Skills - The last bard level is to end with max Discipline, Tumble, Spellcraft, and UMD. Be sure to max Intimidate on level 39.
Ending Vitals: 32 Dex
+51 AB with mundane longbow, +9 damage from AA
29 AC 520 max hp (not raging) Fort 25, Ref 32, Will 19 4/- Damage Reduction
Greater Rage 6/day for +6 str, +6 con, +3 will save, -2 AC Terrifying Rage Save DC 52
Pros - Good hitpoints and overall defenses for an archer. Terrifying rage makes the enemy keep their distance and limits their fighting back. Able to fight in melee with an AB of 40 using a finessed weapon. Rage bonuses allow the effective use of mighty +3 bows. UMD.
Cons - Mediocre AB and damage for an arcane archer. Terrifying Rage is late in the build. Doesn't get the prereq feats to capitalize on high dex by taking epic dodge or self-conceal.
The FAQ:
Q: So what's the big idea you had that made you do this build? A: I wanted to make a barbarian/AA because I wanted to combined Terrifying Rage (a feat that prevents many enemies from attacking you) with effective ranged attacks. Also, I've been messing around with AA in general lately.
The usual rage bonuses also synergize nicely with the character, boosting the low will save, adding hitpoints, and making Mighty a worthwhile quality on your bows.
Q: Why not take more epic Rage feats then? A: I would have liked to, but terrifying rage is the only one I could qualify for in this build.
Q: What about the level progression? Why is it that way? Couldn't you get 1 more AB by going pure Barbarian to 20? A: Yes I could have, but I wanted the character to be playable as an archer from as early on as possible. It's probably very possible to go pure barbarian to 20, but I think it's more playable as is.
Q: Why Bard? Why not wizard or sorcerer? A: Because Bard gets tumble, spellcraft, and UMD as class skills. You can make a wizard version of this build with Elf as the race if you really want but I think that for powergaming purposes Bard comes out on top.
Wizard would free up some base stat points, and have more skill points at the end probably, but wouldn't have as many truly useful skills to spend them on.
Q: I'll get level 1 bard spells... at level 40. What do you suggest? A: Protection from Evil is by far the best level 1 spell. Take that. Otherwise, it doesn't matter. Identify is reasonably useful to identify lower level items and potions or scrolls in the field without a trip to town or putting points into Lore. By the time you get the spells most of them won't be useful anymore, and you'll have too few caster levels for shorter duration buff spells to be meaningful anyway. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Edited By griphook on 10/14/05 13:49
I like the idea, but I would make a couple of changes to it (mostly for min-maxing).
Str 10 Dex 17 Con 14 // Nothing against 14 con, but I would leave it at 12, you are an archer (and you are taking toughness) 480 HP is nothing bad for an archer, even starting at 10 con and having 440 HP is far enough. Wis 10 //I would drop this to 8 and compensate it with an iron will feat Int 12 Cha 11 //You are starting as a barbarian, you dont need so much cha, at worst you will drop your bard level 1 spells (not much of a lost) and 1 DC in your rage. I would start at cha 8.
My min/maxed stats would be:
Str: 14 // A bit of carrying capacity and mighty Dex: 18 // I always think maxing so much is wasting ability points but you have few AA levels Con: 10 // 440HP is still decent for an archer Wis: 8 // Compensate with iron will Int: 14 // You could always leave both con and int at 12 Cha: 8
Half-Elf, Non-Lawful
3 Barb (3): Point Blank Shot //I take it before Weapon focus because I think that removing the 4 AB penalty in close combat and adding 1 AB is better than 1 AB overall 6 Barb (6): Weapon Focus (Longbow) 18 Barb (8): Iron will //I do prefer it over blind fight, you should not be meleeing very much at this point 24 Barb (14): +1 dex, Epic Prowess // You dont need the great dex here, and this is 1 more AB
+52 AB with mundane longbow
440 max hp (not raging) and +43 skillpoints Or 480 max HP (not raging) and same skillpoints
Fort 25, Ref 32, Will 20 Terrifying Rage Save DC 51
- - - - - - - - - -
It is only how I would make it. Not that it is better. Nice concept. _________________ HEAD KNIGHT: Shh shh. We are now the Knights Who Say Ekke ekke ekke ptang zoo boing! RANDOM: Ni!
Edited By fernandooa on 10/13/05 09:21
It seems that Epic Prowess does not stack with Enchant Arrow (or doesn't work with bows at all, can't tell about that). I have tried making the same AA build with Epic Prowess and without it, and ended up with the same AB.
You probably are right about Point Black Shot, though.
What does he gain with Barbarian 21; why not just go Barbarian 16? You would lose 2 DR and Uncanny Dodge VI, but I don't think they're crucial. Barbarian 17 would give you Damage Reduction III, so it may be better. Nevertheless, I would go with more Bard levels (for more frequent skill dumps, a somewhat stronger song , and some spells) or AA (Enchant Arrow duh ;D).
Hope I made at least some sense
EDIT: typos _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
Edited By FinneousPJ on 10/13/05 14:20
Quote: Posted 10/13/05 14:19:12 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ It seems that Epic Prowess does not stack with Enchant Arrow (or doesn't work with bows at all, can't tell about that). I have tried making the same AA build with Epic Prowess and without it, and ended up with the same AB.
I have read a thread about it once, the thread was a bit messy but it made me think that the real the problem is that it wasn't showing on the character sheet.
Quote: Posted 10/13/05 14:19:12 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ What does he gain with Barbarian 21; why not just go Barbarian 16? You would lose 2 DR and Uncanny Dodge VI, but I don't think they're crucial. Barbarian 17 would give you Damage Reduction III, so it may be better. Nevertheless, I would go with more Bard levels (for more frequent skill dumps, a somewhat stronger song , and some spells) or AA (Enchant Arrow duh ;D).
That's true, I would go barbarian17/Bard2/AA21 but that is up to each one.
I still love the idea of a raging arcane archer. . _________________ HEAD KNIGHT: Shh shh. We are now the Knights Who Say Ekke ekke ekke ptang zoo boing! RANDOM: Ni!
It seems that Epic Prowess does not stack with Enchant Arrow (or doesn't work with bows at all, can't tell about that). I have tried making the same AA build with Epic Prowess and without it, and ended up with the same AB.
What feat did you drop for Epic Prowess? As far as I know, EP works with any weapon, ranged or melee. I'll try to test it out sometime today if I get the chance. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
I dropped Toughness. I can provide you with the character files I saved if you don't want to go through the leveling yourself
EDIT: fernandooa may be right. I am positive, however, that it did not show up on my character sheet. _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
Edited By FinneousPJ on 10/13/05 17:13
Gonna reply to several things in one post:
Quote: Cha 11 //You are starting as a barbarian, you dont need so much cha, at worst you will drop your bard level 1 spells (not much of a lost) and 1 DC in your rage. I would start at cha 8.
As far as I am aware bards need at least 11 charisma or you can't take levels in the class. If that's not true, then sure, you can free up points here.
Quote: 3 Barb (3): Point Blank Shot //I take it before Weapon focus because I think that removing the 4 AB penalty in close combat and adding 1 AB is better than 1 AB overall 6 Barb (6): Weapon Focus (Longbow) 18 Barb (8): Iron will //I do prefer it over blind fight, you should not be meleeing very much at this point 24 Barb (14): +1 dex, Epic Prowess // You dont need the great dex here, and this is 1 more AB
I took focus earlier than PB shot because I would be switching to a melee weapon at that level when in close combat. After all, you still provoke AOOs when using a bow in melee, even with pointblank shot.
I am a big fan of blind fight because of a few multiplayer modules I've played in where the DM/builder really liked high concealment on creatures. Any fighter style build of mine will get it if at all possible.
As for toughness/iron will/etc, and constitution, part of this character's concept was being able to switch to melee when appropriate, and being able to take some damage.
Quote: What does he gain with Barbarian 21; why not just go Barbarian 16? You would lose 2 DR and Uncanny Dodge VI, but I don't think they're crucial. Barbarian 17 would give you Damage Reduction III, so it may be better. Nevertheless, I would go with more Bard levels (for more frequent skill dumps, a somewhat stronger song , and some spells) or AA (Enchant Arrow duh ;D).
You need to be an epic barbarian (21 barbarian levels) to qualify for Terrifying Rage, which is central to the build's concept of shooting scared people as they run away from you.
Good ideas all, but I've got some requirements on the character build and personal preferences that shaped it. I'm not much of an archer player which is why I liked the Terrifying Rage idea. I hate having to move around and back up and stay out of range - with this build I'd hope that they'd be the ones running away.
In terms of power - it'll allow me to attack without interruption instead of shooting for a round, moving for a round, etc. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Quote: As far as I am aware bards need at least 11 charisma or you can't take levels in the class. If that's not true, then sure, you can free up points here.
Nope, there are no attribute requirements for multiclassing. There was in Baldur's Gate, maybe you mixed them up somehow.
Quote: You need to be an epic barbarian (21 barbarian levels) to qualify for Terrifying Rage, which is central to the build's concept of shooting scared people as they run away from you.
No, you only need Greater Rage (x times a day, can't remember now ). _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
Hmm. I planned the build using the Grimoire and it says (key words in bold):
Quote: Terrifying Rage Type of Feat: (Epic) General Prerequisite: Epic Barbarian, Intimidate 25 Specifics: While the barbarian is raging, any enemy that comes close to him must make a Will save opposed by the barbarian’s Intimidate check or become panicked for 1d6 rounds. Opponents with up to twice the barbarian’s HD will not flee but will receive a –2 penalty to attack and saving throw rolls. Creatures with more then 2x the barbarian’s HD are not affected by the rage. Use: Automatic while in rage.
Epic barbarian means 21 barbarian levels but if the grimoire is wrong, I'd definitely drop back the barbarian levels for AA levels, at least enough to give you +10 enchant arrow instead of +9. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Well the Grimoire is wrong, then! I know I have built builds with only 16 Barbarian levels and Terrifying Rage - there are even such builds posted on here. Try it ;p _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
Yeah level 15 or 16 is barbarian is enough for terror rage. Surprising number of feat prereqs that are inaccurate really. I like the idea alot with a terror archer!
Epic Prowess does work with archery. It is merely a bug in the character sheet and it is not displayed. I have some onfo on it at the bottom of one of my AA builds:
Click Here
Based on these comments and some tinkering I've revised this build to the following:
* - Feat is optional but recommended ** - Feats can be exchanged for Great Dex if desired; lose will save and 1 AC in return for 1 AB.
+41 AB with dex-based weapons +54 AB with longbow (+55 with epic prowess factored in) +11 damage with bows.
AC 31 DR 2/- 460 max hp Fort 25, Ref 32, Will 23
51 DC Terrifying Rage save.
Skills - Max Intimidate at 39, max Discipline, UMD, Tumble, Spellcraft at 40
All the general info about this build is the same... it's just even better at doing what I originally wanted it to do. Some physical defenses (DR, hitpoints) are traded off for a better offense, higher AC, earlier terrifying rage, and a better will save. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
I like it, there is only a little something I don't see that clear:
Why barbarian 16?. With barbarian 15 you get terrifying rage, with bard2 at level 40 you can max discipline, tumble, spellcraft... if trading that 39 barb level for an AA level (Ending as a Barb15/Bard2/AA23) you will get 2 more skillpoints 1 more AB and 1 more damage per hit at the cost of a few HPs
Is there something I forget? (DR perhaps?). _________________ HEAD KNIGHT: Shh shh. We are now the Knights Who Say Ekke ekke ekke ptang zoo boing! RANDOM: Ni!
It was either take Barb 15 at 39 and keep epic rage late, or have a lot lower intimdate skill for DC.
I chose earlier terrifying rage over absolutely maximum power at level 40. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Quote: Posted 10/14/05 11:16:53 (GMT) -- Xylophone It was either take Barb 15 at 39 and keep epic rage late, or have a lot lower intimdate skill for DC.
I chose earlier terrifying rage over absolutely maximum power at level 40.
That's true, it improves playability.
I hope you don't mind if I add here the complete munchkin version:
He gets Terrifying rage at level 39 and has a 20% xp penalty from level 14. It is still playable (I gave him weapon finesse at level 1)
His will saves are good enough, you could drop iron will for toughness (+40 HP) and perhaps epic prowess + epic will for two great dexterities, that would grant you 1 more reflex saves and 1 more AC .
Discipline 43(45) Intimidate 42(51) // Terrifying DC: 51 Perform 7(6) //For bardsong Spellcraft 42(43) //If you ever get a +4 boost to int you will have +1 saves vs spells perhaps any skill boost via bardsong or other Tumble 40(52) UMD 41(40)
Skill progression:
01: Discipline(4), 02: Discipline(1), 03: Discipline(1), 04: Discipline(1), 05: Discipline(1), 06: Discipline(1), 07: Discipline(1), 08: Discipline(1), 09: Discipline(1), 10: Discipline(1), 11: Discipline(1), 12: Discipline(1), 13: Discipline(1), 14: Discipline(1), Perform(7), Spellcraft(15), Tumble(15), UMD(16), 36: Discipline(22), Intimidate(39), 39: Discipline(3), Intimidate(3), 40: Discipline(1), Spellcraft(27), Tumble(25), UMD(25), _________________ HEAD KNIGHT: Shh shh. We are now the Knights Who Say Ekke ekke ekke ptang zoo boing! RANDOM: Ni!
But dropping con shortens the duration of the rage which I think can be a problem.
I didnt know barbarian rage was affected by con. If it is.. how much? Rounds? Turns? _________________ HEAD KNIGHT: Shh shh. We are now the Knights Who Say Ekke ekke ekke ptang zoo boing! RANDOM: Ni!
Okay I am not sure but i do know the rage lasts a number of rounds equal to your con modifier (modified by rage etc). Maybe it is something plus the modifier, say 5 + modifier, there I am unsure. But I dont think a barbarian should have con lower than 14.
Barbarian Rage lasts for
3 + Constitution modifier before using rage + the attribute bonus thingy (ie. 4 for normal, 6 for Greater and 8 for Mighty Rage )
rounds. _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
Not sure how it is in NwN, but in PnP it's 3 rounds + Con modifier including Rage bonus. NwN might be different.
Yes, that's what reads in the Barbarian Rage script's commentary, too. The script itself appears to be faulty to me, because it calculates it the way I said earlier.
Quote: script int nLevel = GetLevelByClass( CLASS_TYPE_BARBARIAN); int nIncrease; int nSave; if (nLevel < 15) { nIncrease = 4; nSave = 2; } else { nIncrease = 6; nSave = 3; } PlayVoiceChat( VOICE_CHAT_BATTLECRY1); //Determine the duration by getting the con modifier after being modified int nCon = 3 + GetAbilityModifier( ABILITY_CONSTITUTION) + nIncrease; effect eStr = EffectAbilityIncrease( ABILITY_CONSTITUTION, nIncrease); effect eCon = EffectAbilityIncrease( ABILITY_STRENGTH, nIncrease);
int nCon = 3 + GetAbilityModifier( ABILITY_CONSTITUTION) + nIncrease;
should be nIncrease / 2 to get the change in modifiers (eg. a stat increase of 4 points nets 4 / 2 = 2 increase in the modifier for that stat).
Or maybe I'm just missing something _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
, and some spells) or AA (Enchant Arrow duh ;D).
.