Interestingly, I found no matches at all for this class combination. Heh, of course if you look at some of the disadvantages of the build, there may be a reason. This build is totally feat-starved as it gets no bonus feats whatsoever. Anyway, here's an evil bugger that has some real potential if he doesn't get debuffed:
Black Skald
Playable from level 1, PvM
Bard 15/CLC 15/BG 10
Human, NE, or CE
STR 14 (26) DEX 8 CON 12 INT 12 WIS 14 (18) CHA 14
Totally reliant on buffs If he's dispelled (which will be easy enough for a high level caster), he's screwed. No Divine Might or Divine Shield, but it's easy enough to drop a couple feats and fiddle with the levelling to get them. CHA is low enough that it may not be worth it though. No real DC for offensive spells, so most of them will be useless. Low HPs. STR isn't great, although it's easy enough to pump it to 40 with his spells alone. With the spells available from both Bard and CLC, the domains become almost superfluous. I chose Magic (for Stoneskin and Ice Storm) and Protection (for Minor Globe and Energy Buffer). Just a side note: you may wantt o consider the Still Spell feat so you can cast Haste while armored.
There are advantages as well, but I think they're pretty self-evident, so I won't make a list. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Edited By griphook on 09/01/05 14:06
nice build I think I'd defnitely take Identify as 1 of my Bard spells all that UMD and no Lore I might also drop KD the build isn't Sneak Attack reliant and can use its summons to generate flank attacks anyway _________________ Teaching men a lesson in combat etiquette.
Quote: Posted 08/31/05 15:59:16 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Disadvantages:
Totally reliant on buffs If he's dispelled (which will be easy enough for a high level caster), he's screwed.
...
There are advantages as well, but I think they're pretty self-evident, so I won't make a list.
those darn spellcasters. dispelling perfectly good and well prepared buffs just because they can't fight themselves...
just out of curiousity, what are some of the advantages.
interesting class combo. looks like loads of evil fun
nice build I think I'd defnitely take Identify as 1 of my Bard spells all that UMD and no Lore
Aye. You could even drop Taunt and take Lore instead. Totally up to the player. However, with the +15 from Bard levels and the Identify spell, I think you'd have all the Lore you need.
Quote: I might also drop KD the build isn't Sneak Attack reliant and can use its summons to generate flank attacks anyway
KD isn't just about sneak attacks. An opponent that's KDed can't attack you or cast spells... I prefer my enemies laid out on their backs taking hits from me whether I'm sneak attacking or not. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
nice build I think I'd defnitely take Identify as 1 of my Bard spells all that UMD and no Lore
Aye. You could even drop Taunt and take Lore instead. Totally up to the player. However, with the +15 from Bard levels and the Identify spell, I think you'd have all the Lore you need.
Quote: I might also drop KD the build isn't Sneak Attack reliant and can use its summons to generate flank attacks anyway
KD isn't just about sneak attacks. An opponent that's KDed can't attack you or cast spells... I prefer my enemies laid out on their backs taking hits from me whether I'm sneak attacking or not.
my apologies Cin, I totally forgot the bard bonus to lore I agree keeping KD might be the best choice however if somebody did particularly want another feat I think that might be the most expendable for this build _________________ Teaching men a lesson in combat etiquette.
my apologies Cin, I totally forgot the bard bonus to lore I agree keeping KD might be the best choice however if somebody did particularly want another feat I think that might be the most expendable for this build
No apologies necessary.
To be honest, I'd probably drop Imp Crit before KD, but that's just a personal preference. I like KD, as all your attacks on a prone opponent are at +4, so you have a really good chance of landing your lower AB attacks as well once he's KDed. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Cinn,
Nice unique BG build, with great balance between the classes.
One question I have is why did you postpone Epic Prowess until level 27? Why not take it at 24?
Thanks, Kaliban _________________ Have fun storming the castle!
Its funny cinn, I did make one of these types a long time ago for a lv 20 cap server (well 20 by non-rp means). I went 10 cleric/8bg/2bard. I went this way to exploit the limited itms available AND since he was a charisma-based meleeist, to gain godly charisma bonus' (+6 before spells is godly when +2 itms are the rule).
Nice unique BG build, with great balance between the classes.
Thanks.
Quote: One question I have is why did you postpone Epic Prowess until level 27? Why not take it at 24?
Thanks, Kaliban
As far as AB goes, it's a wash, as both Epic Prowess or GRT STR will result in +1 AB at level 24. But, by taking GRT STR at level 24, you set your STR at 22, which gives you +1 AB and +1 damage over what you had the level previous (where your STR was 21). I figured also getting the +1 to damage is better than not having it (hope that makes sense). _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 09/01/05 03:42:53 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Quote: One question I have is why did you postpone Epic Prowess until level 27? Why not take it at 24?
Thanks, Kaliban
As far as AB goes, it's a wash, as both Epic Prowess or GRT STR will result in +1 AB at level 24. But, by taking GRT STR at level 24, you set your STR at 22, which gives you +1 AB and +1 damage over what you had the level previous (where your STR was 21). I figured also getting the +1 to damage is better than not having it (hope that makes sense).
That does make sense. I was guessing that was the reason but was too lazy to add up the stat points to see if Strength reached an even number with that feat
Thanks for clarifying! Kaliban _________________ Have fun storming the castle!
Bloody hell! I screwed up when I was copy/pasting the final build.
Stats should read:
STR 14 (26)
and the final levels are supposed to be:
36)CLC15: GRT STR IV (25)/ WIS (18) 37)Bard15 38)BG8 39)BG9: Armor Skin 40)BG10: STR (26)
Oh, Mr. Griphook! Paging Mr. Griphook! _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Done
I would change one Blackguard level to Bard, which would net +1 AC, +4 HP, +1 Will save and +1 Skill Point bonus. Not huge, but I think it's worth it. And you've Curse Song. These changes obviously benefit that, too
I would change one Blackguard level to Bard, which would net +1 AC, +4 HP, +1 Will save and +1 Skill Point bonus. Not huge, but I think it's worth it. And you've Curse Song. These changes obviously benefit that, too
Not a bad idea. The build would only lose 1d6 sneak - no great loss. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
between the big three epic combat feats (EWF, Epic Prowess, and Armor Skin), I prefer taking Armor Skin before Epic Prowess under the theory that AB and AC are sort of mirrors to each other and Armor Skin = 2 to 1 better. Does your analysis differ (obviously it does) and why?
Quote: Posted 09/01/05 19:05:27 (GMT) -- Ithacan
between the big three epic combat feats (EWF, Epic Prowess, and Armor Skin), I prefer taking Armor Skin before Epic Prowess under the theory that AB and AC are sort of mirrors to each other and Armor Skin = 2 to 1 better. Does your analysis differ (obviously it does) and why?
My thought is Armor Class is much easier to obtain than AB, so I always try to pump AB before AC. Considering you have 5 types of AC, you can potentially boost ac over AB at a 5:1 ratio. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
you raise some good points and some questions that i have had for awhile.
dodge - boots natural - amulets armor - armor, shields, and bracers (do they stack?) deflection - rings, cloaks, belts what is the fifth? and on what equipment can you put it?
I do know that I have built and played on PW's and I have never achieved (or seen, except maybe in a caster build) a 2:1 ratio between my AC and AB. More like a 46 AB to a 56 AC.
Quote: Posted 09/01/05 19:45:43 (GMT) -- Ithacan
you raise some good points and some questions that i have had for awhile.
dodge - boots natural - amulets armor - armor, shields, and bracers (do they stack?) deflection - rings, cloaks, belts what is the fifth? and on what equipment can you put it?
I do know that I have built and played on PW's and I have never achieved (or seen, except maybe in a caster build) a 2:1 ratio between my AC and AB. More like a 46 AB to a 56 AC.
Shield would be the fifth (I think it should be obvious what equipment can you put it in). And he said potential. If you had a ring, a shield, boots, an amulet and an armour all with +5 AC and a weapon with +5 Enhancement, what would the ratio be?
And he said potential. If you had a ring, a shield, boots, an amulet and an armour all with +5 AC and a weapon with +5 Enhancement, what would the ratio be?
Well, this bears more analysis than that. I think you have to look at the ultimate ratio to determine which has more value. Armor Skin having 2 points and Epic Prowess having 1 would indicate that the game designers, at least, feel it is more important to have AB than AC. I do, too (you'll note that I take EWF before Armor Skin) but not at a 2:1 ratio.
Further, I am but one man and can only attack one target at a time, so my AB (and the incremental advantage of a point alloted to AB) is alloted out accordingly (one hit at a time). I can be surrounded by, say, eight combatants, all of whom have to deal with my AC. So if I get four attacks per round and each of them gets, say, three attacks per round, that is a ratio of 4:24 or 1:6. How do you feel now about Armor Skin?
I wasn't attacking Cinn -- good grief, what standing would I have for that -- I was trying to flesh out the analysis behind his choice because, well, I respect him as a builder.
And I still would like to know if the AC bonus you can put on a bracer stacks with the AC bonus you can put on armor.
Cheers.
Quote: Posted 09/01/05 20:33:33 (GMT) -- Ithacan
Well, this bears more analysis than that. I think you have to look at the ultimate ratio to determine which has more value. Armor Skin having 2 points and Epic Prowess having 1 would indicate that the game designers, at least, feel it is more important to have AB than AC. I do, too (you'll note that I take EWF before Armor Skin) but not at a 2:1 ratio.
Further, I am but one man and can only attack one target at a time, so my AB (and the incremental advantage of a point alloted to AB) is alloted out accordingly (one hit at a time). I can be surrounded by, say, eight combatants, all of whom have to deal with my AC. So if I get four attacks per round and each of them gets, say, three attacks per round, that is a ratio of 4:24 or 1:6. How do you feel now about Armor Skin?
It's not as simple a matter as just ratios though. You have to take into account the dice roll needed for you to hit your opponents and for your opponents to hit you. Since you can generally get AC-boosting gear/spells easier (by this I mean you've got 5 types that you can boost) than AB, it's usually better to get your AB up in order to be sure you can land as many hits as possible. In a scenario like you describe, even if your AC is through the roof, if you've got 24 attacks against you every round, you're going to get hit regardless (there will be 20s rolled by your opponents for autohits).
In almost all cases, it's harder to raise your AB to a significant degree than your AC. In fact, if I'm strapped for epic feats, Armor Skin is usually the first one I look at dropping. That's just my personal take on it. Others (like yourself) feel the AC boost is of more value. Whichever you like, I say take that one first.
Quote: I wasn't attacking Cinn -- good grief, what standing would I have for that -- I was trying to flesh out the analysis behind his choice because, well, I respect him as a builder.
For your benefit, and that of FinneousPJ, I never felt you were attacking me. I took the question in the spirit with which it was intended: just trying to see the underlying reasoning for taking EP before AS.
Quote: And I still would like to know if the AC bonus you can put on a bracer stacks with the AC bonus you can put on armor.
Cheers.
No. The only type of AC that stacks is Dodge (which you get on boots). For all other types, the highest overrides the lowest of the same type. In your example, if you had plate mail +4 and put on Bracers of Armor +3, the bracers would do nothing, as they both have the same enhancement type (armor), and the +4 on the plate would override the +3 on the bracers. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Ocasionally Armour Skin might rise in priority If you use a 2-hander or dual-wielding no shield option (unless the Shield spell would work in those circumstances) I often find myself sacrificing Amulets of Natural Armour for something more useful like the Amulets of Health series but admittedly Barkskin potions are fairly common _________________ Teaching men a lesson in combat etiquette.
