock skill. my thoughts were similar to Alcmaeon. take bard instead, and get umd, tumble, spellcraft, and maybe even a slight bonus to attack and damage from preform, if you like.
-C _________________ "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
QUOTE Just a quick note, C, I don't think this is my build, at least not the last time I checked. END QUOTE
Whoops! I totally goofed on that one. My congrats should rightly go to Kaliban99. Nicely done Kaliban. My apologies. Thanks for the catch griz. but my question still stands, why take the open lock skill. my thoughts were similar to Alcmaeon. take bard instead, and get umd, tumble, spellcraft, and maybe even a slight bonus to attack and damage from preform, if you like.
-C
Thanks for the kind words.
The reason I opted for Rogue and Open Lock is that on my PW, Open Lock is needed for high level areas.
If I didn't want Open Lock, I would have gone Bard and Spellcraft. Thanks, all, for putting that option out there.
Kaliban. _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
This may be altering from your intentions too much, but dropping WM to 25 (lose 1 AB and bonus feat Epic Toughness), increasing Fighter to 12 (get WSpec and EWSpec for katana), and increasing Rogue to 3 (uncanny dodge and small sneak) seems like another possible option.
I prefer the +6 damage each hit with your primary hand. With all that AB you really won't miss one point. I guess you'd also have to give up improved expertise, toughness, and epic toughness though too.
You could still use expertise mode, but you'd lose HP. Just another possible option I guess.
Quote: Posted 07/20/05 16:48:14 (GMT) -- GoVols
This may be altering from your intentions too much, but dropping WM to 25 (lose 1 AB and bonus feat Epic Toughness), increasing Fighter to 12 (get WSpec and EWSpec for katana), and increasing Rogue to 3 (uncanny dodge and small sneak) seems like another possible option.
I prefer the +6 damage each hit with your primary hand. With all that AB you really won't miss one point. I guess you'd also have to give up improved expertise, toughness, and epic toughness though too.
You could still use expertise mode, but you'd lose HP. Just another possible option I guess.
Interesting....it does deviate from my goal of maximum AB. But definitely an option. +6 per hit with main hand equates to a maximum of 24 damage (30 when hasted). But at the cost of losing Imp. Expertise, Toughness and Epic Toughness? Ouch. Personally, I don't like that deal.
Some might though, so thnaks for putting it out there.
Kaliban. _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Interesting....it does deviate from my goal of maximum AB. But definitely an option. +6 per hit with main hand equates to a maximum of 24 damage (30 when hasted). But at the cost of losing Imp. Expertise, Toughness and Epic Toughness? Ouch. Personally, I don't like that deal.
Some might though, so thnaks for putting it out there.
Kaliban.
Hmm... I love the idea you started with, but alas, I too fell victim to the weapn spec/epic wpn spec "twink". Though i'm alittle bit more insane, I was trying to get epic wpn spec in BOTH! (that is, if it works in the off-hand wpn) I didnt get a chance to get the final product done, and it would most definitely mean losing wm levels so i'm not sure if its valid on this post or not. Thanks for stimulating my old mind!
Interesting....it does deviate from my goal of maximum AB. But definitely an option. +6 per hit with main hand equates to a maximum of 24 damage (30 when hasted). But at the cost of losing Imp. Expertise, Toughness and Epic Toughness? Ouch. Personally, I don't like that deal.
Some might though, so thanks for putting it out there.
Kaliban.
Hmm... I love the idea you started with, but alas, I too fell victim to the weapn spec/epic wpn spec "twink". Though i'm alittle bit more insane, I was trying to get epic wpn spec in BOTH! (that is, if it works in the off-hand wpn) I didnt get a chance to get the final product done, and it would most definitely mean losing wm levels so i'm not sure if its valid on this post or not. Thanks for stimulating my old mind!
I believe ES and EWS do work in the offhand. I think I've seen a build that gets EWS in two weapons, but I think that build took more Fighter levels.
Edit: Here are two examples I found with a quick look: Mick Dagger's Feat Master (Ftr 30/CoT 10) Click Here
Mith's Master Fencer (Bard 1/Ftr 20/WM 19) Click Here
Kaliban _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
Edited By Kaliban99 on 07/22/05 12:55
Actually if you go with a DEX build instead of a STR build Take Rapier as your weapon or Kukri, you will have the same crit range but your AC will be higher ... make sure you take weapon finesse in there somewhere tho..
But you won't do any damage...
so i'm not sure if its valid on this post or not. Thanks for stimulating my old mind!