Intended to be playable in PvM from Lvl 1 to Lvl 40 (whether I succeeded in that is debatable).
I posted in the forum asking for a build that uses these three classes, but did not receive any response. After building this character, I find myself unsurprised at the lack of response, as it was overall a pretty disappointing final product. However, I posted it here anyway as it's my first "official" build post and I thought some of the vets might be able to suggest some simple improvements that would shore up it's many weaknesses.
Anyway, my goal for this build was to see what could be done with this combination of classes in terms of "self-reliance". My goals were:
1) To obtain max-dual wielding # of attacks 2) To require little or no magical equipment 3) To take the best advantage of the synergy of monk abilities (attacks, imp ev., etc), cleric AB buffs, and dwarven defender DR. My hope was that this would generate a fun to play, well-balanced character.
Did I succeed? Debatable..to be honest, I'm not sure how happy I am with the final product. I always try to create characters that are playable from level one to level 40, but this one would be tough to start. In fact, I would consider him a weakling until lvl 9 (when he gets darkfire), and he doesn't really come into his own until he can effectively dual-wield (at level 15). This is generally true of monk builds that don't have some fighter levels before 10th, however.
Strengths:
1) Very solid AB for a dual-wielder. 2) Maximum monk attack schedule (8 attacks, 9 with flurry, 10 with haste) 3) 18/- DR. 4) Decent naked AC (34 using stance only) 5) Some versatility with ability to cast level 6 cleric spells at 15th level. 6) Somewhat overcomes the biggest weakness of the cleric class: being dispelled, since he retains his DwD abilities.
Weaknesses:
1) Not enough feats to go around, he's missing some of what I consider to be basic feats for any melee build : improved critical and epic prowess, for instance. You could drop DR for the epic prowess, but couldn't figure out how to fit in imp. crit. without losing something that was important to the "goal" of the build. 2) Forced to take 4 levels of monk and 8 levels of cleric pre-epic, lowering potential BAB by 3. 3) Low intelligence means very little in the way of skills. I tend to always take at least Int 12 since I think almost all classes need better skills than this one has. 4) Reflex save is a bit low, so not sure taking 9 levels of monk for the improved evasion is justified. 5) Very low damage potential without some type of elemental weapon, even with darkfire buff. 6) Will have to re-buff fairly frequently to maintain his strong AB.
Feats: 1: Dodge 3: Weapon Finesse 6: WF: Kama 9: Toughness 12: Ambidexterity 15: Two-Weapon Fighting 18: Improved 2WF 21: Epic DR I 24: EWF: Kama 27: Epic DR II 30: Great Dex I 33: Epic DR III*, Great Dexterity II 36: Great Dexterity III 39: Great Dexterity IV
*DwD Bonus Feat
Stat Increases: 4, 8 into Dex 12, 16, 20, 24 into Con 28, 32, 36, 40 into Dex
Final HP's (no rerolls, in stance): 667 (Max: 744)
Anyway, feel free to rip this build apart---I know that there are ways to tighten it up.
Thanks!
Edited By chsmi on 08/08/05 16:00
To improve your reflex saves, you could take 8 monk pre-epic instead of 4, but that would delay your cleric spells even more.
Also, you don't seem to have any reason to take Great Dex 1-4 other than to improve your dex. You could take Epic Prowess and Armor Skin instead of two of those and end up with the same BAB and 1 more AC.
Or you could lose all 4 great dex, take Epic Prowess, Armor Skin, Improved Critials and one other feat of your choice for -1 AB and the same AC as your build.
Interesting build idea. I'm surprised that there isn't one out there, congrats on the idea! (I checked with pulse cap's search tool - no results). I've played Cleric/Ftr/DD's before, so here are my thoughts:
How about taking level one as a Monk (for Cleave), then take a stretch of Cleric levels, playing as an armored cleric with one or two Monk levels taken to maximize Tumble, then taking a bunch of DD levels, hitting level 20 as Monk 4/Cleric 8/DD 8? Or maybe even Monk6/Cleric 8/DD 6 so you can get Imp. Knockdown pre-epic?
I think you should definitely intersperse your development with Monk levels to maximize Tumble rather than taking a group of 3 or 4 at one time (eg. 36-40).
And personally, I wouldn't want to play a character with such a low intelligence - I like my skill points. I'd be inclined to drop Constitution to boost Intelligence. And perhaps Wisdom too.
Great idea though. I look forward to seeing what other input you get.
Kaliban _________________ "Where there is life, there is hope." - Grover
It certainly is nice to see lots of fresh build ideas still coming into this forum.
As for the build in question, I offer this, and I think it is the source of your dissatisfaction with the build: drop DwD.
Yes, sounds drastic, and goes against the grain for everything you strived, but consider that DwD really isn't giving you anything except 9 DR. Stance, well, isn't really all that great. That ability has fallen out of favor with me. It looks nice on paper, but in practice I don't find it all that practical.
Instead, I would take CoT. I would start Wis at 14, flood your Int and Str with those skill points you gain. Then you can take 4 CoT pre-epic to get your 16BAB, drop Dodge, and then have 3 empty feat slots to grab all the things you want, like Blindfighting, Improved Critical, and maybe even WF: Unarmed to give this guy a fighting shot at low levels.
Then, you can take 6 more CoT levels in Epic. Two of those bonus feats I would use to get Great Wisdoms, the third I would use to get Epic Prowess. You can then take more Monk levels(15). This will give you a +2 to Armor Class, a 15% increase in speed, and give you Diamond Body and Mind.
All your saves are going to skyrocket, and his AB will still be where it is now. You'll end up losing that EDR III, but he'll still have 6/- _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Edited By grizzled_dwarflord on 08/08/05 17:26
Ah, yes. CoT. I have lately been enamored of the DwD class, but now that you mention it I really must agree with you, grizzled_dwarflord. Stance is only useful if you can use it all the time, and this requires a ton of DwD levels (or frequent resting), which is just not possible with this concept. I am still a bit mournful about losing the d12 hit dice, but I'd say that isn't a compelling enough reason to stick with it.
I think CoT is an excellent suggestion. I can see how that would open up the build for a ton more feats, and still doesn't completely run against the original concept (I think I could still eke out all 3 epic DR feats for 9/- dr). I think I often overlook CoT, and now that I examine it more closely I see that there is tremendous synergy potential when combined with cleric.
I'm off to tinker with it. Thanks all of your for your suggestions!
Quote: Posted 08/08/05 20:27:08 (GMT) -- chsmi
Stance is only useful if you can use it all the time, and this requires a ton of DwD levels (or frequent resting), which is just not possible with this concept.
Well, don't take my word for it, for I am running a character now who has more Stance uses than I know what to do with. I think it has its uses in low magic environments.
But it's never been about the amount I get, but about the way it works (and maybe it's just that I don't know how to use it properly). If my Dwarf gets an itch on his rear, he breaks from Stance. If I make an Attack of Opportunity, I break from Stance. If someone is beyond my reach, I break from Stance. If I equip a shield, I break from stance. In short, unless I am stone statue and don't move, ever, Stance works great. But I always like to move in combat, to shift tactics, to hit and run, etc., so stance has never been a good fit for me. If it worked like Rage, then I would give it my endorsement. It does not, however, so I've given up on DwDs unless it's to harness some major DR. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
I'm inclined to agree with the Dwarflord... I played a Fighter/Rogue/DwD for quite a while and all sorts of things seemed to break me out of my stance. If I recall correctly, even drinking a potion did (or was it heal kits?).
And the strength boost was nice in low levels, but eventually items maxed that out pretty quick and the boost there was no longer any use. Low levels or low magic it is a very nice boost, but as you grow, the stance will have less value. (Depending on your world)
That's not to say DwD doesn't have uses though, the damage reduction is very nice, and so is the no-flanking against rogue enemies. Just don't get caught flat-footed And d12 hit dice can't get any better!
Just to add my two cents...
First, nice original build. I have been trying to come up with new ideas, and here you go and just pop one out. Interesting idea.
Second, I too know the pain caused by DwD Stance. It seems to turn off everytime anything happens. Almost literally, I need to use at least 4 uses in a large fight with multiple enemies who keep moving around. Its just not worth it.
But the prevention of flanking, now that is really helpful. A dozen enemies are now more like one with several arms...and bodies...in different places...well you get the idea. Also, DR doesn't hurt either, but higher up the use is debatable.
Two cents all used up.
-C _________________ "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
I'm glad my post inspired so much feedback from so many vets of the board! Thanks again to you all for all your ideas:
Grizzled Dwarflord: I toyed with a tentative build using CoT instead of DwD, and so far I like how it's working out. You've definitely hit on something with that suggestion...posting v2 sometime soon (probably tomorrow).
Lego_90: I like your suggestion--makes perfect sense. I tend to get a bit carried away with the Great <insert favorite stat here> feats, putting them in simply because I'm not sure what else to choose. Your advice is excellent, and I am definitely going to incorporate it in version 2.
Kaliban99: Thanks for the compliments, and good call on interspersing the monk levels--I don't know why I didn't do that here, as I generally do that at the 5 point "hotspots" (levels where tumble can be taken to an exact multiple of 5).
christian.schnabel: It's funny, I was thinking something very similiar about DR today...the more PW's I play, the more I realize that high DR is less and less helpful as you get closer to 40, as the 18 points per hit resisted from mobs that hit four times for 90 points/hit still require "rapid F3 spamming" (my slot of choice for heal potions).
Anyway, I keep going back and forth about DwD...high DR and high HPs are always hard to turn away from. However, finicky stance and watching the SORC/WM/RDD builds beating the tar out of mobs while I just stand there becomes irritating after awhile I also noticed that DwD builds tend to become more of a boring character to play than many other builds I enjoy...though I couldn't put my finger on why that is.
Will post the new version once I have an hour or so to firmly rebuild this guy.
Thanks again to everyone for your advice.
Edited By chsmi on 08/09/05 05:49
New version posted, incorporating all of your ideas!
Moderator(s), please lock this thread if you would be so kind.
And d12 hit dice can't get any better!
Just to add my two cents...