Yes I know, another RDD/Bard build. But I think this one is a bit different. I tried to make a version of the Troubadour Guardian, but with a better AB (by 10 I think), while sacrificing some AC (-3) and Bard spells (Cha to 30 instead of 36). This char is not a melee master, but rather a spellsword type, which needs to use spells in order to be considered a melee presence. With some buffing ahead of time and some nice spells in battle, along with a strong and long bard song and curse song, this contender should do well in a group. And yes, there does need to be some alignment shifting, but only 4 times. That is alot, I guess, but not as much as the Troubadour Guardian buld on the epic page requires...not offense, but 9 changes is a bit much. I think that less than half is a lot, but much more acceptable. If you start the char after level 7, which is possible in some mods, you should be ok for the 2 remaining changes. Or after 9, which is kinda high, but not too bad for epic scale adventures. And if you still think this is a bad idea, well, then you are probably right, but i still defend my right to post something this silly!
PvM, playable 1 to 40
Human Bard 32, RDD 4, Paladin 4
Alignment: Neutral Good, to Lawful Good, and back and forth a few times
STR 14 to 24 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 8 CHA 16 to 30
first 6 points into Strength, last 4 into Charisma (levels 4,8,12,16,20,24 in Strength, levels 28,32,36,40 into Charisma)
1 )Bard1 Curse Song, Expertise 2 )Bard2 3 )Bard3 Power Attack *changing to Lawful good* 4 )Paladin 5 )Paladin 6 )Paladin Divine Might *changing to neutral good* 7 )Bard4 8 )Bard5 *changing to lawful good* 9 )Paladin Divine Shield *changing to neutral good* 10)Bard6 11)Bard7 12)Bard8 Still Spell 13)Bard9 14)Bard10 15)Bard11 Improved Critical: Scimitar 16)Bard12 17)Bard13 18)Bard14 Improved Expertise 19)Bard15 20)Bard16 21)RDD1 Great Charisma I 22)RDD2 23)RDD3 24)RDD4 Great Cha II 25)Bard17 26)Bard18 27)Bard19 Lasting Inspiration 28)Bard20 29)Bard21 30)Bard22 Great Cha III 31)Bard23 Great Cha IV 32)Bard24 33)Bard25 Great Cha V 34)Bard26 Great Cha VI 35)Bard27 36)Bard28 Great Cha VII 37)Bard29 38)Bard30 Great Cha IX 39)Bard31 40)Bard32 Great Cha X
Suggested Skills: Concentration 43 Discipline 43 Spellcraft 43 (45 with int bonus) Tumble 40 UMD 15 (25 with cha bonus) Lore 8 This leaves you with quite a bit left over to put into whatever you like...I like heal, and maybe a few other skills. Taunt for those you like it, listen to help with sneaky people(Amplify spell helps alot, as does Clairaudience). This should let you wear and use a variety of equipment. You can stay in robes (if you find good ones) and not worry about spell failure, or go the full plate and shield route.
AB: 33/28/23/18 kinda low, especially for a melee warrior, but with bard song, bulls strength and greater magic weapon this hits a decent 41 to 42. strength enhancing equipment is a big help in this char's life.
Damage: 1d6 + 7 (15-20/x2) keen edge adds another 2 to teh crit range, for 12-20. most hits will crit, which i think will multiply the divine might damage (it seemed to at least in testing...correct me if i am wrong). add in some darkfire or flame weapon, and some bulls strength and GMW and we have some decent output here.
naked AC: 19 buffed and armored AC: 19 + 8 + 1 Cat's Grace + 10 impr expertise + 10 divine shield + 3 tower shield + 5 Bard Song = min 56 without magical equipment (more with Eagle's Splendour, Aura of Glory scrolls, nymphs cloaks and the like)
Saves Fort 31 Refl 31 Will 30
any boost to cha helps with the already decent saves. although an (improved) evasion granting item would be nice.
this build can do alright in most settings, with a group is best though...solo will be tough. the better the equipment and scrolls, the better the fighter. with a nice scimitar, plate and shield, this build can stand up to most fighters. add in keen edge (which works on the scimitar, unlike the poor, poor rapier) and improved invisibility, and divine shield and might and some melee muscle is born. the only problem is that there are few bard spells worth using in battle, except dirge (which must be cast ahead of the battle unless in robes) and war cry. some cloud types can help, but are sometimes useless. scrolls are a better bet here.
as you may have noticed, and as i said, this char MUST buff before battle. i recommend bulls, cats, eagles, mage armor for a start. add in impr invis, war cry, dirge during battle and curse song and bard song as you enter the fray. 100 rounds should be good enough for a duration. toss in a few greater dispellings, mind fog and dominate person for some added mischief if you are not too busy. overall, fun to play.
well, here is my version. my thanks go to Brian "Flameoftheabyss" Quah for creating the original TG. i hope it isn't as bad as i fear, but only time...and comments...shall tell.
You canīt do that. Lasting Inspiration requires 20 bard levels. Switch Great Cha III and LI.
Quote: ...(more with Eagle's Splendour, Aura of Glory scrolls, nymphs cloaks and the like)
Keep in mind that temporary charisma boosting will eat up your spells per day once the effect wears off (it grants an 'empty' slot and will take a 'full' slot). _________________ Character Build Calculator(works with Excel, Open Office) 2.83: updated to NWN 1.69.
It's good to see you stretching the limitations of the class system. And you're correct in your assessment that 4 alignment changes are noteworthy, yet seem trivial next to the Troubador's 9 shifts(9???). It seems you could do this by having only 2 alignment shifts.
A few things to consider:
1. Lasting Inspiration. You'll need to swap this around with one of your Great Charismas. Bard's cannot take it until 20 and beyond.
2. You have all your skills listed except the most important: Perform. With 32 levels of Bard, it should be noted where you want the Bardsong to begin and the Curse Song to end. Also, just how many points are left over? This kind of build would highly benefit from a maxed Taunt. A 30 Charisma is like getting ESF: Taunt for free.
3. RDD: I understand your thinking in taking 4RDD, and the 32 Bard, but consider this: 6 epic Bard levels net you 2 Great Charismas. 6 RDD levels would net you the same charisma increase, +4 more to Str, +2Con, more AC, and fire/paralysis immunity. The only drawback really are the demon wings.
4. I would consider dropping the Expertise feats. AC shouldn't be a problem, especially if you choose all 10RDD levels. Instead, I would take Extra Turning and Blindfighting.
5. You have a Great Charisma at Bard30. Just move that to Bard29.
I think he has the potential to solo. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
I think Griz is right you aren't casting many spells at foes so you don't need high caster level for spell penetration Also to make full use of level 32 Curse Song you'd need something like 110 (!) Perform to fully use level 26 Curse Song you'd need 80 Perform which is achievable with items _________________ Teaching men a lesson in combat etiquette.
first off thanks for the advice, all of this seems like a good idea. my apologies, lasting inspiration shoulda been back some more. my editing last night didn't catch that though.
grizz, i could only get the minimum 2 alignment shifts if i used more paladin levels or dropped one of the divine feats...unless you see a better way?
Quote: Keep in mind that temporary charisma boosting will eat up your spells per day once the effect wears off (it grants an 'empty' slot and will take a 'full' slot).
I know what you mean by this Kamiryn, but I am unsure why this happens...if you have a higher level bard (or sorc i think) and repeatedly put on and remove a nymph cloak, you will quickly lose all spell slots for the day. is this a bug or is there a good reason for this? just scratching my head on that one, and a worthy warning. *end rant* anyways, my hope is that you can use avoid cha boosting with spells by using equipment, or altogether...although i think that the duration would be pretty decent on eagles splendour.
and yes i did forget perform...should be maxed at 43. with charisma that hits 53. add in some epic gloves of the minstral and we are looking pretty. i sorta assumed that this char had a high perform throughout my post, and yet i never mentioned it. that is just plain goofy.
yes, i think that 10 RDD would be better than 32 bard...with that change this build becomes significantly better in every respect...that is why I like posting here, my mind is expanded to accomodate my dreams the only thing i was worried about was having my buffs dispelled. i though a caster level of 32 and a casting stat of 30 would make it ok, but the small drop in caster level shouldn't prove too significant, should it?
last couple of levels were way out of wack...here is the epic levels again, this time (hopefully) correctly typed out
21)RDD1 Great Charisma I 22)RDD2 23)RDD3 24)RDD4 Great Cha II 25)Bard17 26)Bard18 27)Bard19 Great Cha III 28)Bard20 29)Bard21 30)Bard22 Lasting Inspiration 31)Bard23 Great Cha IV 32)Bard24 33)Bard25 Great Cha V 34)Bard26 Great Cha VI 35)Bard27 36)Bard28 Great Cha VII 37)Bard29 Great Cha VIII 38)Bard30 39)Bard31 Great Cha IX 40)Bard32 Great Cha X
I think that is a bit better.
and if the RDD is increased, making a better bard as it were, then here is the result
21)RDD1 Great Charisma I 22)RDD2 23)RDD3 24)RDD4 Great Cha II 25)RDD5 26)Bard17 27)Bard19 Great Cha III 28)Bard19 29)Bard20 30)Bard21 Lasting Inspiration 31)RDD6 32)RDD7 33)RDD8 Great Cha IV 34)RDD9 35)RDD10 36)Bard22 Great Cha V 37)Bard23 Great Cha VI 38)Bard24 39)Bard25 Great Cha VII 40)Bard26 Great Cha VIII
which would change the stats
STR 14 to 28 DEX 10 CON 14 to 16 INT 14 to 16 WIS 8 CHA 16 to 30
AB would be: 35/30/25/20 AC would be: 19 + 3 = 22 naked
max HP would be: RDD(18+16+50) + Pally(40) + Bard(156) + Con(120) = 390 ...still low, especially for a melee presence, but scrolls of endurance, boots of striding or hardiness, impr invis and ghostly/ethereal visage all help with that
skillpoints are plentiful, so make sure to get those 43's in concentration, discipline, PERFORM, spellcraft, with 40 in tumble, 8 in lore, and probably (almost) max out taunt (at 40 instead of 43) for those who like it..never quite got the hang of it myself, maybe some points into listen and/or heal (20 each sounds fair). Total skill points should be: Bard(104) + RDD(20) + Pal(8) + Human(40) + Int(64+24) = 260
Also, i think AC is still a problem against rogue type characters, but with Impr expertise on, they usually can't hit you...you won't be hitting them much either though But i think that using those two feats for something else, like weap foc: scimitar, and blind fight or for KD and IKD, or for whatever you think you may lack. those two are definately throwaway feats.
Thanks for the feedback, grizz, ama and kam. The build is not only playable but also more powerful, with more HP, AB, and AC.
-C _________________ "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."
Edited By christian.schnabel on 08/23/05 14:02
Taking four RDD levels pre-epic would increase saving throws a little bit without losing anything. _________________ Character Build Calculator(works with Excel, Open Office) 2.83: updated to NWN 1.69.
Quote: Also to make full use of level 32 Curse Song you'd need something like 110 (!) Perform
Bard/Curse Song doesn't improve after level 30 & 100 Perform. (If you ask me, Bard Song doesn't really improve that much after level 16. You get 2 more AC, 28 more HP and +15 Skill bonuses at level 30 compared to level 16, but 16th level singing only requires 30 Perform while level 30 requires 100 :/)
If you took Paladin at 6-9th level you could get away with only 2 alignment shifts unless you decided you wanted Extra Turning or even Extra Smiting. _________________ Teaching men a lesson in combat etiquette.
Quote: Posted 08/23/05 14:42:30 (GMT) -- Kamiryn Taking four RDD levels pre-epic would increase saving throws a little bit without losing anything.
wouldn't the reflex drop a bit? bard is both will and reflex, where rdd is fort and will. 16 bard,4 pal has +11 will and reflex, +9 fort, where 12 bard,4rdd,4 pal has +13 will & +9 refl and +12 fort i think. actually, now that i look at the numbers, your idea makes alot of sense...higher fort is important for a meleeist, and will improves as well, which is nice. reflex is only handy IF i can find evasion-type granting equipment. there is a reason that ppl say you have powerful NWN coding mojo.
thanks kam for the advice...i would switch the levels as follows:
... 16)Bard12 17)RDD1 18)RDD2 Improved Expertise 19)RDD3 20)RDD4 21)Bard13 Great Charisma I 22)Bard14 23)Bard15 24)Bard16 Great Cha II 25)RDD5 ...
there we go...much better. thanks again!
-C _________________ Et Earello Endorenna utulien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.
Quote: Posted 08/23/05 14:49:26 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ Bard/Curse Song doesn't improve after level 30 & 100 Perform.
you get more HP from the song, don't you? but good point, its not much of a difference!
-C _________________ Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited By christian.schnabel on 08/23/05 15:16
Quote: Posted 08/23/05 15:08:12 (GMT) -- Amazon Queen If you took Paladin at 6-9th level you could get away with only 2 alignment shifts unless you decided you wanted Extra Turning or even Extra Smiting.
but then I could only get divine might or divine shield, not both. paladin gets turn undead at level 3, which kinda forces the alignment changes twice. to get extra turning, i would need to either take more paladin levels, or use more alignment changes. or did they change the turn undead level for pallys?
thanks for the idea though...i think that there may be some merit it in regardless...2 alignment changes would be better, actually more or less acceptable really.
-C _________________ Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
sorry, forgot about that you're right and extra Paladin levels don't add much to the build so I think its best to stay with 4 alignment changes _________________ Teaching men a lesson in combat etiquette.
You can do the following:
That's one way. You can orchestrate it a few different ways.
Also, the beauty in doing this is you now give your Paladin a 1 level buffer before and after to make the transition less rocky and more easily obtained through role-playing, as opposed to an arbitrary leveller adjusting your alignment. Further, one can actually explain that the dragon blood's manifestation causes not only physical changes, but spiritual ones as well.
I don't purport to be an expert on bard builds (I am struggling through one right now), but I thought you could take lasting inspiration as a 21st level character, not a 21st level bard (there is a difference). The grimoire seems to support this:
Lasting Inspiration Type of Feat: (Epic) General Prerequisite: Perform 25, 21st level, Bard Song Specifics: This feat allows the effects of bardic music to last ten times longer. Use: Automatic
I trust some of the builders on this site over the grimoire, but it is mostly right most of the time.
And it is important when you are trying to put together a fighter14/rdd10/bard16.
Thanks. _________________ We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender - Winston Churchill
Grimoire is wrong on that one. You can take Lasting when you have 20 Bard levels. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
That's one way. You can orchestrate it a few different ways.
Also, the beauty in doing this is you now give your Paladin a 1 level buffer before and after to make the transition less rocky and more easily obtained through role-playing, as opposed to an arbitrary leveller adjusting your alignment. Further, one can actually explain that the dragon blood's manifestation causes not only physical changes, but spiritual ones as well.
And it's only 2 shifts.
this is why you are the dwarflord and i am...well...not.
i think that this is much better. 2 alignment changes becomes downright acceptable now, and with the buffer for changes, i think that this is very playable.
thanks grizz.
-C _________________ "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
Grimoire is wrong on that one. You can take Lasting when you have 20 Bard levels.
grumble. thanks, grizz. back to the drawing board (i think you call it the learning tree).
here is the revised and much improved Draconic Bard...who is conincidentally much more draconic now as well.
1 )Bard1 Curse Song, Expertise 2 )Bard2 3 )Bard3 Still Spell 4 )Bard4 5 )Bard5 6 )RDD1 Power Attack *change alignment to lawful* 7 )Paladin1 8 )Paladin2 9 )Paladin3 Divine Might 10)RDD2 11)RDD3 12)Paladin4 Divine Shield 13)RDD4 *change alignment to neutral* 14)Bard6 15)Bard7 Improved Critical: Scimitar 16)Bard8 17)Bard9 18)Bard10 Improved Expertise 19)Bard11 20)Bard12 21)Bard13 Great Charisma I 22)Bard14 23)Bard15 24)Bard16 Great Cha II 25)RDD5 26)Bard17 27)Bard18 Great Cha III 28)Bard19 29)Bard20 30)Bard21 Lasting Inspiration 31)RDD6 32)RDD7 33)RDD8 Great Cha IV 34)RDD9 35)RDD10 36)Bard22 Great Cha V 37)Bard23 Great Cha VI 38)Bard24 39)Bard25 Great Cha VII 40)Bard26 Great Cha VIII
the only thing i was worried about was having my buffs dispelled. i though a caster level of 32 and a casting stat of 30 would make it ok, but the small drop in caster level shouldn't prove too significant, should it?
but also more powerful, with more HP, AB, and AC.
sorry, forgot about that