I apologize in advance for posting what appears to be a repeat submission. However, considering the changes, I decided to start a new thread.
This combination is an improvement over the Sneaky Defender in that is secures Epic Dodge at level 36. This makes a HIPS, sneak attacking blender who dodges the first attack and has significant DR to absorb subsequent attacks. As always, please comment.
Very nice character. Kinda puts a tank and a rogue together to form some kind of crazy super dwarf. Just a quick point, putting tumble to 42 has no point. you don't receive any extra AC that if it were 40. And UMD could be put to 37, to get a resulting 35, again the same usefulness as 36. You can add these points (or more if you like) into set trap, which with your dex bonus adds more roguish fun.
-C _________________ "You cannot pass!"
Edited By christian.schnabel on 08/16/05 21:57
Looking at your build, I can't help but suggest the following: first drop Shadowdancer altogether. You don't need Hips. Second, this build seriously needs ITWF, Knockdown, and Improved Knockdown and, consequently, a higher Intelligence. Third, he needs a higher AB and needs a higher will save since he doesn't have slippery mind which most Rogue builds get.
What would you say if I could increase his AC by two, AB by one, give him 40 more Hit points, Knockdown, Improved Knockdown, ITWF, higher strength, 50+ more skillpoints, +4 saves across the board, Epic Dodge by level 28, 100% more playable pre-epic, and in so doing lose only HiPS and 3 DR?
Observe:
Str12 Int14 Wis8 Con18(22) Dex16(26) Chr6
1Rogue1, Knockdown 2Rogue2 3Rogue3, Weapon Finesse 4Rogue4, Dex=17 5Rogue5 6Rogue6, Weapon Focus 7Rogue7 8Rogue8, Dex18 9Rogue9, Dodge 10Rogue10, Improved Evasion 11CoT1 12Rogue11, Toughness, Dex19 13CoT2, Two-Weapon-Fighting 14CoT3 15CoT4, Improved Knockdown, Ambidexterity 16DwD1, Dex20 17Rogue12 18DwD2, ITWF 19DwD3 20DwD4, Dex21 21CoT5, Great Dex I 22Rogue13,Def Roll 23CoT6, EWF 24DwD5, Great Dex II, Dex24 25DwD6 26Rogue14 27Rogue15, Great Dex III 28Rogue16, Epic Dodge, Con19 29DwD7 30DwD8, Great Con I 31DwD9 32Rogue17, Con21 33CoT7, Epic Prowess 34CoT8, EDR I 35CoT9 36CoT10, EDR II, EDR III, Dex26 37Rogue18 38Rogue19, Improved Sneak I 39DwD10, Armor Skin 40Rogue20, Con22
Final AC: 28(29) AB: 39 Dualwielding: 37/32/27/25/37/32 Hit Points: 620 (700 in Stance) Skill Points: 310 DR: 15/- _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Didn't you also loose quite a lot of sneak attack?
EDIT: Specifically, I'd say you go from 17d6 to 11d6
Edited By pulse cap on 08/17/05 13:23
Quote: Posted 08/17/05 13:21:36 (GMT) -- pulse cap
Didn't you also loose quite a lot of sneak attack?
EDIT: Specifically, I'd say you go from 17d6 to 11d6
Perhaps, but think of it this way: he increases his sneak attacks landed by increased AB and KD/IKD and ITWF. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Thanks for the feedback Griz! Very nicely done.
I tried to consider my particular PW (Soulforge, or SF)in developing this character. SF is a moderate magic world, with lots of hard hitting critters. So, the best chance at survival is to have three things: 1) Damage Reduction, 2) High AC, and/or 3) The ability to "get out of the way" when things get hot.
Therefore, I chose to get DR first, ergo the DD levels early on for at least 18-21 DR. The Epic Dodge comes into its own at about the 30s when we start getting really pounded by the epic critters we find at that level. HIPS is a bonus and meets the "get out of the way" criteria, although many critters have true sight.
Your adjustments are great but doesn't have enough DR to be useful on SF, and although I would get Epic Dodge earlier, its not really needed at that point. I'll keep playing with your theme though and see what I come up with.
Again, great feedback, thanks! _________________ TeoDeathDealer Member of SoulForge PW (Action)
I tried to consider my particular PW (Soulforge, or SF)in developing this character.
I didn't assume this aspect, but rather was offering suggestions based upon a more universal philosophy. I probably would have left the build alone since it's intended for a specific PW, and who knows it better than you?
Quote: Therefore, I chose to get DR first, ergo the DD levels early on for at least 18-21 DR. The Epic Dodge comes into its own at about the 30s when we start getting really pounded by the epic critters we find at that level.
Honestly, I can't think of a level when Epic Dodge isn't needed. In my mind, Epic Dodge trumps DR. It seems like you still might be able to get 10DwD levels of DR and still get your Epic Dodge by Lvl28, but this would still postpone your EDR feats until the 30s. Either way, he still should maintain efficacy.
Quote: HIPS is a bonus and meets the "get out of the way" criteria, although many critters have true sight.
I understand the usefulness of HiPS, and it is a hard thing to turn one's back on. I can see why you would like to keep it. Consider, though, that in some sense it makes him a 1-trick pony, as he really doesn't have any other way to generate sneaks. Against sneak immune, or those who can see through your stealth, you rapidly run out of options.
Quote: Your adjustments are great but doesn't have enough DR to be useful on SF, and although I would get Epic Dodge earlier, its not really needed at that point. I'll keep playing with your theme though and see what I come up with.
Yeah, I was looking at it and just wanted to share some enhancements. I hate to see an Epic Dodging Rogue Dwarf without IKD, or with TWF but not ITWF. I also lamented to have your Dwarf stop at Con21 when Con22 was clearly attainable, without having to cannabilize from Dexterity.
I could talk about Dwarf builds all day long. If you build it, I will come. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Edited By grizzled_dwarflord on 08/17/05 15:33
Quote: Posted 08/17/05 15:31:04 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord I hate to see an Epic Dodging Rogue Dwarf without IKD
I hate to see any rogue build without IKD. It's usefulness for generating sneak attacks cannot be overestimated, especially in a build with many attacks per round.
Steve
Well, I tend to agree that KD and IKD are really useful here. Would it be wise then to substitute two-weapon fighting for KD feats? Get an AC boost with a shield, too. Limits to 4 attacks, but solid attacks.
I played with COT levels a bit, but am really set on at least 18 DD. Want at least 24 DR. This is important on our server.
Griz, I really value your input...great stuff to think about! _________________ TeoDeathDealer Member of SoulForge PW (Action)
Well, I tend to agree that KD and IKD are really useful here. Would it be wise then to substitute two-weapon fighting for KD feats? Get an AC boost with a shield, too. Limits to 4 attacks, but solid attacks.
It's not without merit, especially considering that you're dualwielding AB is only going to be 36, and you only have 1 offhand attack. If you are not going to take ITWF, might as well drop Ambi and TWF for KD and IKD and just get better quality hits.
Quote: I played with COT levels a bit, but am really set on at least 18 DD. Want at least 24 DR. This is important on our server.
The problem is, your above template only has 14 DwD, not 18, and your DR total is 18/-. That's why I offered the proposal of 15/- since it's only a 3/- difference. If you want 24/-, you are going to need 22 levels of DwD, and frankly, you're not going to make it going this route. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Ok, more finagling...hope you all dont mind, but this could be my signature build, so I want to maximize my chances of success here. I've tested this build and it seems to work. I can get the initial stats and the feats all flow. Seems to all work in the test module.
I would suggest dropping tumble 3 points, adding it to discipline. there is no loss of AC but a gain in resistance to melee feats.
-c
The two DD levels at the end should be switched to rogue, as they give you only 12 hp in favor of rogue. Nothing else. But with rogue levs you get 1d6 sneak, an extra rogue feat(slippery mind?) at 16 and you can take tumble to 40, and max stealth and UMD skills if you like.
Another thing, drop those initiative feats, with high dex, you win it anyway. Take great dex feats instead. Or epic prowess as one of them.
Edited By Grimnir77 on 08/20/05 12:59
Grimm, good advice. Will do that.
The only thing I see at quick glance is that you could gain a point of BAB if you re-ordered your rogue levels and swapped one DwD for rogue pre-epic so you were Rogue 12, DwD 8. bab = 17 instead of 16 and I dont see what harm it would do.
Overall, I think it will be a good build as long as you dont get too frustrated at lower levels. Solo isnt going to be much fun, but in a group especially with someone buffing you, you'll do well. Against undead/sneak-immune foes you will not pack much of a punch, but between the hitpoints and DR it should still be playable. Once you past level 30 when you start topping off the DR and gain Epic Dodge, I think the build will get better and better.
I just started playing on SF and I assume LordTeo is one of your chars, I was the guy who asked about why you switched to dislike. Anyway, good luck with your build and see you on SF.
UK
EDIT: Oh and you might want to work in crippling strike. Each sneak gives monsters -2STR= -1 AB and -1 Damage and its cumulative! Next to Imp evasion, I think its the best rogue feat. Since you will gain one with Grim's changes, that would be my pick.
