21 cleric: great wis 1 22 cleric: 23 cleric: epic spell focus (evocation) 24 cleric: +1 wis, great wis 2 25 cleric: 26 cleric: extend spell* 27 cleric: great wis 3 28 cleric: +1 wis 29 cleric: great wis 4 30 cleric: great wis 5 31 cleric: 32 cleric: +1 wis, great wis 6 33 cleric: great wis 7 34 cleric: 35 cleric: great wis 8 36 cleric: +1 wis, great wis 9 37 cleric: 38 cleric: great wis 10 39 monk: epic skill focus (hide)* 40 SD: +1 wis
* - Feat can be changed without hurting the integrity of the build.
Ending Stats: 6 str 14 dex 12 con 14 int 38 wis 8 cha
Vitals (naked & unbuffed) AC 34 Approx 320 hitpoints (I had 316)
Fort 25 Reflex 20 Will 38
Base 42 implosion save DC, 7 casts per day.
Max tumble, move silently, hide at 40. Cross-class one point into Open Locks, Set Traps, and Disarm Traps with your shadowdancer level to take advantage of the Trickery bonus powers.
This is a refinement on a build I designed when I saw the changes to Implosion in 1.66 patch and posted to the general forum. An area instant death spell with a save DC increase and no immunities just begged to have a build designed around it. Getting HIPS and maxed out stealth skills allows the character to survive without significant defenses in many environments - invisible until he attacks, positioning itself perfectly, then disappearing again to avoid retaliation and set up the next shot.
FAQ:
Q: This is a cheesey power build that totally exploits monk, shadowdancer, and the new implosion! Have you no shame? A: Well, yeah, that's the point of the build. And, no, not really.
Q: Why halfling? Why not dwarf or elf? A: You get a dex bonus that helps you with your starting stats, you don't really need high strength, and you have racial bonuses to stealth checks. Also, with the Trickery domain powers, the dwarf charisma penalty will take another turn's worth of duration from it (it's 5 + cha mod). The 8 cha halfling will get 4 turns; the 5 cha dwarf will get 3.
Q: Why don't you take any spell penetration feats? A: Because with 38 caster levels you will penetrate 32 SR (max for a non-SR monk) all the time.
Q: 6 strength is really going to hurt my carrying capabilities... can't I have a higher strength? A: This build's maximized for implosion performance and stealthiness at level 40... not for hauling around gobs of loot. Use your bull's strength buff and your henchmen.
Q: I don't have enough skillpoints to max concentration, hide, move silently, discipline, spellcraft, and tumble! What should I do? A: You can get some extra skillpoints by dropping your dex to 13 and taking a Great Intelligence feat at 21. You'll lose the ability to take epic focus in hide at 39 - you'll be taking great wisdom 10 then. But either way you need to prioritize your skill choices. You aren't meant to get meleed much, and your cleric buffs can make up for not having a spell save bonus. Besides... if anything's still alive after you un-stealth to implode them, you can just HIPS, reposition, and either retreat or try again.
If you are dropping discipline, you can take Monk much earlier in the build, and have your monk bonuses as you level up.
Q: What about people or creatures with True Seeing? A: Try and see them first, then implode them before they can do anything to you. Being able to self-haste via your travel domain spells will benefit you a lot here. Greater sanctuary is another good thing to have memorized if you want to disengage a true-seer and get out of dodge.
Q: Why take the monk level? It means I can't wear armor! A: No, your 6 strength means you can't wear armor. The monk level gives you alot of AC points without armor, and makes it so that you don't have to crossclass skills to get shadowdancer. Carry around a kama and fire up divine power if you want to amuse yourself by meleeing... you won't be half bad at it.
Q: What can I do about SR monks? Or enemies with magic immunity? A: You can raise your spellcraft and pick Epic Spell - Greater Ruin instead of epic skill focus (hide) or extend spell. Also, you can memorize a number of melee buffs, and fight them toe to toe with a single nonmagical kama. A few simple low-level buff spells will turn you from zero to hero in melee despite your 6 strength - darkfire, divine power, divine favor, magical vestment, shield of faith, prayer... you get the idea.
Q: What about my offensive spells other than Implosion? A: Other Evocation school spells will have a base save DC of 30 + level; spells from different schools will have a save DC of 24 + level.
Harm, of course, is as good for you as for anybody else. Hammer of the Gods and Sound Burst are especially nice with this build as they always do full damage and use Will saves not for half, but to avoid special secondary effects of Dazed and Stunned, respectively - both good for keeping the target(s) from fighting back, finishing off wounded or Harmed enemies, or dealing with targets that have Evasion or enough of a Fortitude save to survive your Implosion. Your Word of Faith spell will have a 19 round stun duration with no save, as well. You can also use Sunbeam to decent effect - although it's a Reflex save, it's a save against the blindness, not the damage, for non-undead. And the base DC will be 38.
You can also use flame strike, fire storm, and so on... but the truth is you just don't need to in the vast majority of cases. Between your Word of Faith, Implosion, and Harm, only targets with nearly total immunity to magic will be left standing. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 09/29/09 17:53
It's about time this horror showed up here! ;p
What changes have you made since the original post in the General Discussion forum?
Kaliban _________________ This space for rent
The main changes were taking metamagic feats instead of improved combat casting and making concentration into an optional skill.
I find through playing that the metamagic feats aren't that helpful for their effect, because with 38 caster levels even 1 round/level spells don't have to be Extended to outlast most battles, and there's little point to Empowering or Maximizing direct damage spells when your forte is area instant death. But using still spell to make word of faith a level 8 spell frees up level 7 slots for greater restoration, or stilled harms and heals. And other metamagic for similar reasons is good to have.
If you want a build that gets its cheese earlier, you can either take your monk level at 21, or by crossclassing skills, your SD level at 21, depending on if you'd rather have HIPS or the monk AC bonus. The price of going monk early is that you can't max your discipline skill; the price of going SD early is the loss of skill points to crossclassing in a skill-starved build.
If you want more skill points you can start with a 13 dex and 13 int, then use a great int feat at 21 and replace the level 39 feat with great wisdom 10. The price of this is a discretionary feat.
Those are the primary ways to vary the build, depending your environment and personal tastes. Myself, I find the extra skillpoints very attractive, but haven't got a problem delaying both monk and SD to the end. Clerics are so powerful that even with a base strength of 6, you shouldn't have trouble leveling in the majority of environments. If you do, swap Empower for Extend spell early in the build, and buff yourself with bull's strength constantly. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Edited By Xylophone on 09/29/05 13:44
I'd use silent spell instead of still spell. clerics can cast in armor, so still doesn't add any functionality. silent also allows you to shift your spells up one level and will also be useful if you get silenced or deafened.
What a cheap little build... I LOVE IT!
Love it too
And why not human?
It's not human because the build has certain base stat requirements that are most easily reached by halflings or dwarves. And, possibly, gnomes.
You need to have 13 dex, minimum, and 18 wis minimum, to make the build work. You also want 12 int, bare minimum (14 preferred) and 12 con, bare minimum.
Humans don't have any stat adjustments so they don't get any help with that. Halflings, dwarves, and gnomes lose points in stats they don't really need (strength, charisma) and gain points where they do (con, dex, int). But halfling has racial bonuses to stealth and various other bonuses that made me pick them.
And the fact that few people use halflings, and even fewer use them for clerics, made me want to take the opportunity to use them for a superpowered cleric build to show just what those little buggers are capable of if you give them a chance. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Why not take monk at lvl 28?
Because aside from WIS bonus, the late monk level is also used to max discipline. The builder actually makes reference to that in his original post:
Quote: Posted 09/29/05 08:58:10 (GMT) -- Xylophone If you are dropping discipline, you can take Monk much earlier in the build, and have your monk bonuses as you level up.
Steve
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 10/01/05 17:08
With 8 hp's at each level, and plus two on top of that, your hp will end up at 400. Not 320.
SD only gets 6d... so the max HP would be 398... technically.
304- 38d8 from Cleric 8- 1d8 from Monk 6- 1d6 from SD 40- 40 from Constitution 40- from Toughness
Not bad... you could survive one IGMS... the only thing I ask for in most builds... unless I want a build with hugh HP and can survive anything thrown at it... but I wouldn't go this route... this Halfing is pure destruction.
Actually, shadowdancers get d8 hit dice. 400 is right. But I got 316 without rerolling.
As far as the build's design, it's meant more to use stealth tactics as its defense, and only rely on defenses like hps, AC, etc when it becomes visible to cast - at which point it should be too late.
On very high-magic worlds it loses effectiveness because people will have higher saves and, more importantly, true seeing. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Well done, Xylo. It's been a longtime coming. I was beginning to think that you had vanished altogether. It was due to this particular concept that I have paid particular attention to my character's Fort saves in PvP environs. This little guy is just evil, through and through. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
I've been offline a while Just now getting back around to NWN hehe.
I love this build too, mainly because it's a 'halfling of doooooom' - and halfling actually works out as being the most powergamed race for this build. Nuking cleric builds are also kind of in short supply from what I've seen. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
If you take the monk level earlier you get an xp penalty right? So then you have to be human to avoid it I guess. I would love to try this build but I dont like xp penalties.
Yes there would be an exp penalty. You can, however, take the shadowdancer level early by crossclassing skills without an xp penalty. You'll lose a lot of skillpoints, so I don't recommend it. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
I'm wondering, for the servers that disable the 1 level of SD to HIPS, what other classes are good for this?
I have no idea...
Rogue or assassin for UMD. Or bard, if you are able to shift alignments. Or wizard or sorcerer to use arcane scrolls without spending skill points. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
In servers with haste items what would you recccomend besides travel for domain? _________________ "Ïf thê øñlÿ wäÿ før mê tø bê wïth ÿøù ïs ïñ ä drêäm thêñ lêt mê drêäm førêvêr"
"Habits are like a comfy chair easy to get in to and hard to get out of"
In servers with haste items what would you recccomend besides travel for domain?
Plant for barkskin or War for Auro of Vitality. But I'm sure there are nice other options too ...
But ineed to ask why no points in con or Spellcraft _________________ "Ïf thê øñlÿ wäÿ før mê tø bê wïth ÿøù ïs ïñ ä drêäm thêñ lêt mê drêäm førêvêr"
"Habits are like a comfy chair easy to get in to and hard to get out of"
however with the new patch, clerics have to roll a fort save as well to evade implosions effects
however with the new patch, clerics have to roll a fort save as well to evade implosions effects
What do you mean, clerics have to roll as well? They always have. Even from their own. However, with the new patch they don't anymore. Hit themselves, that is. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
Dont know if this build is still live but i was wondering if with uncanny dodge does it apply to wis ac or just dex and if so is it one lvl of sd or two? Also wouldnt zen archery do better than kamas for an alternative to spells incase you need? Would dropping 38 to 37 make any differnce on the cleric lvls?
Love the build Xylophone =8)
Quote: Posted 06/02/08 19:57 (GMT) -- Rabbac
Dont know if this build is still live but i was wondering if with uncanny dodge does it apply to wis ac or just dex
Just DEX-based AC. I can't recall for certain if 1.69 is going to make it apply to Dodge based AC as well or not.
Quote: and if so is it one lvl of sd or two?
Level 2 SD gives UD.
Quote: Also wouldnt zen archery do better than kamas for an alternative to spells incase you need?
Possibly, but you cannot buff a ranged weapon with your spells (Darkfire, GMW), you'd need to take at least PBS so you don't suffer an AB penalty in close range, you'll provoke AoOs when firing in melee, and you're likely to do far less damage (as noted, no buffs on the weapons from your Cleric spells).
Quote: Would dropping 38 to 37 make any differnce on the cleric lvls?
Yes, you'd lose 1 epic bonus feat, which is used for Great Wisdom, so you'd end up with lower WIS. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 06/02/08 20:10 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Quote: Posted 06/02/08 19:57 (GMT) -- Rabbac
Dont know if this build is still live but i was wondering if with uncanny dodge does it apply to wis ac or just dex
Just DEX-based AC. I can't recall for certain if 1.69 is going to make it apply to Dodge based AC as well or not.
If I'm not wrong, it doesn't need to apply to Wis AC, since that always applies. Even flat-footed, breakdancing, yodling or vs invisibles. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Quote: Posted 06/03/08 15:45 (GMT) -- Grimnir77 If I'm not wrong, it doesn't need to apply to Wis AC, since that always applies. Even flat-footed, breakdancing, yodling or vs invisibles.
I think we should apply a new section in build sheets:
Yodelling AC _________________ -4SakN
The Moonshae Isles - Forgotten Realms A Role Play, Low Magic world
I think your right, Grimnir. Although Yodelling is a special case, where you get a double AC bonus if you're in an area that provides an echo. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 06/03/08 15:45 (GMT) -- Grimnir77 If I'm not wrong, it doesn't need to apply to Wis AC, since that always applies. Even flat-footed, breakdancing, yodling or vs invisibles.
Just to be pedantically precise, WIS AC does not apply vs touch attacks though (as any Natural source of AC).
I don't remember seeing any mention of UD applying to Dodge AC too (as it should per the PnP RAW) with the forthcoming patch. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Such a relentlessly cheap and super effective build! Made it on a few servers, and after a week on each the entire server was reworked that high end monsters were immune to harm, all savess were increased drasticaly, and harm now does something like 1d10 dmg per caster level. This build literaly shapes worlds with its precence lol. Kudos!
Quote: Posted 06/21/09 20:34 (GMT) -- Shynomoki
Such a relentlessly cheap and super effective build! Made it on a few servers, and after a week on each the entire server was reworked that high end monsters were immune to harm, all savess were increased drasticaly, and harm now does something like 1d10 dmg per caster level. This build literaly shapes worlds with its precence lol. Kudos!
You see the power of the cleric now!! LOL
THere are way too many people who make worlds but dont understand the crazyness that can be had with high wisdom clerics.
Going into the NEXT server though, DONT BRAG SO MUCH! LOL just go out and smoke things and never let on to what you are doing. Trust me, its way more fun than making the DMs rework the server cuz they think they make a GODLY world, when they really didnt.
If you REALLY want to see power, find a PRC server. They are fairly rare, and may not be populated heavyly, but then go check out a cleric PRC build. You may never play vanilla nwn again... I know i couldnt.
btw, IF you like the servers and still want dominating builds, look at cleric/bard4/pm10 or rdd10. Go for Dev crit (if allowed) but go high str for AB and then have fun. You will be truly hated on the server! Hated, but in the most RESPECTED way possible. _________________
No bragging was really required to be honest. I either had the misfortuen of running a dungeon while a dm was playing as a toon and witnessed the nuclear cheese bomb or was on a dm account and saw it
YEah that happens. A friend of mine had a dm staff all in a huff when he stoned the end of the server boss. Apparently that wasnt supposed to happen! They were pissed and he had braggin rights for a time.
Atleast I can say I have bragging rights for single-handedly ruining all magic based clerics and dc based spells lol.
Honestly, I've never found Clerics to be all that great. This build has an Implosion DC of 49, right? In a +5 item environment, everyone and their grandma has at least +50 fortitude. Sorcerers, on the other hand, rape faces.
Quote: Posted 07/02/09 21:41 (GMT) -- Endalyor
Honestly, I've never found Clerics to be all that great. This build has an Implosion DC of 49, right? In a +5 item environment, everyone and their grandma has at least +50 fortitude. Sorcerers, on the other hand, rape faces.
I'm confused by your first sentence. I dont believe I've ever seen those words used together in the same sentence before.
Anyways, does everyone really reach a Fortitude save above 50 in a +5 environment?
Quote: Posted 07/02/09 22:07 (GMT) -- galelabriel
Quote: Posted 07/02/09 21:41 (GMT) -- Endalyor
Honestly, I've never found Clerics to be all that great. This build has an Implosion DC of 49, right? In a +5 item environment, everyone and their grandma has at least +50 fortitude. Sorcerers, on the other hand, rape faces.
I'm confused by your first sentence. I dont believe I've ever seen those words used together in the same sentence before.
Anyways, does everyone really reach a Fortitude save above 50 in a +5 environment?
Not at all. Bombastic claims only. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Dude, 50 Fortitude means you're a high CHA Paladin or Blackguard or a high level Champion of Torm. My level 40 Fighter / Dwarven Defenders or Druid / Monk dragons (high CON and high Fort save on all classes for extra pre-epic save boost) don't reach 50, barely 40, and those are high Fortitude builds, regular meleers get less, regular casters even less. Even my Druid 16 / Monk 6 / Champion of Torm 18 only has 45 Fortitude, and sure it's high enough to laugh at Implosion, but it already has plenty of CoT and it's one of the highest saves you'll find in a low magic environment besides the uber crazy Paladin/Blackguard/CoT. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 07/03/09 16:19
*cough* Sorc/Paladin or Sorc/Blackguard *cough*
(though to be fair, that's only about 50 versus spells, need a few fort items to get 50 base)
Hey, the only Sorcerer I play is a Sorcerer/Paladin/Blackguard, and his Fortitude is so high the best Dev Crit only lands on rolls of 1, but that's way far from "everyone and their grandma has at least +50", it's specifically a high saves build. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 07/05/09 17:55
The difficulty with endy's comment is he compares CLERIC to SORC/PAL. Why doesnt he compare CLERIC to ANY pure class? Cuz, when you do, you fall short.
Cleric is the ONLY class where you can add ab, ac, damage, use spells for destruction or health, etc. It is the most diverse class in nwn.
TO be fair to endy's comparison, when you mix cleric/bard which opens rdd or pm, then you get a whole other world of hurt.
And last, what are saves? Fort of 50, is that good? When you REALLY understand clerics, saves become something noobs worry about. I have played for a long time and have YET to worry about maximizing saves in a build. Things just never lat that long to care. I guess it says something about your style of play when SAVES become the be all end all.
No worries. I will pray for your soul... NOT! _________________
Quote: Posted 06/23/04 21:16 (GMT) -- Anuis
Suolucider, Blitz 04, avado, Quisition, Boourns, ... welcome to the guild! Anuis
Makes me feel OOLD!!
Saves are fairly important, and 50 IS high, spells can't reach it, only a few combat feats can best that, my best Stunning Fist had 63 DC, which is a DC to tremble against but it can still be saved with a fair chance if your save is 50 since you have 1d20 + save roll vs DC. I actually do pretty well in PvM because melee mobs tend to have lousy saves when it comes down to it, and mass area spells just as this build is intended to be used will nuke earth and beyond if they can't make the save, and I don't play the hardcorest (if that's a word) servers to see if getting owned is fun, it isn't for me. Works for PvP too, if you don't care about saves, any spellcaster will make short work of you. So grab this build, play it and watch for yourself.
Endalyor said the max possible base spell DC is lousy in practically any server. Well, obviously that's crap (yeah, "crap", Bioware forums censor the real word, but you what it should be). _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 07/05/09 20:27
Quote: Posted 07/05/09 18:47 (GMT) -- avado
The difficulty with endy's comment is he compares CLERIC to SORC/PAL. Why doesnt he compare CLERIC to ANY pure class? Cuz, when you do, you fall short.
Cleric is the ONLY class where you can add ab, ac, damage, use spells for destruction or health, etc. It is the most diverse class in nwn.
TO be fair to endy's comparison, when you mix cleric/bard which opens rdd or pm, then you get a whole other world of hurt.
See, you're talking about clerics being used in melee builds where AB, AC, and damage matter. In that sense, yes, clerics are fantastic. However, the topic on hand is a cleric who focuses on spell casting, and in that sense, a spell that uses a DC is nothing compared to a maximized Isaac's Greater Missile Storm and a Bigby's Grasping Hand, which are both incredibly hard to resist. Compare this build to a pure sorcerer, we both know who will win.
Yeah, all builds need to be made so that they can beat Exhalted Sorcerer builds or else they're lousy. Sorcerers are great for PvP, that's far from the point.
A Cleric can withstand all your IGMS slots with just a few Heals, even more so if it's a Cleric with Healing Domain, but just a single Implosion that hits you and it's the end of the line. I find it ridiculous to say the best instant death spell in the game is not good, it even breaches death immunity. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 07/06/09 21:53
Please drop the pointless, borderline offtopic argument, will ya? _________________ Ghaash agh akûl - Nazgûl skoiz Mirdautas vras! Karn ghaamp agh nût Shaut Manwe quiinubat gukh
Summoning - Mirdautas Vras
endy... pvp is for the kids! Everyone who knows anything about anything in this game is well aware that in pvp, igms sorcs and dragons are it. It can be VERY hard for other classes to beat these. NWN was never really balanced for pvp.
with respect to your comment about spells, DUDE! What are Divine Power? Divine Favor? Battletide? Prayer? Aid? Oh, right, SPELLS!! When you talk about a caster cleric, you are really talking about a cleric, as when you get into playing one, EVEN if your intent was to use damage spells, you end up using these spells too! Its what being a cleric IS! Those who dont, unfortunately, dont get the cleric. I know as i was one of those for a few years before i figured it out.
Now, you talk about 50 being high dc. I designed a cleric one time that had 47 implode DC with 19 wisdom (yes i could have pushed it up, but i decided to other things). On a server that is considered HARD by good players, i was soloing and using implode on things way up in the highest areas. It works. Your ideas are flawed.
Whast i suggest is you ONLY play some clerics for the next year. Play every day. Try out different things. You will find that they are the most exciting class you could ever play. IF you are a pvper, stick with the whine and cheese igms. That way you can imagine you have a big whineer, when everyone knows its just the class.
(though to be fair, that's only about 50 versus spells, need a few fort items to get 50 base)
Indeed and those are specific builds, notorius for their high saves, not surely everyone and their grandma. Anyhow, as the Finn says, let's drop the pointless argument and comparisons. Back on topic please. Thank you. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
400 is right. But I got 316 without rerolling. 
YEah that happens. A friend of mine had a dm staff all in a huff when he stoned the end of the server boss. Apparently that wasnt supposed to happen! They were pissed and he had braggin rights for a time.
Atleast I can say I have bragging rights for single-handedly ruining all magic based clerics and dc based spells lol.
Honestly, I've never found Clerics to be all that great. This build has an Implosion DC of 49, right? In a +5 item environment, everyone and their grandma has at least +50 fortitude. Sorcerers, on the other hand, rape faces.