*feats which do not affect the integrity of the build
AB (rapier) 43/38/33/28 AC (naked): 31 (35 in DS) AC (tower shield): 34 (39 in DS) HP: 500 (580 in DS) Skill points: 286
Fort: 24 (30 vs Spells) +2 in DS Ref: 30 (36 vs Spells) +2 in DS Will: 20 (26 (Vs Spells) +2 in DS
UMD 42 Hide 43 (30 required for SC) Move Silently 43 Tumble 40 Discipline 43 Spellcraft 20 33 skill points left over
The idea behind it is to have a dwarven defender with decent DR and SCV. Pity I couldn't squeeze in epic dodge, I'll try something on these lines using less rogue and dropping fighter levels in favour of shadow dancer in a future post. The build is DEX based of course, so it will have problems in damage output against crit immune creatures, but UMD allows alternative damage dealing solutions while DR 15 and SCV keep you alive.
Advantages 1) Decent AB (43), and good critical range (15-20) which can be improved by a keen rapier
2) Decent naked AC (31)
3) Good amount of HP
4) UMD, stealth and rogue skills as you see fit
5) DR 15 and Sc V: you get hit only half the times and when you do you take SOME edge off the damage
6) Defensive Stance 11/day: +2 STR, *4 CON, *2 saves, *4 dodge AC. The concealed wall can keep his ground
7) 8d6 sneak attack, to be delivered via stealth and/or IKD
8) Improved evasion coupled with a good ref save against spells
Disadvantages
1) Moderate to low saves (will) but with a decent bonus against spells (thanks to dwarven heritage and spellcraft ranks)
2) No crippling strike, slippery mind or other rogue bonus feats (only improved evasion)
3) No epic dodge
4) Low damage output against crit immunes: needs to acquire STR boosting items
5) No WS/EWS
6) A bit feat starved, especially in epic levels
By dropping 3 lvls of DwD I could get blinding speed at the cost of armour skin and 3 DR (and -1/day defensive stance). What do you think, is it worth it?
Please, give some feedback on this build. I think it's not bad, but it's also my first one, so I may have overlooked something.
.... .... .... .... .... griphook ..Added missing feat _________________ Stand and fight, live by your heart Always one more try, I'm not afraid to die Stand and fight, say what you feel Born with a Heart of Steel!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 03/26/08 23:33
Nicely done. Indeed a pity you couldn't slip Epic Dodge into the build. You might consider dropping SC V in favor of ED. 40% concealment is still very effective.
As for Blinding Speed: I'd say unless you're playing in an environment where Haste is not at all available, then don't bother.
You've also missed a DwD bonus feat (level 22 DwD at character level 40). _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 09/25/05 03:29:27 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Nicely done. Indeed a pity you couldn't slip Epic Dodge into the build. You might consider dropping SC V in favor of ED. 40% concealment is still very effective.
The problem is you'd actually have to drop two self concealment feats. You need to defensive roll as well to get Epic Dodge. My guess is that's why he didn't go for it. 50% concealment vs. 30% concealment and Epic Dodge...hrm, still not sure which I'd go for honestly.
Steve
Good catch on that Steve. I forgot the Def Roll requirement. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
if you want to see what the dwarflord has to say about builds like this check out my build, the Melee Void, a 22 DD and 18 Rogue. he recommends a slightly different leveling (from mine and yours, but closer to yours) than yours here, but you should be able to get epic dodge, sc iv and still have 12 DR. just an idea.
i also recommend searching with pulse caps search engine. it can help you develop a character more easily and give great advice without having to wait for further posting.
enjoy!
-c _________________ Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Thanks Cinnabar for pointing out the missing feat, I forgot to type in Armor Skin at lvl 40. It's already calculated in the naked AC though, just forgot to type it in the leveling schedule.
Steve, yeah, you're right. I didn't go for epic dodge cause it means SC3. I could probably drop 3 lvls of DwD and go SC4 and ED (loosing armor skin). It's the same number of feats but you need a rogue bonus feat for defensive roll. I guess it's a matter of personal preferences, so go for it if you feel
I'll check out your build chris, thanks
Epic Dodge will make your SC5 a minimum of 2 times more effective against your last attacker or current target.
Even if he can hit you on a 2 with his first attack and has 4 attacks per round.
With SC5 you get hit, on average, 23 times in 20 rounds With ED/SC5 you will get hit,on average, 9 times in 20 rounds
ED is made that much more effective when combined with SC due to the way in which they stack.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Chris, I checked out your build. It seems I made something very similar to your melee void, sorry ops I apologize for posting something already seen and, more importantly, already developed by someone else
Anyhow, differently from your build I went with two figther lvls preepic to improve AB (+1) and get two more feats (I chose iron will and blind fighting in my case, but can be anything else...expertise, imp expertise maybe?)
So what do you think, is it better to have SC5 or SC3 and ED with 15 DR, or else SC4 and ED but only 12 DR (and no armor skin)? Syrath, I would be glad if you could point out the mathemetics for the best solution _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Chris, I checked out your build. It seems I made something very similar to your melee void, sorry ops I apologize for posting something already seen and, more importantly, already developed by someone else
...
So what do you think, is it better to have SC5 or SC3 and ED with 15 DR, or else SC4 and ED but only 12 DR (and no armor skin)? Syrath, I would be glad if you could point out the mathemetics for the best solution
first, don't worry. your build seems to have the advantage over mine. as i mentioned, it was mainly the discussion there which i thought might help with your build, since the grizzled_dwarflord knows his dwarven rogues well, and his suggestions are always worth reading and mulling over.
second, unless syrath comes up with some more figures, i would suggest that you don't want just SC3. i have seen many people lament the fact that certain builds only get SC3, and not higher. it is perhaps more important to follow your gut, and go with what you like. personally i think that a slightly lower DR (-3) won't hurt too much, but the -10% in concealment will. i would go the ED, SC4, DR 12/- route. but go with what works for you!
-c _________________ Et Earello Endorenna utulien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.
Just wondering...as Self Concealment doesn't stack with other concealments is it not sometimes better to use Imp. Invis for 50% concealment, freeing up 5 feats?
I know SC can't be dispelled but... _________________ Grrr...hear my roar!!!
Quote: Posted 09/26/05 04:05:23 (GMT) -- krsboss
Just wondering...as Self Concealment doesn't stack with other concealments is it not sometimes better to use Imp. Invis for 50% concealment, freeing up 5 feats?
I know SC can't be dispelled but...
It can't be dispelled and it's also permanent. Plus, this build doesn't have access to Improved Invis except on scrolls, which have a very limited duration. If your build can get Improved Invis as a spell with decent duration, then it can be used as an alternative, but often the builds that tend to use SC V have the room for it...there are honestly a lack of spectacular epic feats for a dex build. You could get more Great Dex, but again, most self concealment builds take advantage of epic bonus feats (rogue or shadowdancer bonus feats for example) in order to get to SC V, and Great Dex is rarely an option for those. So, often it ends up being a choice of about 1 extra AC and AB and a few extra bonus feats you didn't need or want, or permanent 50% concealment.
Chris, I checked out your build. It seems I made something very similar to your melee void, sorry ops I apologize for posting something already seen and, more importantly, already developed by someone else
...
So what do you think, is it better to have SC5 or SC3 and ED with 15 DR, or else SC4 and ED but only 12 DR (and no armor skin)? Syrath, I would be glad if you could point out the mathemetics for the best solution
first, don't worry. your build seems to have the advantage over mine. as i mentioned, it was mainly the discussion there which i thought might help with your build, since the grizzled_dwarflord knows his dwarven rogues well, and his suggestions are always worth reading and mulling over.
second, unless syrath comes up with some more figures, i would suggest that you don't want just SC3. i have seen many people lament the fact that certain builds only get SC3, and not higher. it is perhaps more important to follow your gut, and go with what you like. personally i think that a slightly lower DR (-3) won't hurt too much, but the -10% in concealment will. i would go the ED, SC4, DR 12/- route. but go with what works for you!
-c
Tell me what you want the figures for and Ill come up with them. For what its worth I agree with your idea of SC4/DR12/ED it seems to be the best of all worlds.
Also I what I was actually alluding to was that perhaps it would be better reducing the DD levels so that it would be possible to get SC5. Self Concealment 5 would actually be more beneficial than the extra DR in a general fashion.
Against a horde of lower damaging creatures DR rules, since you mitigate the majority of the dmg. Against a creature or player hitting you for 80 dmg per hit, being able to evade those hits is actually much more important than dropping the dmg by all of them by less than 5%.
Sir Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
To me it seems as if DR and ED/SC dont mix that well. I mean if you can avoid getting hit you dont need DR and if you dont get hurt when getting hit you dont need concealment. So in this case I get a feeling that 1+1 is less than 2. However it is very cool to have both.
Quote: Posted 09/26/05 08:34:44 (GMT) -- Bruce Lee 72
To me it seems as if DR and ED/SC dont mix that well. I mean if you can avoid getting hit you dont need DR and if you dont get hurt when getting hit you dont need concealment. So in this case I get a feeling that 1+1 is less than 2. However it is very cool to have both.
i wouldn't say that they don't mix well, but rather that they really help to extend staying time in a fight when combined. if most of the attacks on you miss altogether, and the few that connect are reduced, even by a small amount, it will give you the edge. that is what its all about, i guess.
-c _________________ "You cannot pass!"
Sure they do, if you could get both ED and SC V and max DR then yes. But if you have to give up and get half of each I say max of one is better. So what I meant is 1/2 + 1/2 in this case is less than 1.
Thanks for the enlightnenig comments guys! Chris, Syrath I agree with you that SC4/ED/DR12 gets the best of both worlds and in fact I'm thinking of modifying the build by going DwD 19/Rg 19 to get defensive roll with the additional rogue bonus feat slot. There's still the possibility of going DwD 14/Rg 24 to get SC5/ED/DR 9. In this case I would also move at least one of the fighter levels in epic so as to compensate for the lost DwD bonus feats. This costs 1AB, but moving only 1 fighter lvl to epic actually improves your will saves by 1 (moving 2 lvls means an additional +1 ref but -2 fort).
Syrath, for the maths I meant that I'd like to see what's the difference between SC5 and SC4/ED in the number of attacks that connect. It's then easy to calculate the maximun damage absorbed (attacks that land times DR). The difference betwen DR 15 and DR 12 is then (3 damage points) times (connecting attacks) in the amount of maximun damage absorbed. So, for example, if with ED/SC5 you get hit on average 9 times in 20 rounds, that totals to 27 damage points difference in 20 rounds.
My concern about reducing too much DR is that blind fight makes SC less effective, so I don't want to rely too much on SC alone...sure ED takes care of the first connecting attack each round but having some good DR is not gonna hurt, IMHO.
Anyhow, it seems like I've now got 3 variants of this build, thanks to your feedback 1) Rg 16/DwD 22/Fg 2 with SC5/DR 15 2) Rg 19/DwD 19/Fg 2 with SC4/ED/DR 12 3) Rg 24/DwD 14/Fg 2 with SC5/ED/DR 9
As for me I'm kinda unsure between 2) and 3), considering also the loss in HP by reducing considerably the DwD lvls. DS uses per day also gets a hit in the process. Oh, well, I guess it needs some playtesting to clear my doubts _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Quote: Posted 09/26/05 14:07:07 (GMT) -- Bruce Lee 72
Sure they do, if you could get both ED and SC V and max DR then yes. But if you have to give up and get half of each I say max of one is better. So what I meant is 1/2 + 1/2 in this case is less than 1.
i think i know what you mean. the loss in DR is lamentable, but i don't think that anyone will say that SC4 and ED is anything to scoff at, and 12/- DR, while not as high as a DD build could go, i think that its decent for a build where the focus is not DD class and DR abilities. after all, that's like a greatsword, without help from strength, hitting you and your reaction is something like *that darn sword almost ruined my tan*
i, personally, disagree, and i think 1/2 + 1/2 is still = 1 here, but i think you are right, and that 1 + 1 = 2 would be better. ED, SC5, and a full DR of 20+ would be amazing.
-c _________________ Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Quote: Posted 09/26/05 14:07:07 (GMT) -- Bruce Lee 72
Sure they do, if you could get both ED and SC V and max DR then yes. But if you have to give up and get half of each I say max of one is better. So what I meant is 1/2 + 1/2 in this case is less than 1.
i think i know what you mean. the loss in DR is lamentable, but i don't think that anyone will say that SC4 and ED is anything to scoff at, and 12/- DR, while not as high as a DD build could go, i think that its decent for a build where the focus is not DD class and DR abilities. after all, that's like a greatsword, without help from strength, hitting you and your reaction is something like *that darn sword almost ruined my tan*
i, personally, disagree, and i think 1/2 + 1/2 is still = 1 here, but i think you are right, and that 1 + 1 = 2 would be better. ED, SC5, and a full DR of 20+ would be amazing.
-c
Sure SC5,ED and DR 20+ would be simply great...if only there was a way to achieve it. The most I could squeeze out here is either SC4/ED/DR 12 either SC5/ED/DR 9. Both solutions seem not bad to me. I dunno whether it is possible to do better, I surely would like to see it.
As for me, I think I like more the SC4/ED/DR 12 variant but if someone really wants SC5/ED then he should go for it...one should just know that there's a price to be paid to get that SC5. _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
I think it's possible to get ED, SC V, and 18/- DR, but you wouldn't get Epic Prowess or EWF. Might not be worth it. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Syrath, for the maths I meant that I'd like to see what's the difference between SC5 and SC4/ED in the number of attacks that connect. It's then easy to calculate the maximun damage absorbed (attacks that land times DR). The difference betwen DR 15 and DR 12 is then (3 damage points) times (connecting attacks) in the amount of maximun damage absorbed. So, for example, if with ED/SC5 you get hit on average 9 times in 20 rounds, that totals to 27 damage points difference in 20 rounds.
It all comes down to your AC and the attackers AB at the end of the day. Im going to assume your AC is 10 more than your attackers AB. The attacker has 4 attacks per round and no haste. This is based on one on one combat, since Epic Dodge has no affect other than on your own target. Im also going to assume an average 30 dmg per hit.
Initially with your SC5/DR 15/- only your attacker will roll to hit in 20 rounds the following 1st attacks 10 hits, 5 will miss due to concealment 2nd attacks 5 hits, 2.5 will miss due to concealment 3rd attack 1 hit, 0.5 will miss due to concealment 4th attack 1 hit, 0.5 will miss due to concealment
So total hits, on average will be 8.5 hits average over a 20 round period, each doing 15 dmg. Equivalent to 127.5 dmg.
Comparing that with SC4/ED/DR 12 gives the following 1st attack hits 10s, 4 attacks are missed due to concealment, 6 attacks miss due to epic dodge 2nd atttack hits 5 hits, 2 attacks miss due to concealment, of the remaining 3 , 2.1 attacks are missed due to epic dodge. 3th attack hits 1 hit, 0.4 will miss due to concealment. 0.4 will miss due to epic dodge 4th attack hits 1 hit, 0.4 will miss due to concealment, 0.3 will miss due to epic dodge
So in total 1.4 attacks hit over a 20 round period (remember these figures are on average, hence how you get decimal points of hits) for a grand total of 25.2 dmg.
In the situation described above the ED/SC4/DR 12 build takes 20 percent of the dmg of the SC5/DR15 opponent. This is in a one on one situation only.
Example 2 - Now imagine you have 3 of the exact same attackers attacking you.
You will get 27% more dmg(17% from the difference in concealment and 10% from the extra 3 dmg per hit) from 3 attackers and 80 percent less dmg from one. So even against multiple foes ED/SC4/DR12 still stacks up well.
Now example 3. 10 bowmen(not melee since you cant have that many around you) hitting you, you will get an extra 27% more dmg from the other 9(total 243%) and 80 % less dmg from one. Clearly in this situation SC5/DR 15 wins out.
EDIT where I talk of percent more dmg this is percentage more dmg based on 20 rounds of hits. So in the above example if you get 243% more dmg from 9 bowmen and 80% less dmg from one you get 163% more dmg overall 163%*127.5=208 dmg more. Given that in this example the total damage done by the bowmen is around 1275 on the SC5 build I think you will find that even against 10 bowmen the SC5 build is only taking 17% less dmg than the SC4/ED build.
So anything up to 3 attackers SC4/ED/DR 12 is a match for SC5/DR 15 WHERE the first attack lands on a 10 for all attackers and they do an average of 30 dmg each.
Beyond 3 attackers SC5/DR 15 is the better choice, however not considerably and certainly not by the margin of the difference of one attacker.
Blind Fight doesnt really change the results of this since it affects the SC5 build more than the ED/SC4 build.
The number of attacks per round from the attackers does change this also. The lesser the attacks the better ED does, the more attacks the performance of ED goes down. Especially if those attacks are at higher AB however this also holds true for the SC5 build.
The higher the damage per attack makes things better for the epic dodge build since he gets to avoid more dmg.
It really comes down to cicrumstances. Someone with DR 15/- getting hit for 15 dmg each time has no need for SC5 or ED since he takes no dmg at all from any hit.
To make things clearer I did a quick spreadsheat(since some of the above figures are a little bit estimated for multiple attackers). First number is the number of attackers the 2nd is the dmg done on SC5/DR 15. 3rd is the dmg done on ED/SC4/DR 12. The 3rd number is the percent dmg difference.
Against 1 attacker there is no contest. Against 2 the ED build takes 20 percent less dmg. However note that even in the extreme of 10 attackers the difference is still only 31 percent.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Thanks Syrath, your analysis is awesome! The pros and cons of SC5 vs SC4/ED build are quite clear.
I'm just left with the doubt now whether getting SC5/ED by reducing DD lvls (going Rg24/DD14/Fg2) thus reducig DR, DS uses per day and HP is worthwhile or not. I mean, is SC5/ED that much superior to SC4/ED to justify the loss one has to undergo to get it?
Quote: Posted 09/26/05 22:24:57 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
I think it's possible to get ED, SC V, and 18/- DR, but you wouldn't get Epic Prowess or EWF. Might not be worth it.
I'd like to see such a build, can you give me a link? Thanks
Quote: Posted 09/26/05 22:24:57 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
I think it's possible to get ED, SC V, and 18/- DR, but you wouldn't get Epic Prowess or EWF. Might not be worth it.
I'd like to see such a build, can you give me a link? Thanks
I don't have a link. I had something roughly worked out on paper and now I can't find it. However, upon trying again, I can't seem to make it work, so I was probably mistaken. If I can come up with it, I'll post it for you. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Thanks Syrath, your analysis is awesome! The pros and cons of SC5 vs SC4/ED build are quite clear.
I'm just left with the doubt now whether getting SC5/ED by reducing DD lvls (going Rg24/DD14/Fg2) thus reducig DR, DS uses per day and HP is worthwhile or not. I mean, is SC5/ED that much superior to SC4/ED to justify the loss one has to undergo to get it?
The benefit of SC5 over SC4 when combined with ED.
Just to take things at thier worst im going to assume every attack hits . then compare to the attacker needing 20 to hit.
All attacks hit ( 4 attacks per round)
1st Attack 50% miss due to SC, 50% due to ED 2nd Attack 50% miss due to SC, 25% miss due to ED 3rd Attack 50% miss due to SC, 12.5% miss due to ED 4th attack 50% miss due to SC, 6.25% miss due to ED
Total hits 25%+37.5%+43.75%. So out of 4 attacks per round on average you get hit 1.0625 times per round.
With Sc4 1st attack 40% miss due to SC 60% due to ED 2nd Attack 40% miss due to SC, 18% due to ED 3rd Attack 40% miss due to SC, 9.6% due to ED 4th attack 40% miss due to SC, 3.84% due to ED
An average of 1.4856 hits per round.
So 10% difference in conceleament makes a 40% difference in dmg taken (one on one combat once again). While that might not appear right, it is as long as self concealment is applied BEFORE epic dodge. Therefore it gives you a better chance of applying epic dodge on a later attack.
At the other end of the scale where it requires a 20 to hit you it gets very silly
1st attack 95% miss due to attack roll. 2.5% miss due to SC, 2.5% miss due to ED 2nd attack 95% miss due to attack roll, 2.5% miss due to SC, 2.4% miss due to ED 3rd attack 95% miss due to attack roll, 2.5% miss due to SC, 2.3% miss due to ED 4th attack 95% miss due to attack roll, 2.5% miss due to SC, 2.1% miss due to ED
so roughly 0.007 attacks land each round (roughly 1 attack hits every 120 rounds).
1st attack 95% miss due to attack roll. 2% miss due to SC, 3% miss due to ED 2nd attack 95% miss due to attack roll, 2% miss due to SC, 2.9% miss due to ED 3rd attack 95% miss due to attack roll, 2% miss due to SC, 2.7% miss due to ED 4th attack 95% miss due to attack roll, 2% miss due to SC, 2.6% miss due to ED
So about 0.008 attacks land each round. a massive (hehe) 1/7th increase in damage.
However please note that the increase of damage between SC4 and 5 is quite big at around 17% more dmg from any non epic dodged attacker/targer.
Sir Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Thanks again Syrath, I couldn't ask for anything more!
It seems that also the SC5/ED variant is a viable build. I'm therefore left with 3 builds on roughly the same concept (SC5/DR15, SC4/ED/DR12, SC5/ED/DR9)
A quick question to griphook, should I post the other two variants in another thread or in this one? Thanks Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Nice build. You've already received lots of great advice regarding ED/SC/DR, so I won't belabour that point anymore.
My one suggestion is to give you more sneak damage output by taking Ambi/ITWF. You would need to drop Iron Will, Improved Crit and perhaps Blindfighting, and take a focus in a light weapon. Not sure if that's worth it or not, though it could be easily attainable by adding 4 more levels of fighter. You give up some 3DR, but you give yourself 2 more attacks. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Nice build. You've already received lots of great advice regarding ED/SC/DR, so I won't belabour that point anymore.
My one suggestion is to give you more sneak damage output by taking Ambi/ITWF. You would need to drop Iron Will, Improved Crit and perhaps Blindfighting, and take a focus in a light weapon. Not sure if that's worth it or not, though it could be easily attainable by adding 4 more levels of fighter. You give up some 3DR, but you give yourself 2 more attacks.
IC had to go, together with blind fighting and iron will. AB is 42 (mundane short sword), 40 (dual wield). Damage output is slightly increased by WS, EWS Saves are For 25, Ref 30, Will 19 if I'm not mistaken. Naked AC 29. Oh, and SC4 , ED, DR 12/- ...Overall not bad _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 10/03/05 16:17
Quote: Posted 09/30/05 19:18:27 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Quote: Posted 09/26/05 22:24:57 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
I think it's possible to get ED, SC V, and 18/- DR, but you wouldn't get Epic Prowess or EWF. Might not be worth it.
I'd like to see such a build, can you give me a link? Thanks
I don't have a link. I had something roughly worked out on paper and now I can't find it. However, upon trying again, I can't seem to make it work, so I was probably mistaken. If I can come up with it, I'll post it for you.
This seemed like a challenging puzzle to me. I tried various builds using Kamiryn's Character Build calculator.
The best I could do by min/maxing the character was SC V, ED, 15/- DR with a Rogue 21/DD 18/Harper Scout 1.
Quote: Posted 09/26/05 22:24:57 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
I think it's possible to get ED, SC V, and 18/- DR, but you wouldn't get Epic Prowess or EWF. Might not be worth it.
I'd like to see such a build, can you give me a link? Thanks
I don't have a link. I had something roughly worked out on paper and now I can't find it. However, upon trying again, I can't seem to make it work, so I was probably mistaken. If I can come up with it, I'll post it for you.
This seemed like a challenging puzzle to me. I tried various builds using Kamiryn's Character Build calculator.
The best I could do by min/maxing the character was SC V, ED, 15/- DR with a Rogue 21/DD 18/Harper Scout 1.
Maybe I'm dumb but I can't see how you manage to get SCV, ED and DR 15/- with such a build. DwD 18 gives you DR 12/- and I don't know how you can raise your Con to 21 to be able to get EDRI to raise it to 15/- Pity DwD 22/Rg 19 adds up to 41 lvls , everything would be easier otherwise
Quote: Posted 10/05/05 04:44:02 (GMT) -- jvanhezewyk The best I could do by min/maxing the character was SC V, ED, 15/- DR with a Rogue 21/DD 18/Harper Scout 1.
Maybe I'm dumb but I can't see how you manage to get SCV, ED and DR 15/- with such a build. DwD 18 gives you DR 12/- and I don't know how you can raise your Con to 21 to be able to get EDRI to raise it to 15/- Pity DwD 22/Rg 19 adds up to 41 lvls , everything would be easier otherwise
Well, you can start your character with 19 CON and 18 DEX. Pre-epic, go rogue(10)/DwD(10), putting all boosts in DEX (DEX is now 23), and taking Improved Evasion at rogue 10. Here's your epic progression:
21: Harper Scout(1) - Great DEX I, Great DEX II (DEX is now 25) 22: Rogue(11) 23: Rogue(12) 24: Rogue(13) - Defensive Roll, Great DEX III, +DEX (DEX is now 27) 25: DwD(11) 26: DwD(12) 27: Rogue(14) - Epic Dodge 28: DwD(13) - +DEX (DEX is now 28) 29: DwD(14) - Epic Weapon Focus/Armor Skin (take your pick) 30: Rogue(15) - Great Dex IV (DEX is now 29) 31: DwD(15) 32: Rogue(16) - +DEX (DEX is now 30), Self Concealment I 33: Rogue(17) - Self Concealment II 34: Rogue(18) 35: DwD(16) 36: Rogue(19) - Self Concealment III, Self Concealment IV, +CON (CON is now 20) 37: Rogue(20) 38: DwD(17) 39: Rogue(21) - Self Concealment V 40: DwD(18) - +CON (CON is now 21), Epic Damage Reduction I
That would give you Epic Dodge, SC V, and 18/- damage reduction. You even can get Epic Weapon Focus or Armor Skin in there too. Of course, your other stats suck, .
Steve
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 10/05/05 18:42
Thanks Steve, I completely forgot that HS taken in epic lvls grants Great Dex as a bonus feat. Well, so now I know it's possible to get everything... I'm not sure it's really worthwhile though
ops
