My goal with this build was a combination of melee presence and defensive superiority. Evil was the best alignment here because it allowed for no required alignment changes and who other than evil would strive for such power?

Champion of Orcus

Bard 5 / Palemaster 16 / Blackguard 19
Human
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Playable 1-40, PvM

STR: 14
DEX: 10
CON: 12
WIS: 10
INT: 14
CHA: 16 (30)

01: Bard(1): Expertise, Improved Expertise
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Power Attack
04: Bard(4): CHA+1, (CHA=17)
05: Pale Master(1)
06: Pale Master(2): Cleave
07: Pale Master(3): PM: (Darkvision)
08: Pale Master(4): CHA+1, (CHA=18)
09: Pale Master(5): Blind Fight
10: Pale Master(6)
11: Blackguard(1)
12: Blackguard(2): CHA+1, Weapon Proficiency Exotic, BG: (Smite Good), (CHA=19)
13: Blackguard(3)
14: Blackguard(4)
15: Blackguard(5): Divine Might
16: Blackguard(6): CHA+1, (CHA=20)
17: Blackguard(7)
18: Blackguard(8): Divine Shield
19: Blackguard(9)
20: Blackguard(10): CHA+1, (CHA=21)
21: Blackguard(11): Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
22: Blackguard(12)
23: Blackguard(13): Epic Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
24: Blackguard(14): CHA+1, Improved Critical: Bastard Sword, (CHA=22)
25: Blackguard(15)
26: Blackguard(16): Epic Prowess
27: Blackguard(17): Improved Power Attack
28: Blackguard(18): CHA+1, (CHA=23)
29: Blackguard(19): Armor Skin
30: Pale Master(7): Great Charisma I, (CHA=24)
31: Pale Master(8)
32: Pale Master(9): CHA+1, (CHA=25)
33: Pale Master(10): Great Charisma II, (CHA=26)
34: Pale Master(11)
35: Pale Master(12)
36: Pale Master(13): CHA+1, Great Charisma III, Epic Energy Resistance: Fire I, (CHA=28)
37: Pale Master(14)
38: Pale Master(15)
39: Pale Master(16): Great Charisma IV, Epic Spell: Epic Mage Armor, (CHA=29)
40: Bard(5): CHA+1, (CHA=30)

Hitpoints: 392
Skillpoints: 231
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 34/32/29
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 32 (melee), 27 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 30/41
Spell Casting: Bard(2)

Concentration 43(44)
Discipline 43(45)
Hide 5(5)
Perform 14(24)
Spellcraft 43(45)
Tumble 40(40)
UMD 43(53)

01: Concentration(4), Discipline(4), Perform(4), Spellcraft(4), UMD(4), Save(8),
02: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Hide(5), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(5), UMD(1),
03: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), UMD(1), Save(2),
04: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), UMD(1), Save(2),
05: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
06: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
07: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
08: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
09: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
10: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
11: Concentration(1), Discipline(7),
12: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
13: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
14: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
15: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
16: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
17: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
18: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
19: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
20: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
21: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
22: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
23: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
24: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
25: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
26: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
27: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
28: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
29: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Save(3),
30: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(20),
31: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
32: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
33: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
34: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
35: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
36: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
37: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
38: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
39: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
40: Concentration(1), Discipline(11), Perform(7), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(35), UMD(36)

Advantages:
Four attacks/round
An impossible AC
Very good Damage Output
Immune to Criticals
Can use any scroll in the game
High saves

Disadvantages:
No evasion
Low AB

Edited By griphook on 10/30/05 21:26

A few questions for you before I comment:

1. How many Turn Undead attempts per day does he get?

2. Why no Extra Smite?

3. Why no Great Smites?
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Ariel, Ookla, RIDE! He should get 22 turns/day if I'm not mistaken. 19 for Blackguard + 3.

As for no Great Smiting/Extra Smiting. I've never been a big fan of smiting. It's very specific and in most cases Smite Good is the least useful of them all. Most monsters are evil and if you use it for PvP everyone picks neutral to avoid the smite.

King Harbromm Why not go strength or str/cha split?

I like the build concept (yay blackguard!) but I think you'd benefit more from having a higher AB in general than you will from being fully charisma-driven.

Edit - also, for playability you might want to take blackguard before you take pale master. Bards are pretty weak on their own and pale master won't add what blackguard will early on (heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency, d10 hitpoints, and warrior AB).
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Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.

Edited By Xylophone on 10/22/05 20:36

I think that with various buffs - be it from Bull's Strength scroll, Darkfire scrolls, Divine Power scrolls, Belts of Giant Strength, etc. - the 14 strength is more than enough. The charisma adding the divine damage is the trump card that should make the damage dealt more than other builds' who use the same buffs (i.e., spellswords or cleric/fighters).

The same arguement would be made for AC. You get all of the buffs, both cleric and wizard, plus the Palemaster bonuses, AND the divine shield bonus.

King Harbromm Well, fully buffed with +12 to strength your AB is still just 38 - lower than many melee builds' unbuffed AB. Your absolute max AB is 58, and you don't have Taunt, which would be a great skill to add to this build in my opinion.

Divine Might only adds to damage, not AB, or I'd have no complaint about your offense. Divine shield is almost overkill considering you get epic mage armor and could get epic warding as well (why don't you get epic warding, by the by?).

Like I said I love the concept but I think you're too heavy on defense and too light on offense for an evil guy. Switching from cha to strength would go a long way to rectify it IMO

Either way good concept good synergy of classes and to each their own preferences
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Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Quote: Posted 10/22/05 20:31:50 (GMT) -- KingHarbromm

He should get 22 turns/day if I'm not mistaken. 19 for Blackguard + 3.
Okay, I wasn't sure. I always thought it was 3 times, +your Charisma modifier. I didn't think BG levels factored, cause Lord knows I've played a few Epic BGs and I always cursed at how few Turn Undead attempts I received. But I'll take your word for it. If it's BG levels it's BG levels.

Quote: As for no Great Smiting/Extra Smiting. I've never been a big fan of smiting. It's very specific and in most cases Smite Good is the least useful of them all. Most monsters are evil and if you use it for PvP everyone picks neutral to avoid the smite.
Tell me about it. It's only good on the villagers, and they die if you just breathe on them.
_________________
Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server
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Ariel, Ookla, RIDE! Actually, I think it is 3 attempts + CHA modifier. And BGs get the shaft because they can't select the Extra Turning feat (Only Pallys and Clerics can take it).
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream... It's 3 + charisma, I know because I just recently made an epic blackguard build using divine might/divine shield. With 22 BG levels he only gets 9 turns per day - 3 (base) +6 (cha mod).
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Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience. You had me right up to the end

Peace I play on a PW where there is both good and evil Factions, and alignment is an issue for where a player can join. I fought a Pally PvP once, we were going at it real good, when he used Smite evil. It hurt. You should see his face when I smote him twice, and he bought the farm. i love Great Smite/Extra smiting. There are good aligned bosses on my PW to. In such a setting one should absolutely use Great Smite with all your CHA. In this build, if you have an item with +12 CHA you will 19 turn attempts, but it has nothing to do with your BG levels.

You also gets a +16 to divine might/Shield which is really good.

I also must tell you one more thing. If someone has an item granting DR magic energy /20, it will reduce for example magic missile and IGMS to a joke. It will not reduce the damage they receive from your Divine Might. Good to know, eh.

This is a good build and your saves are GREAT, but I enjoy Blackguards to much, so my opinion is perhaps not the best.

The only problem as I see it is that you will likely end up in a battle of 20's quite often, so keep AB buffers close to your heart. I play on a PW where there is both good and evil Factions, and alignment is an issue for where a player can join. I fought a Pally PvP once, we were going at it real good, when he used Smite evil. It hurt. You should see his face when I smote him twice, and he bought the farm. i love Great Smite/Extra smiting. There are good aligned bosses on my PW to. In such a setting one should absolutely use Great Smite with all your CHA. In this build, if you have an item with +12 CHA you will 19 turn attempts, but it has nothing to do with your BG levels.

You also gets a +16 to divine might/Shield which is really good.

I also must tell you one more thing. If someone has an item granting DR magic energy /20, it will reduce for example magic missile and IGMS to a joke. It will not reduce the damage they receive from your Divine Might. Good to know, eh.

This is a good build and your saves are GREAT, but I enjoy Blackguards to much, so my opinion is perhaps not the best.

The only problem as I see it is that you will likely end up in a battle of 20's quite often, so keep AB buffers close to your heart. Dang, Grimnir. I heard ya the first time!

King Harbromm