--Introduction:

"Listen!" said the orc liutenant to his commander, "I hear something... seems like a music".
"Yeah, it is...but... it's changing! Ah what a painful sound!!"
"I feel weak...but now the music is gone, still I feel weak. I can hear only silence now."
"Argh! Help!" Zaap! Cuuuut!
"what the --" Riiiip!

Silence.

--End of introduction.

Playable from level 1 - 40 PvM

This char is substantially a dex-based melee. The standard combat tactic is to sneak on the enemy, curse, IKD spam and deal severe damage with 10d6 sneak attack. Crippling strike adds to that.
He has the bard song and many spells to help him accomplish this: improved invisibility, greater magic weapon, ultravision, haste, war cry, keen edge...
He 's strong on defense, with great AC, imp. invisibility and epic dodge.
Bard song gives +5 AC and +8 to skills, and curse gives -5 AC and -8 to skills at all enemies. With -8 to discipline it's easy to knockdown enemies!

Cons:
-he has very few hp. You rely on not getting hit in first place, improved evasion, epic dodge, ...
-saves are pretty low (fort and will)

But let's get into some details:

Race: Halfling (it is possible to use human or elf, tough for the latter you need a different lvl-up to avoid xp penalties)

Alignment: any non-lawful (and who wanna be lawful, anyway? )

Starting stats (final):

Str - 10
Dex - 18 (30)
Con - 12
Int - 14
Wis - 8
Cha - 14 (16)

1 rogue1 Knockdown, +1 dex
2 bard1
3 bard2 weapon finesse
4 bard3 +1 dex
5 bard4
6 bard5 weapon focus(dagger**)
7 rogue2
8 bard6 +1 cha
9 bard7 curse song
10 bard8
11 bard9
12 rogue3 imp. knockdown, +1 cha
13 bard10
14 bard11
15 bard12 imp.critical(dagger**)
16 bard13 +1 dex
17 rogue4
18 bard14 extend spell
19 bard15
20 bard16 +1 dex
21 rogue5 epic weapon focus (dagger**)
22 rogue6
23 rogue7
24 bard17 great dex 1, +1 dex
25 rogue8
26 rogue9
27 rogue10 improved evasion, armor skin
28 bard18 +1 dex
29 rogue11
30 rogue12 great dex 2
31 rogue13 defensive roll
32 rogue14 +1 dex
33 rogue15 great dex 3
34 bard19
35 rogue16 epic dodge
36 rogue17 great dex 4,+1 dex
37 rogue18
38 rogue19 crippling strike
39 bard20 lasting impression
40 ranger1 dual wield, epic prowess, +1dex

** dagger is the only choice for halfling, sadly. Kukri would be better, but I'd have to drop improved critical to fit exotic proficiency, and that's obviously just not worth it. If you're human or elf, you could use rapier or handaxe(remember keen edge).

Stats:

AB:

25 (BAB) + 10 (dex) + 3 (focii) + 1 prowess +1 small stature = 40 naked.
With bard song (which you'll always have, by the way) it's 42.
with long term spells (GMW) it's 47.
with extended war cry (40 rounds) it's 49.
with maxxed dex (you also have cat's grace to help) it's 55. Not bad at all.
If you curse your enemy, it's 5 more since his AC will be 5 lower: equivalent AB 60. Oh, remember taunt is an option...
It's possible to dualwield, thanks to 1 ranger level. Maybe when enemy is knockdowned...

AC:

31 naked. (+1 from small stature)
With +5 items (boots, robe, amulet, shield, ring/cloak) and buffed (long term buffs, +12 to dex) it's 74(including 40 round haste). Don't forget e-dodge and that enemies gets -2 AB from curse song.

Skills:

346 points, more than enough to max 8 skills. I took:
Discipline
Tumble
Perform
Spellcraft
Hide
MS
UMD
Taunt
Swap taunt for concentration if you feel like casting a lot in battle.

Saves:

here's the bad part, they aren't great.
Unbuffed, and naked:
fort:18
refl:35
will:21

BUT

-bard song gives +3 to will and +2 to fort and reflex.
Against spell:
-You have access to clarity spell
and
-You enjoy +10 vs spells thanks to 52 spellcraft (buffed by song).

Only problem should be dev crit. Against a dev critter, you must play smart, and use dirge,curse,crippling strike before attempting to go toe to toe.

HP:

Max should be 19*6 + 20*6 + 10 +40 = 286
Bard song gives some more. You need every con-booster you can put your hands on...

Last thoughts:

I think this build is fun to play, easy to level up, and quite strong.
In a world without dev crit, you might even want to try this in PvP. Though you'd need some twinking, like taking ESF:discipline and such.

As this is my first posted build here, give me some feedback! I'm sure there's room to improve this...

Edited By griphook on 09/16/05 00:47

Nifty.

Taking Ranger at 40 makes for a long wait to get dual-wield. If playing through from level 1, I'd consider taking 4 levels of Ranger pre-epic to get the extra attack per round. That'd drop your Sneak Attack a bit and you'd lose a Rogue bonus feat through, so it is a tradeoff. And of course, doing the Ranger levels early means you don't get to max Ranger class skills at 40, if that matters to you.

Depending on your play style, Lasting Inspiration might be nice, but requires an extra Bard level. That plus the additional Ranger levels would put you at Bard 21/Rogue 15/Ranger 4. No worse on the Sneak Attack than Rogue 16 would be, but losing two Rogue bonus feats hurts. Hmmm, maybe Lasting Inspiration isn't all that important after all...

I did a Bard/Rogue/Ranger build too, but I went a lot heavier on Bard. Too heavy, according to many people, and they're probably right. But a 30th level Bardsong is a thing of beauty!

Edit - here's a link to my build: Click Here
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Disarm? That means chopping the other guy's arms off, right?

Edited By bpirkle on 09/13/05 06:18

Thanks for the feedback!

In order... As you say, dual wield at 40 is a pain. In fact, the real reason I took 1 ranger level was the bonus feat, more than dualwield. Having to choose between fighter and ranger, I chose ranger: same feat, but the ranger gives more skill points and more class skills.
To get 4 ApR I'd need to go at least 20 bard/16 rogue/4 ranger(fighter).
Problem is, you get XP penalty no matter what, and since this build is for PvM mostly I couldn't afford it.

Lasting impression requires bard 20. I'm sure, I built this char in test and I took the feat. I think the exact requirements are 20 uses of bard song per day...but don't quote me here.
I find lasting imp. really useful, because you can save most of your bard song uses for cursing, and they are never enough!

I looked at your build, it's nice. I thought about lvl 30 song at first, when designing this build, but decided that 100 perform wuold be too much gear (and world) dependant...Your build is great for partying, it's harder to solo because it misses what every other dex based bard build misses: damage output. I tried to compensate with heavy sneak attack presence and many ways to provide them: stealth, IKD + curse song namely.

Thanks again for feedback! Welcome to your first post!

Interesting build. A few thoughts...

1.You say you couldn't drop Imp. Crit for Exotic Weapons....I believe Grizz has argued that for a sneak-attack based character crit range doesn't matter. He even suggested fighting with 1d1 twigs

2. Since your sneak attacks are dependent on Knockdown, (and because I think they make better Rogues) I'd suggest going Elf to avoid the small-size Knockdown penalty. You would incur an XP penalty pre-epic while your Rogue and Bard levels were off (eg. Rogue 8/Bard 12). Going Elf would also permit focus in Rapier or Short Sword.

3. I don't like that one level of Ranger so late in the build just for Dual Wield. You could take Fighter instead to get Imp. Two Weapon fighting and boost your pre-epic AB. What about going Dwarf Rogue 16/Bard 20/Fighter 4? (Pre-Epic: Rogue 8/Bard 8/Fighter 4)? (Of course that would impact your Bardic abilities with a borked Charisma but you could avoid the Elf's early XP penalty and have a Dwarf's late XP penalty....)

4. On a different track, you could ditch Ranger and take Shadow Dancer at level 21 and use HIPS to milk IKD and Sneak Attacks.

5. Or, there is always the Bard/Shadow Dancer/Black Guard route too

Kaliban

PS - Note to bpickle: You can get Lasting Inspiration with only 20 levels of Bard (eg. take Bard 20 at level 39).
_________________
This space for rent

Edited By Kaliban99 on 09/13/05 13:34

Quote: Posted 09/13/05 13:19:45 (GMT) -- Kaliban99

Welcome to your first post!

Interesting build. A few thoughts...

1.You say you couldn't drop Imp. Crit for Exotic Weapons....I believe Grizz has argued that for a sneak-attack based character crit range doesn't matter. He even suggested fighting with 1d1 twigs

2. Since your sneak attacks are dependent on Knockdown, (and because I think they make better Rogues) I'd suggest going Elf to avoid the small-size Knockdown penalty. You would incur an XP penalty pre-epic while your Rogue and Bard levels were off (eg. Rogue 8/Bard 12). Going Elf would also permit focus in Rapier or Short Sword.

3. I don't like that one level of Ranger so late in the build just for Dual Wield. You could take Fighter instead to get Imp. Two Weapon fighting and boost your pre-epic AB. What about going Dwarf Rogue 16/Bard 20/Fighter 4? (Pre-Epic: Rogue 8/Bard 8/Fighter 4)? (Of course that would impact your Bardic abilities with a borked Charisma but you could avoid the Elf's early XP penalty and have a Dwarf's late XP penalty....)

4. On a different track, you could ditch Ranger and take Shadow Dancer at level 21 and use HIPS to milk IKD and Sneak Attacks.

5. Or, there is always the Bard/Shadow Dancer/Black Guard route too

Kaliban

PS - Note to bpickle: You can get Lasting Inspiration with only 20 levels of Bard (eg. take Bard 20 at level 39).

thanks for feedback! I'll give some reasons...

1)If I take imp crit(dagger) I fight with a 1d4 (17-20/*2) weapon.
If I take exotic prof instead of imp.crit I fight with a 1d4(18-20/*2) weapon (kukri). That's why the dagger with improved critical is better: same damage and multiplier, and bigger critical threat.

2) Going elf is something I really thought about.
By going elf you would:
-use rapier or hand axe (remember keen edge) instead of dagger
-get no malus on the knockdown roll
Cons are:
-xp penalty (or level in different way, which hurts the build, imho
-you lose 1ab, 1ac, 1 to saves from halfling bonuses (size, and racial luck).

it's a close call, and probably a matter of personal preference, personally I never played halfling and this was my attempt

3) I've already explained this, however... Last level of ranger gives me: 1 feat (epic prowess) and dual wield. It's better than a single fighter level because you get more skill pnts, better skillset (hide and move silently), and dual wield is a bonus.
This build will wear a large shield, it only gives -2 to armor check and gives 2 AC plus any bonus it may have. Dualwielding is an option to use should you found that useful, example: you're fighting a lich (low ac), and you don't need AC yourself, cause he's a spellcaster: swap to dual wield, lose some AC, but gain damage output.

Taking 4 fighter preepic and going 20 bard, 16 rogue, 4 fighter is doable, but XP penalty is unavoidable, sadly. Going dwarf cuts charisma which I need for casting bardic spells (and song btw). Better to go human in this case and live with xp penalty.

4) That's where this build was born. Unluckily, I couldn't fit in dodge and mobility in the preepic progression. Maybe you could go human, drop improved critical, and take SD at 21...but you lose 2 AB, 2 AC, 1 to all saves (2 to ref) and 1 epic feat (crippling strike, maybe) over the original halfling build...hard call.

5) It's a good way to put that cha you have to good use to boost saves (a shame you can't make pally/bards ...). But it's basicly another build: you have better BAB, but you miss e-dodge, crippling strike, ... Also you need 13 str for the blackguard prerequisites (cleave) which hits dex or con...

keep comments coming!
Quote: Posted 09/13/05 07:41:41 (GMT) -- Arfra
Lasting impression requires bard 20. I'm sure, I built this char in test and I took the feat.

Ahh, okay. My bad. I should know never to trust my memory on things like that!
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Disarm? That means chopping the other guy's arms off, right? As for the dagger vs kukri thing. A bard can get keen edgae spell, which will get you 15-20 crit range with kukri's. I f you have easy access to keen weapons, they will be even, 15-20, so it will truly be only personal preference.
Quote: Posted 09/15/05 06:17:08 (GMT) -- Grimnir77

As for the dagger vs kukri thing. A bard can get keen edgae spell, which will get you 15-20 crit range with kukri's. I f you have easy access to keen weapons, they will be even, 15-20, so it will truly be only personal preference.

Very good point, kukri is indeed better even without improved critical..

thanks for feedback! Shouldn't that be 12-20 if the kukris are keened? 18-20 without Imp. Crit (crit range of 3). Imp crit doubles it to 15-20 (crit range of 6). Add Keen on top of that and it becomes 3x normal range 12-20 (crit range of 9).
Quote: Posted 09/15/05 08:43:07 (GMT) -- Jennalee

Shouldn't that be 12-20 if the kukris are keened? 18-20 without Imp. Crit (crit range of 3). Imp crit doubles it to 15-20 (crit range of 6). Add Keen on top of that and it becomes 3x normal range 12-20 (crit range of 9).

If imp crit could be fitted, but as the builder stated it can't if you take exotic weapon prof. If only he'd taken Ranger 1st level, then he could pick it as the first level feat . I really don't see the point of dual-wielding since you don't get ITWF and no main fighter class pre-epic so poor AB and dual-wielding would just make that worse :S. I say screw the Ranger and take bard last level .

Edited By Jennalee on 09/15/05 10:59

Quote: Posted 09/15/05 10:52:34 (GMT) -- Jennalee

If only he'd taken Ranger 1st level, then he could pick it as the first level feat . I really don't see the point of dual-wielding since you don't get ITWF and no main fighter class pre-epic so poor AB and dual-wielding would just make that worse :S. I say screw the Ranger and take bard last level .

This build is not designed to dual wield...It has dual wield as a side effect, and so you can use it. But you should not, since it's better to keep your shield up, in most cases.
Also, if I take ranger at first level, I would get a favored enemy, yes, but not a bonus feat. Also I'd lose lots of skill points, and will gain no AB.
As a side note, this char has NOT a poor AB... naked and unbuffed AB is 40. With song, +12 dex, GMW and war cry AB becomes 55. With curse you give enemy AC -5 ... it's not a low AB, I feel.
Can't take bard last level, I'd miss lasting impression. I'll just be quiet then pays to read a bit more before opening your mouth.