basically designed to be a good counter measure against assassins and rogue. sneak and crit immunity coupled with high listen ability and good melee presence make this char to be feared, even by groups of stealth sneakers. built in sneak immune summons and a few limited charisma abilities round out this char. not really a terribly strong melee presence alone against much else than thieves and cut-throats, although not too bad in most situations.


Bard 14, PM 16, CoT 10

Playable from level 1, PvM.

Human, anything neutral and unlawful

STR 16 to 28
DEX 14
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 14 to 16

i boosted str to get a 40 AB, and cha to get another 3 level spell per day, and also to be able (with spells and equipment)

to make use of CoT's cha-based abilities. also gives boost to cha-related skills.

1 )B1 Strong Soul, Luck of Heroes
2 )B2
3 )B3 Curse Song
4 )B4
5 )B5
6 )B6 Still Spell
7 )B7
8 )B8
9 )PM1 WF: Spear
10)PM2
11)CoT1
12)CoT2 Impr Crit, Blind Fight
13)CoT3
14)CoT4 KD
15)CoT5 Great Fortitude
16)CoT6 IKD
17)CoT7
18)CoT8 Power Attack, Cleave
19)CoT9
20)CoT10 Expertise

21)PM3 EWF
22)PM4
23)PM5
24)PM6 GCha I
25)PM7
26)PM8
27)PM9 GCha II
28)PM10
29)B9
30)B10 GStr I
31)PM11
32)PM12
33)B11 GStr II
34)B12
35)B13
36)PM13 EP, Epic Energy Resistance: Fire
37)PM14
38)PM15
39)PM16 Epic Fortitude, Epic Spell: Epic Warding
40)B14


AB: 17Per-Epic + 10Epic + 2EWF + 1WF + 1EP + 9Str = 40/35/30/25

easily boosted to mid-40's or higher with spells and songs, which do not use their usefullness with good weapons. using something other than focused weapon results in AB of 37.

damage: 1d8 + 13(19-20/x3)

add in war cry, divine grace and bard song for a +8 boost (doesn't last long)

AC: 10 + 2 Dex + 8 Tumble + 10 PM = 30 naked

quickly boosted with songs, spells and expertise to reach a functional 48 (by functional i mean that using curse song lowers their AB). if this isn't enough, remember to add in +5 from medium armor and maybe switch spear to a mace and shield for another +3. that tops out at around, functionally, 56. coupled with divine grace/ghostly visage/ethereal visage/improved invisibility/epic warding & wounding whispers and they might consider trying to attack someone else. also possible to wear some nice robes and not have to still spells. UMD of 15 should be good enough to wear some nice monk or wizard robes.

HP:100 CoT + 84 Bard + 24 PM + 108 PM = 316 max

really low for a melee char. boots of hardiness/striding or amulets of con are really helpful.

saves:
fort: +4EF + 1LoH +1SS +2GF +2Bard +7CoT +3PM + 10Epic + 5DG = 33
refl: +1LoH +6Bard +7CoT +2Dex + 10Epic + 5DG = 31
will: +1LoH +1SS +6Bard +3PM - 1Will + 10 Epic + 5DG = 25

fort isn't bad. add in some con equipment and/or fort increasing and even really strong assassins can't use death attack. even if they could, you are eventually immune to paralysis, hold and stun. decent reflex as well, so casting UMD spells at you isn't a great plan either. will is mediocre, but not too shabby. some equipment to boost saving throws is a big help.

skills: 56 Bard + 52 PM&CoT + 80 Int + 40Human + 21First level = 249
concentration 43 (43)
discipline 43 (52)
tumble 40 (42)
spellcraft 43 (45)
spot 5 (4)
listen 43 (42)
perform 18 (21)
umd 12 (15)
taunt 2 (5)

listen gains at least a +1 bonus from spot, for a working level of 43. adding clairaudience, amplify to get 73. add in bard song to get 75, and curse song to lower move silently by 2, resulting in a detection factor of 77. holding still adds another functional +5 to listen, topping out at 82. should be pretty hard to slink in the shadows. coupled with see invisibility and problems are solved.
taunt might still work on rogues and assassins since they usually have low concentrations and low constitutions. not much of a difference, but every little bit helps. could also put these two points into anything else, like persuade, lore or heal.

Bard Song bonuses
+2 Attack
+3 Damage
+1 Will
+1 Fort
+1 Refl
+16 HP
+3 AC
+2 Skills

Cure Song Minuses
-2 Attack
-3 Damage
-1 on all saving throws
-16 HP
-3 AC
-2 Skills

when using Bard song and curse song together, you get an effective/functional +5 to AC, +5 to AB, +3 to damage, 3/- damage reduction, +16 HP, +4 on listen checks, slight saving throw boost, immediate 16 HP damage on opponent. not to shabby. totaly 7 combined uses per day, or 14 mixed uses. doesn't last long, but with enough uses per day to be sufficient.


Pale Master perks
3 different undead summons, all of which are sneak immune
undead graft paralysis
deathless master touch
innate darkvision
extra AC
extra HPs
immunity to hold, paralysis, stun, and eventually critical hits and sneak attacks


CoT perks
divine wrath grants +3 to attack, damage and saving throws and damage reduction 5/+1 for at least 3 rounds (more with cha equipment and eagle's splendour)
smite evil adds min +3 to attack and +10 damage against evil chars
lay on hands heals 30 hps minimum
innate saving throw bonuses


Favored Spells:
1 amplify, mage armor, protection from alignment, grease
2 bull's strength, eagle's splendour, ghostly visage, see invisibility
3 clairaudience, haste, wounding whispers, find traps
4 improved invis, war cry, neutralize poison, cure critical wounds
5 ethereal visage, greater dispelling, summon creature v


thanks to Haunted Hymnsinger of Torm by MauvaisGuillame and Twisted Templar by yrtsns, and Amazon Queen for the general idea

for this build. thanks as well to all those who contributed on my post about assassin-fighting builds. comments and suggestions are always welcome.


-c
_________________
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."

Edited By christian.schnabel on 09/12/05 05:10

Christian, I believe your PM levels will open up your level 6 slots for you, so you can metamagic your level 5 spells into those slots. Doesn't make a lot of difference, but I thought I'd mention it.

Nifty weapon choice.

I'd probably opt for the sickle for a couple reasons:

1) It's able to be keened with the Bard's Keen Edge spell.

2) It's really, really different.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't get the 1.5x STR bonus to damage like the spear does.

Interesting build.
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It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!! I'd add Ultravision to the spell list for those pesky Assassins casting Darkness. Not only a good anti-Assassin build looks like a decent all-round character too
_________________
Teaching men a lesson in combat etiquette. Since you have such low HP, why not swap Strong Soul for Toughness?
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Now is my day's work done;
I'll take good breath:
Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of
blood and death. first of all, to Cinnabar Din. that is what i thought as well, but when i tried leveling the character, i found that i only had level 5 spells. i leveled this in the novice to epic char mod. if someone else would try this and let me know, i would appreciate it. i was hoping to get the 6th level spells, but for some reason it didn't seem to happen. i considered using a sickle, but found that with the upped strength, i wanted to deal as much damage as possible. but taking keen edge would have dropped another of my spells, all of which i kinda wanted to keep. also, a naked ac of 30, more with armor, left me thinking that defense was adequate. those facts in mind, if you wanna change some spell for keen edge, then sickle and shield becomes a very nice choice. good advice Cin, as always.

to Amazon Queen. you are right, again. replace grease, with its mild usefulness, to ultravision. i forgot about that little darkness thing. with ultravision, you now neutralize another advantage assassins have. good advice.

to Finneous PJ. looking back, i think that you're idea is valid. HPs is what this char needs. later on, as you get more abilities and help from equipment, you are alright, but i think that a drop in saving throws, which are decent, is worth the extra HPs. the real reason i took all of these saving throw boosting feats was to bump my fort save as high as possible until i become immune to death attack. with that in mind, i think that i should replace Epic Fortitude with something else. Armor Skin, Epic Will, Epic Skill Focus: Listen/Discipline, or even Epic Toughness would all be good choices. thanks for the advice. can never have enough HP for a melee char, even with a nice AC and concealment/DR spells.

thanks to all for their advice. any further comments are always welcome.

-c
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"You cannot pass!" The other thing that might be worth considering since this isn't a sneaky character and has a pretty decent AC is dropping DEX to 10, increasing CON to 14, taking Heavy Armour Proficiency and netting +80 HP that way.
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Teaching men a lesson in combat etiquette. Apologies Christian, my bad. You need at least 16 Bard levels to open up the level 6 slots. I was thinking the build was 16 Bard instead of 14. Sorry about that.
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It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 09/12/05 23:28:11 (GMT) -- Amazon Queen

The other thing that might be worth considering since this isn't a sneaky character and has a pretty decent AC is dropping DEX to 10, increasing CON to 14, taking Heavy Armour Proficiency and netting +80 HP that way.

that was one way to go, but i figured that AC was more important for this type of char, and i wanted the AC to hit 30 without anything else added on. also, i don't like to take armor feats if i can help it. just sorta makes the char unique. also, with full plate you need +1 in dex, presumably from a spell if not from equipment, so the AC increase is only a 1 point different in plate. in addition, this char, thanks to UMD, can also use robes (ones with true seeing for example) and some hide/move silently equipment to act as a basic stealther. i just thought that this made the char more versatile, but i think that you are right. more HP is really what this build needs. adding in toughness instead of heavey armor would net that, though, without dropping AC, so perhaps that is the way to go.

-c
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"Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."
Quote: Posted 09/13/05 00:42:46 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din

Apologies Christian, my bad. You need at least 16 Bard levels to open up the level 6 slots. I was thinking the build was 16 Bard instead of 14. Sorry about that.

right, but doesn't taking PM levels increase your levels of caster which open? if you take a few levels of wizard, and then several PM levels, given that you have a high enough int you can get access to higher spell levels (need to scribe spells to them , but you have the option). i thought something similar would happen with bard, but i suppose that is not the case. i haven't tried a sorc/pm yet, so i dunno if this is a charisma based thing or not.

if anyone has more understanding on this, i would like to hear it. if there is a way to open those level 6 slots with a similar build, that would be icing on the cake.

-c
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"You cannot pass!"
Quote: Posted 09/13/05 16:38:06 (GMT) -- christian.schnabel

Quote: Posted 09/13/05 00:42:46 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din

Apologies Christian, my bad. You need at least 16 Bard levels to open up the level 6 slots. I was thinking the build was 16 Bard instead of 14. Sorry about that.

right, but doesn't taking PM levels increase your levels of caster which open? if you take a few levels of wizard, and then several PM levels, given that you have a high enough int you can get access to higher spell levels (need to scribe spells to them , but you have the option). i thought something similar would happen with bard, but i suppose that is not the case. i haven't tried a sorc/pm yet, so i dunno if this is a charisma based thing or not.

if anyone has more understanding on this, i would like to hear it. if there is a way to open those level 6 slots with a similar build, that would be icing on the cake.

-c

It's not a charisma based thing. It's just that casters that can't learn from scrolls never get the chance to choose the spells to fill out those levels. Even if you take a level of sorcerer or bard later on, the game will still only look at your sorc/bard levels in terms of how many new spells you learn during leveling and what levels they come from. So you'll never be able to learn 6th level spells without 16 levels of bard.

However, what I am not sure of is if you can still metamagic lower level spells into the spell slots you earn from PM levels. So, even though you don't have 6th level spells, you could fill those slots with metamagic versions of lower level spells. It would seem to me like it should work, as you should have the spell slots even if you don't have the spells themselves. But then again, there are a lot of things should work but don't, and I've never made a PM myself so I can't say for sure. The one thing I am positive of is that you definitely cannot learn 6th level spells if your bard (or sorcerer) levels are insufficient for them.

Steve

Edit: Oh, and just a minor point of information. I've seen a number of people refer to the "scribe scroll" ability as the ability that lets wizards learn from scrolls. That's actually the opposite of what it is. Scribe Scroll is an ability all casters have (get the feat for free at level 1), which allows them to take spells that they know and turn them into a scroll (at an XP and gold cost), not the other way around.

Edited By Stravinsky00 on 09/13/05 19:51

Quote: Posted 09/13/05 19:46:45 (GMT) -- Stravinsky00

...

So you'll never be able to learn 6th level spells without 16 levels of bard.

...

However, what I am not sure of is if you can still metamagic lower level spells into the spell slots you earn from PM levels.

...


thanks stravinsky, for that correct, yet saddening information. i tried to use stilled 5th level spells, but it seems as though they are not there. i am not sure if this is conclusive, but there you have it.

oh well, the only spells that are really worth it are dirge and energy buffer, and energy buffer doesn't last very long (in comparison to some of the other elemental protection spells). a scroll of protection/endure elements lasts 24 hours (or it should) and abosorbs decent elemental damage.

thanks for the help.

-c
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Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Edited By christian.schnabel on 09/13/05 22:19