This is an attempt to use the harper scout class in order to enhance a Ch based character.I guess the lvling order can easily be improved, but still, it's easily playable since you're starting as a pure paladin, for finally becoming a cleric in the end of the leveling process. The Harper scout class grants access to tumble, and charisma buffs as well.
Race : human Morality : Lawful good Gear : full plate, tower shield, longsword
-------------------------- FINAL BUILD --------------------------
Aura of Glory + Eagle's splendor (spell & hs's feat) = 2d4+6 in Charisma
-= Constitution
Aura of vitality + Endurance + War domain = 1d4+8
-= BA
BBA = 30 weapon focus 1 Bless +1 Divine favor +5 Aid +1 Holy sword +5 Prayer +1 Battletide +2 st bonus after buff : +12 war domain +3 = 61
-= AC
17
+2 from dex buff +10 Magical vestment +4 shield of faith +1 prayer +9 Divine shield 8 full plate 3 shield = 55
-= Damage output
With all those buffs, it's kind of tricky to calculate it; but even unbuffed, or against crit immuned creatures, the dmg output is good thanx to the natural strength and with divine power
-= Devastating Crit
I never understood how it was calculated , but anyway, after testing the character, it should be at 42
-= Others
+ 50% concealment + Lvl 8 clerical spells and has access to all the paladins' spells + Dispell on hit + high save + fair hp + Extremely Versatile + In spite of an average charisma, divine might & power and the war domain ability should last 9 rounds with your charisma buffs which is acceptable.
-= Main Weaknesses
- This character is starving for feats - Quite poor in term of skills
A fifth harper scout level would give you another HS bonus feat. _________________ Character Build Calculator(works with Excel, Open Office) 2.83: updated to NWN 1.69.
i'm not sure a favored enemy feat is worth losing 1 ab...I meant "real" melee feats such as ewf, or epic prowess, ...
By taking another hs lvl, the free feat would allow great ch II, and so, the last extra point would go into strength instead of ch at lvl40. But i would loose 1 in abat the same time coz of odd number of lvls. So, in term of ab, it exactly the same, but with a slight loss on the spells duration's side...
Moreover, the hs's feat invisibility is useless since you're a cleric using trickery domain, and i dont think the potion you can make stack with the buffs you already have. Anyway, this character already has the potential for a +12 in both charisma & dexterity without gear at all. So i dont think the 5th lvl of hs is really a good option.
i'm not sure a favored enemy feat is worth losing 1 ab...I meant "real" feats such as ewf, or epic prowess, ... By taking another hs lvl, the free feat would allow 1 more great ch II, and so, the last extra point would go into strength instead of ch at lvl40. But i would loose 1 in ab. So,in term of ab, it exactly the same ...
Well, if you take 5 HS levels and 15 cleric levels you would end up with the same AB but strength 26: +1 to AB and +1 to damage. Not sure where you lose the +1 AB. _________________ Character Build Calculator(works with Excel, Open Office) 2.83: updated to NWN 1.69.
My bad; you're right
But you're loosing 1 round / turn in spell duration ( 2 with extended spells ), and a lvl7 & 8 cleric spells as well. I'm not sure an extra point in ab/dmg is worth that loss.
Edited By Anglashell on 08/11/05 13:20
First, let me say that this build has great merit. I am always the first person to like Harper Scouts in any build; however, I question the utility of it in this one.
You certainly acknowledged the feat-famine he endures, but that's putting it mildly. Exhanging your precious general Epic Feats for Alertness and Iron Will? I hesitate to say this, but that's foolhardy. And then not take the last HS level for a Great Charisma, which, in my mind, is the sole reason to take HS to begin with. And you won't lose 1 AB. By taking the 5th level, you can now bump your strength up to 26, and thus gain a +1 to AB. I think you might be confusing pre-epic BAB conversions with Epic-- they don't work the same. You'll get +10BAB in Epic regardless of your class choice.
Also, almost the entire feat selection is geared toward Dev Crit. And you don't acquire it until Level39. I would drop Cleave, Great Cleave and take Iron Will and Alertness in its place, and now you have two Epic feats open. Actually, you'll have 4 because you can then drop Over Crit and Dev Crit. That sounds like 4 Great Charismas to me. Then, he can stack his Eagles from both Cleric and HS so he can just rip spleen out of evil everywhere.
Further, I would then take HS post-haste at Lvl22 for a +5 to AC tumble dump. It also seems ashame to not take any Cleric levels in pre-epic...that Wisdom just kind of sits there for awhile before it does anything. Taking 20 straight Paladin almost makes it look like a PvP build. Even taking 4 Cleric isn't going to affect his BAB all that much. A 19 vs. 20. Remember there's more to survival and combat than AB.
Other than that, I'd say this build, if restructured properly, has a lot of potential. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Edited By grizzled_dwarflord on 08/11/05 13:25
Basically, the purpose of this build is to make an offensive pal/cleric . I used the hs class as a way to enhance the charisma abilities of cleric/pal in order to make them usable. I usually consider that under a duration of 10 rounds, both divine might & shield arent worth being used. Here, fully buffed, the duration is 9 rounds, which isnt great but acceptable. But dont get me wrong; the purpose wasnt to make a divine might/shield based toon. This is an offensive buffer toon, with enough versatility to have the use of both dev crit & divine might/shield in the end.
Since the builds posted here are made without gear, the only way to make divine shield & might usable for a st based toon is through the hs class.
Yet, i'd like to point out that in my opinion, the fact that dev crit just arrives at lvl39 isnt really a problem...I guess it depends of people, but i keep on playing my toons once lvl40. But anyway, even without dev crit, this toon is easily playable. I mean he doesnt need to rely on it to be playable; i just consider it as an extra. From that point of view, it's exactly the same for the divine shield/might problem. That character doesnt basically need it; i mean he already has the maximum bab, with full access to paladin's spells, and 90% of the cleric's spells. But I tried to add it, as another possible orientation of the way that toon could be played.
I dont say this toon needs both dev crit & divine might/shield, but in case of, and while playing it, you know that toon will keep on becoming more powerfull until the point when he'll have them all.
Nonetheless, I would agree with you with the way i took the hs lvls. It would prolly be better to take a hs level every 5 lvls after 20. That would give extra ac and discipline every 5 lvls. But I did it that way to increase the cleric spells efficiency the quicker as i could, considering you're starting lvl21. But anyway, i thought that the 1st 20 lvls were easy enough since you're playing a pure pal, and the following 15 are very easy too, since the cleric buffs keep on growing and stacking to your melee abilities. The final boost is given by the addition of hs which finally gives access to tumble, discipline, and eventually divine might/shield if there wasnt any gear to boost your charisma.
So to answer to your question about the utility of hs : - it gives access to tumble - it gives access to discipline, in which you cant spend points after the paladins levels - it allows to maximize your charisma in case you dont have the proper gear, and so boost your saves. - the direct consequence is to make divine shied/might feats last long enough to be usable.
And finally, of course there is an obvious lack of epic feat. I sacrificed some epic feats for alertness & ironwill. Have a look at the addition of the ab once buffed. Do you really think, considering what having access to hs brings, the loss of eventually ewf & epic prowess, or +2 in a stats, or armor skin is such a loss?
Edited By Anglashell on 08/11/05 14:45
following your suggestion grizzled, ( thx for the input btw ), here is a quick fix in order to have dev crit earlier
To further Grizz's point, a level 3 cleric can add up to +2 to his AB through bull's strength. So losing a pre-epic AB won't hurt really at all.
I like the rebuild.
Cheers.
I thought i heard that this is a charisma build? Do i read the numbers right, 16 charisma? Hmm... I think i'll look at this concept alittle and get back to you all.
+2 from dex buff +10 Magical vestment +4 shield of faith +1 prayer +9 Divine shield 8 full plate 3 shield = 55
There's somethin goofy in the ac calcs. The fact you wear fp means only +1 dex bonus, regardless of how high your dex is. +10 magic vestment? WOW, ive been playin clerics a LONG time and have only gotten +5 bonus (which is negated by +5 fp or higher). I always thought i also got +5 from shield of faith.. my bad
I have looked at the build and i have come to a conclusion: If you go charisma, go all the way! The pal20/cl15/hs5 seems a really nice combo (i am not certain though as I am ignorant of hs' and i am not at home to run the tests). If you took str to 16 and did the rest to charisma (minus 2 to wis) and takin the great charisma feats in place of gr strs and stuff, you will have a fantastic duration for divine might. The other thing to consider is to take extra turning. If you are a divine user you need it! If you are to leave the build as is" with 16 charisma you will have a pathetically low amount of divs to use, especially since you are usin BOTH might and shield. Oh, i think it was grizz who suggested the removal of cleave.. i think you need it for divine might, but i could be wrong! Gr cleave is useless imho, so move alertness and iron will to 15 and 18, which leaves epic for epic feats! Just my two cents.
+2 from dex buff +10 Magical vestment +4 shield of faith +1 prayer +9 Divine shield 8 full plate 3 shield = 55
There's somethin goofy in the ac calcs. The fact you wear fp means only +1 dex bonus, regardless of how high your dex is. +10 magic vestment? WOW, ive been playin clerics a LONG time and have only gotten +5 bonus (which is negated by +5 fp or higher). I always thought i also got +5 from shield of faith.. my bad
Actually, only the Magical Vestment part is wrong. The build starts with starts with dex 8. Cat's Grace could bump that up to 12, which is why there's a +2AC relative to the naked unbuffed AC of 17, even with full plate. And Shield of Faith is +2 AC plus an additional +1 every six levels, so for a 16th level cleric, it's +4. But Magical Vestment should definitely be +5, not +10, so the AC would go down to 50.
Quote: I have looked at the build and i have come to a conclusion: If you go charisma, go all the way! The pal20/cl15/hs5 seems a really nice combo (i am not certain though as I am ignorant of hs' and i am not at home to run the tests). If you took str to 16 and did the rest to charisma (minus 2 to wis) and takin the great charisma feats in place of gr strs and stuff, you will have a fantastic duration for divine might.
Yeah, this build could make for a great CHA warrior. And pal20/cl15/hs5 does seem to make more sense, for the extra bonus feat for great CHA.
Quote: Oh, i think it was grizz who suggested the removal of cleave.. i think you need it for divine might, but i could be wrong!
Just need Power Attack actually. Had to look it up though, as I also thought it required Cleave.
Steve
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 08/14/05 01:34
I think he means +10 because he magically vests both shield and full plate for +5 each..
I think he means +10 because he magically vests both shield and full plate for +5 each..
5+5 = 10. I hope
-DaMouse
Oh duh, good point. Yeah, so it's completely correct as is.
Steve
Yup, i counted both shield & armor. Sorry for not making it clear enough. As most of you suggested, a 5th lvl of hs would be more efficient. I must admit I didnt have time to rebuild it properly. I think I'll try to make 2 versions: a dev crit one, and another one without dev crit when I'll have more free time. It's true than dev crit's price is extremely high for this build.
@Avado: you're right; i didnt write it properly; i'm sorry for this. By the time i reread it, i couldnt edit the post. Actually, i should have said " This is an attempt to use the harper scout class in order to enhance the Charisma abilities of a strength based paladin".
Ps : Concerning the number of turning, if I remember well, i think it was something about 9 or 10 turning per rest. This isnt much, but as you have all the cleric & paladin's buff, I considered it as an extra buff for tougher fights. So yeah, the extra turning would definitaly be a great improvment, but it had to be sacrificed for getting dev crit. Ps2: Thx griphook for correcting the mistake on the title. Between this mistake, and the lack of precision in my sentences, i guess i should have waited for a better day for my brain to make this post
Edited By Anglashell on 08/14/05 13:12
* Revised Version *
+ 1 more lvl of HS for a +1 Ch + More balanced lvling for a regular ac boost + Earlier dev crit
, but anyway, after testing the character, it should be at 42
