With the recent glut of rogue (assassin)/mages I thought I would post one that has level 9 spells. The end result is a pretty good DEX based spellsword, that has all of the versatility of a rogue and a strong magical punch. It should work well in no or low magic environments. It should be playable through all levels, but signigicant amounts of skill points need to be saved at certain levels, so the build may be lacking some skills during the epic levels.
Similar builds include: Crispy Critter's Arcane Trickster, Xitooner's Very Versatile Kensai and Mauvais Guillam's Versatile Kensai.
Advantages
-Level 9 Illusionist spells. His caster level is high enough that he can bypass item based SR with a Mordenkainen's Disjunction. He is fairly resistant to greater dispels as well, though he is susceptible to mordenkainen's disjunction. -Epic Dodge. Always good to be able to avoid an attack. -Good Reflex Save and Improved evasion. He doesn't have to worry about spells with a reflex save for half damage -7D6 sneak attack. With improved knockdown and mage spells like darkness, timestop, the bigby's hand spells etc. he can land many sneak attacks against his enemies. -Good skill set. He can sneak around, find and disable/recover traps, set traps and open locks. He can use knock on high DC locks and he can use true seeing to spot concealed opponents. -Fair AB. It could be better but a 40 AB (38 while dual wielding) is pretty high for a rogue wizard. He can use true strike to augment this and land a knockdown for some sneak attacks. In a no or low magic setting, the bonus from greater magic weapon should make him quite competetive.
Disadvantages
-Low Spell DCs. He is reliant on spells that have no DCs. -Low hitpoints. 354 is high for this class mix, but low for a character. -Mediocre Fortitude and Will saves. Against spells he is pretty good, but the base saves could be better.
Arcane Scout
Race Human
Alignment Any non evil
Base Attributes STR 12 DEX 16 CON 14 WIS 8 INT 16 CHA 8
Attribute Bonuses Levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 24, 28, 32, 36 and 40 go to Dexterity Level 20 goes to INT
Skillpoint Distribution Level 1: DT 4, H 4, O 4, MS 4, S 4, ST 4, T 4, Save 20 Level 2: DT 1, H 1, O 1, MS 1, S 1, ST 1, T 1, Save 25 Level 3: DT 1, H 1, O 1, MS 1, S 1, ST 1, T 1, Save 30 Level 4: DT 1, H 1, O 1, MS 1, S 1, ST 1, T 1, Save 35 Level 5: DT 1, H 1, O 1, MS 1, S 1, ST 1, T 1, Save 40 Level 6: DT 1, H 1, O 1, MS 1, S 1, ST 1, T 1, Save 45 Level 7: DT 1, H 1, O 1, MS 1, S 1, ST 1, T 1, Save 50 Level 8: DT 1, H 1, MS 1, S 1, ST 1, T 1, Save 56 Level 9: C 12, SC 12, Save 38 Level 10: C 1, SC 1, Save 42 Level 11: D 14, Save 34 Level 12: D 1, Save 39 Level 13: DT 5, H 5, MS 5, S 5, ST 5, T 5, Save 21 Level 14: D 2, Save 25 Level 15: D 1, Save 30 Level 16: DT 3, H 3, MS 3, S 3, ST 3, T 3, Save 24 Level 17: D 2, Save 28 Level 18: D 1, Save 33 Level 19: DT 3, H 3, MS 3, S 3, ST 3, T 3, Save 27 Level 20: DT 1, H 1, MS 1, S 1, ST 1, T 1, Save 33 Level 21: C 11, SC 11, Save 17 Level 22: C 1, SC 1, Save 21 Level 23: C 1, SC 1, Save 25 Level 24: C 1, SC 1, Save 30 Level 25: C 1, SC 1, Save 35 Level 26: C 1, SC 1, Save 40 Level 27: C 1, SC 1, Save 45 Level 28: C 1, SC 1, Save 50 Level 29: D 11, Save 46 Level 30: C 2, SC 2, Save 49 Level 31: C 1, SC 1, Save 54 Level 32: C 1, SC 1, Save 59 Level 33: C 1, SC 1, Save 64 Level 34: C 1, SC 1, Save 69 Level 35: C 1, SC 1, Save 75 Level 36: C 1, SC 1, Save 81 Level 37: C 1, SC 1, Save 87 Level 38: C 1, Save 94 Level 39: DT 19, H 19, MS 19, S 19, ST 12, T 17, Save 3 Level 40: D 10 _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
Edited By Mithdradates on 07/21/05 08:11
Very Nice!!! _________________ A Man of War who treads the world's roads alone, as I do, must be quick. Long ago I learned to strike swiftly and without scruple. I trouble no man without cause, but one who attacks me had best resolve himself to die!
Well, as you might suspect, I LOVE THIS BUILD.
You can build it elf, too (I always do) if you are willing to let go of blind fight (I am).
Very nice job.
Ah, crud. You can't take CoT until you get AB 7. You don't get AB from illusionist until Level 3. So that has to be adjusted.
Quote: Posted 07/21/05 16:07:52 (GMT) -- Ithacan
Ah, crud. You can't take CoT until you get AB 7. You don't get AB from illusionist until Level 3. So that has to be adjusted.
That's actually incorrect. Wizards get their first point of BAB at level 2, not 3. Wizards get 1 BAB every 2nd level. This character has 8 levels of rogue and 2 levels of wizard (Illusionist) before taking CoT:
8 rogue = BAB 6 2 wizard = BAB 1 TOTAL = BAB 7
Build works fine as listed.
Very cool build Mith. Personally I might take TWF and Ambi earlier in the build order, but it looks like a fun build to play.
Steve
Edit: Heh, too slow Cin
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 07/21/05 16:29
Quote: Posted 07/21/05 16:07:52 (GMT) -- Ithacan
Ah, crud. You can't take CoT until you get AB 7. You don't get AB from illusionist until Level 3. So that has to be adjusted.
No, you get +1 AB at WIZ (Illusionist) level 2.
levels 1 to 8 are Rogue (BAB +6) levels 9 and 10 are Illusionist (BAB +1)
Total BAB at level 10 is +7, so you can take CoT at level 11, just like the build says. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Thanks, Cinn and Stravinksy, my apologies to Mith. The grimoire confirms that. Seems like when I build in the game that they come at the 3rd and 4th levels of the 4 level cycle. Did the manual have it that way?
This really helps a caster build.
Anyway, thanks, sorry to have commented on a build that I reeaaally like.
Quote: Posted 07/21/05 16:48:19 (GMT) -- Ithacan
Thanks, Cinn and Stravinksy, my apologies to Mith. The grimoire confirms that. Seems like when I build in the game that they come at the 3rd and 4th levels of the 4 level cycle. Did the manual have it that way?
The charts at the backs of my manuals does show the correct +1 every 2nd level, and I have both the original and platinum edition manuals.
Steve
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 07/21/05 17:01
Does EWF stack on WF such that WF + EWF = +3 to AB? Otherwise, I would always take Epic Prowess before EWF just for principle's sake.
Quote: Posted 07/21/05 18:31:06 (GMT) -- Ithacan
Does EWF stack on WF such that WF + EWF = +3 to AB? Otherwise, I would always take Epic Prowess before EWF just for principle's sake.
They stack, so it's generally a better idea to take EWF first. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Cool. That changes some things, then.
This way you have fewer levels with an odd numbered dexterity (obviously, I built it with rapier as the weapon, and I built it elf).
I guess the tradeoff is +2 EWF which more than offsets the delay in bonus for AB/AC. You get a few (6 or so?) less skill points by switching your ability increase for intelligence from level 20 to 40 but I did not notice any other problems with that move.
Out of curiosity, what feat and which skill did you drop with your Elf? _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 07/21/05 19:04:24 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Out of curiosity, what feat and which skill did you drop with your Elf?
You can drop Toughness or Blind Fight; I dropped Toughness for the general reason that at the end, 40 hitpoints goes by in the blink of an eye.
I am building it so I haven't run the skills yet but generally I max out concentration, spellcraft, tumble, discipline, UMD and spot. Then rapper's delight for the 'thief skills' -- I generally rely on the invisible line of spells for hide/move silently, so you have roughly 80 skill points there to play around with. Your dexterity bonus allows you to take fewer skill slots with open lock and set trap than you might otherwise. I'd keep set trap high, open lock low. Since disable trap and search aren't based on dexterity, you need to run those higher. If need be, my familiar is a pixie.
Here are the skills as I would distribute them with an elf. The brackets show the change from Mith's build:
With an elf's modal detect (why I like elvish rogues), the seven points on search won't be missed.
We should probably keep this discussion to Mith's original build, and possibly post your elf version as a separate build (giving Mith credit of course). One thing I wanted to note though:
Quote: Posted 07/21/05 20:06:34 (GMT) -- Ithacan
UMD 40 (39) [+40]
You final UMD including the CHA modifier should always be a multiple of 5, because UMD skill only gets better in jumps of 5. Having a UMD check of 39 is no better than a UMD check of 35.
And you've also dropped Hide and M/S very, very low for a stealth build, which I must says seems a bit odd to me.
You final UMD including the CHA modifier should always be a multiple of 5, because UMD skill only gets better in jumps of 5. Having a UMD check of 39 is no better than a UMD check of 35.
And you've also dropped Hide and M/S very, very low for a stealth build, which I must says seems a bit odd to me.
Steve
You are right on the UMD, easily remedied by switching a point over to it.
I view rogue as a combat build (sneak attack) with high utility factor. Invisibility, improved invisibility = stealth.
Thanks, Steve.
I like this build but I'm thinking of using a halfling and daggers. Could I do that and still stay close to this build concept? At first glance I think I would just need to adjust the base attributes and that would in turn affect some of the epic lvl feats? _________________ Chars: Morfin Wili
As halfling you can start with:
STR 12 DEX 17 CON 14 WIS 8 INT 16 CHA 8
You can delay a non-epic feat (extend spell/blind fight/thoughess?) to trade it at epic levels for great Dex V and voilá, you end with same stats and feats. Plus 1 extra AB and 1 extra AC (and being weaker to KD). You also get 43 less skillpoints, It is up to you which skill you wish to discard (Unlock and untrap?). _________________ HEAD KNIGHT: Shh shh. We are now the Knights Who Say Ekke ekke ekke ptang zoo boing! RANDOM: Ni!
You can delay a non-epic feat (extend spell/blind fight/thoughess?) to trade it at epic levels for great Dex V and voilá, you end with same stats and feats. Plus 1 extra AB and 1 extra AC (and being weaker to KD). You also get 43 less skillpoints, It is up to you which skill you wish to discard (Unlock and untrap?).
I figured I was missing something else. I guess as a halfling his KD and IKD would not work too well either. I guess I should stick with a human then. Ah well, I just like the little guys. Thanks for the help Fern and thanks to Mith for the build. _________________ Chars: Morfin Wili
Thanks, Cinn and Stravinksy, my apologies to Mith. The grimoire confirms that. Seems like when I build in the game that they come at the 3rd and 4th levels of the 4 level cycle. Did the manual have it that way?