I wish i had a drawn out storyline... but i don't The idea came from a good nwn friend, who hasnt posted here in a long time
This build is in response to a post recently for an "impossible" build. While, I am not posting this to prove that it is possible (it is impossible to have a high ab (base 46 mundane, with base 35 AC, AND epic dodge AND lv 9 divine magic ) this is a build that manages to get close. I ended with a naked AC 29 (30 with small shield), ab of 40/35/30/25 with a mundane mace, epic dodge and lv 9 cleric spells.
BTW, to answer our moderators first question, IF you were to try this build from lv 1, please note, it is a dexed base cleric, and finesse comes in at lv 18! so you have to have some tricks to survive attack wise (i lvled him an noticed that his ab is cleric, using buffs it isnt AS bad as i originally thought). I have playd it through to 16 so far WITH a wpn finesse itm so keep that in mind. IT is playable from lv1 to 40,PvM but requires strategy to get to 18 (either leechin or itms). Here we go:
Halfling (can go elf as well- took halfpint cuz of some suggestions cinn made on an earlier post).
21 wpnmstr6 ewf:mace [tumb5 move sil 8 hide 10] 22 shadwdan1 23 shadwdan2 24 shadwdan3 dex22 epic prowess 25 shadwdan4 26 shadwdan5 27 shadwdan6 gr dex I 28 shadwdan7 dex 24 29 shadwdan8 30 shadwdan9 gr dex II 31 cleric16 32 cleric17 wis 19 33 cleric18 gr dex III 34 cleric19 35 cleric20 36 cleric21 dex 27 imp crit:mace 37 cleric22 38 cleric23 Armor skin 39 shadwdan10 [tum40] EPIC DODGE 40 wpnmstr7 dex 28
AB 40/35/30/25 w/ mundane mace (17-20 *3) AC 30 w/ small shield and clothes (29 base) fort 20 ref 29 will 25
SKILLS: conc 43 ms 8 hide 10 tumb 40 spellcraft 40 +15 left over
Now, when we take into account cleric buffs AC 30 + 2(magic vest 5) + shield of faith (5) = 45 AB +gmw (5) + div fav + div pwr = 54/49/44/39
I know you can get these numbers higher (took war domain for cat's, BUT in reality, i didnt bother with it) yes you have prayer, battletide, aid, aov, etc. I am just illustrating how, for a short time (read one battle) you can have DECENT ab and ac.
BTW, i posted this as a GENERAL outline. Please adapt it any way you want. Feel free to make any suggestions. Things i would do to improve it? Take extended spell to get more div favs and pwrs!
Peace
Edited By griphook on 10/30/05 16:41
Very interesting, and very well done to meet some pretty diverse and high requirements.
An alternative I just put through a leveller module is cleric 23/rogue 13/COT 4. You still get level 9 divine spells and epic dodge and a base AC of 29. You lose 2 AB, but gain sneak attack and saving throws, and benefit more from divine power (DP provides this build's 4th attack at its full AB, so with DP and haste this character gets 3 attacks per round at full AB instead of two).
AC 29 naked AB +38/+33/+28 Fort 27 Ref 33 Will 28 7d6 sneak attack _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
I appreciate the compliment. The truth of this build is that it fit the requirements of a request (almost), the request was actually impossible. Your suggestions are outside of those requests.
While YES it is a valid approach, it is unfortunate that you tried to improve a build by making it less effective (ab, ac, crits, inc multi=damage). I was really hoping that someone would post improvements to this form, not post another build entirely
Peace
I'd hardly call giving a build 3 attacks per round at full AB (instead of 2) higher saves and 7d6 sneak attacks making it weaker. It makes it different, and actually as long as the player consistently creates sneak attack conditions my variant will do more average damage over time against most crittable targets, with the exception of ones that have an AC in a window about 18 to 21 points higher than its AB (where the 2 extra AB ends up making a difference before both builds are in "hit on a 20" territory), and even that is debateable because no matter what your threat range is, as AC goes up, crit rate goes down (since you fail more threat rolls). _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
interesting challenge you have here. first off all, you get an AB of 41 and an AC of 31. Maybe you forgot that Halflings get +1 to AB and AC.
And your quit right, it is impossible to make all the requests.
I dont think that we can make improvements to your build, cuz its very tight on feat. So i think you did the very best in this class combination.
Therefore you should consider others class combinations and replace WM. if you would take Cot or Fighter (more pre-Epic) you can gain more AB, saves or Weaponspecialisation. You get Weapon finess earlier and can pick up nice feat. like IKD and Blindfight.
The other Option would be Monk for better AC.
For the lost damage of changing WM you can fight with 2 weapons like kukris or Kama.
And if you take Rogue instead of SD you get more skillpoints and sneaks for more damage.
Hope thats helps a bit. _________________ Adventure - is the result of poor planning
I can get a little closer with a Halfling Cleric 17/CoT10/SD13, admitidly you lose some of the WM bonuses, so the damage output is quite poor. He uses throwing axes to get the good aim bonus, and uses a mace which is finessable. Mace AB is 40 due to no good aim or EWF. Final stats are as follows. Let me know if you would like a full build breakdown.
Why take all those feats needed for Weapon master when you only take 7 levels of it? You would get closer in AB by going Fighter or even CoT. Take 8 CoT pre epic, and your AB will be tha same as with WM. Yeah yeah, those crits. Not worth 6 feats IMO *actually more, since you get some from CoT or fighter. I never do WM if I ain't aiming for at least 16, preferably at least 19. If you don't care about xp penalty, go Clc16/SD10/Fighter 14. If you don't want xp penalty, try Clc8/SD4/Cot8 pre epic, ending on Clc16/SD10/CoT14. That could give you some needed WIS from the CoT levels, opening feats for other things.
I think this build would benefit from rogue though, so Clc17/Rog13/CoT10 would be viable to.
WM7 isn't a good choice IMO. In the original post i wanted WM to get close to AB 46. It worked. But WM7 doesn't do enough. Tough build to get right.
Just to contribute. Ah your getting me to post Avado Weapon Master makes sense if playing on a moderate to high magic world due to the additional multiplier that works great with higher specification weapons, especially if Dex orientated. Furthermore, this is increased again by divine favour and Battletide. From my experience having Expertise can be a lifesaver (which helps justify the higher Int and its requirement with WM).
The build I use on a tough PW is as follows, sorry to add to yours Avado but I thought I would add to the flavours The build works for me because the world can be classified as a moderate to high magic world.
Could swap Great Wis and Improved Combat casting if preferable. Could forget Discipline and replace Epic Skill Discipline with either Armour Skin or Improved Expertise.
Personally, this is my favourite cleric build to date that I play, good damage (with a decent magic weapon), highly defensive with spells, good AC using the Undeaths Eternal Foe-expertise, and epic dodge-improved combat casting. High Damage when fighting a single boss type is achieved with the use of spamming many extended creeping dooms, while going toe-to-toe with it and critting.
Edited By lala_truthsayer on 10/27/05 00:42
THnaks lala. Guess why its the TS secret agent! LMAO
I appreciate that grim i was not at 46! WM7 is a waste? Hmm... i cant seem to agree with that statement. It really depends on what you want from the build. Adding rogue to the build is not what i wanted. It is a preference thing. I understand that you really like cleric/rog. Post it where it would be more relavant, ie under your own post. That way we could go in your post and critique it. It is unfair to post a totally different build under another players post, UNLESS that player asks for a different approach(which i did not, btw. I askd for improvement NOT change).
To say sneak damage is as effective as crits.. well. What if you are soloin? With a 10-20 range you really will do more damage overall, especially with 4 attaks and div and such. The only thing i wish is that i could of added divine might with a high charisma.. that would be sooo sweet, but impossible
I appreciate lala's suggestions cuz he was the one who suggested the concept to me (TS ) Indeed, his use of elf is what I have done also. I took halfling for the post to increase the ab/ac to get closer numbers. I now understand my friend! See you on b
Peace
Quote: Posted 10/27/05 04:15:27 (GMT) -- avado
I appreciate that grim i was not at 46! WM7 is a waste? Hmm... i cant seem to agree with that statement. It really depends on what you want from the build. Adding rogue to the build is not what i wanted. It is a preference thing. I understand that you really like cleric/rog. Post it where it would be more relavant, ie under your own post. That way we could go in your post and critique it. It is unfair to post a totally different build under another players post, UNLESS that player asks for a different approach(which i did not, btw. I askd for improvement NOT change).
To say sneak damage is as effective as crits.. well. What if you are soloin? With a 10-20 range you really will do more damage overall,
Peace
A totally different build is unfair to post, you say to me????? Hm, I mention that rogue is viable in 1 line! And you have built to meet certain requirements, I made other approaches to meet them. The build wouldn't be totally different, in fact it would be very close. That makes you think I like Cleric/Rogue? Never played it, probably never will. Who said sneak was as effective as crits? Not me. As for WM, I stand by what i said, not worth it only for 7 levels. Maybe for you, but I make MY suggestions to your build. Not necessarily improvements, but viable changes, and changes to get closer to requirements perhaps.
peace
And as I said, it is a tough build to get the most of.
Darkness + ultravision = sneak attack, solo or not. With 23 cleric levels you can also use summons. After a little practice it's very reliable to create sneak attack opportunities even when solo.
And I didn't say that sneak attacks necessarily were better than crits - it depends on how many sneak dice you get if that's true or not - but I did say that a build that gets three attacks at a slightly lower full AB and 7d6 sneak attack damage will exceed the damage output of a build that has a 17-20 threat range (which is what your build gets) and two attacks at full AB, except possibly in a very narrow AC window (where the AC is 18 to 21 points higher than the lower AB).
In other words, even though my build is 2 points under in AB, it actually hits more often against many enemies because it gets the haste attack and divine power attack at full AB for an attack schedule of 38/33/28/38/38. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Darkness + ultravision = sneak attack, solo or not. With 23 cleric levels you can also use summons. After a little practice it's very reliable to create sneak attack opportunities even when solo.
And I didn't say that sneak attacks necessarily were better than crits - it depends on how many sneak dice you get if that's true or not - but I did say that a build that gets three attacks at a slightly lower full AB and 7d6 sneak attack damage will exceed the damage output of a build that has a 17-20 threat range (which is what your build gets) and two attacks at full AB, except possibly in a very narrow AC window (where the AC is 18 to 21 points higher than the lower AB).
In other words, even though my build is 2 points under in AB, it actually hits more often against many enemies because it gets the haste attack and divine power attack at full AB for an attack schedule of 38/33/28/38/38.
Fair points but both WM builds get 4 attacks per round, with the Elf build the crit range is quite good due to use of Scim. To me both are good but have different values depending upon the world played. To be honest though, on tough worlds I am yet to see lvl40+ bosses without Trueseeing. The world I play now usually have lvl40+ bosses with 8000 to 10,000 of hitpoints, AB in the 70s, and hit for anywhere from 75 to 130 dmg, most also have Trueseeing. For me the WM build works much better than rogue when soloing. And yet others could point to world where bosses are crit immune..... Both have their place
Okay let me put it this way:
Cleric/WM build gets 4 attacks per round naturally at +40/+35/+30/+25. Then you get one more attack when hasted at +40. So your attack schedule is +40/+35/+30/+25/+40.
Cleric/rogue build gets 3 attacks per round naturally at +38/+33/+28. Then you get an additional attack when hasted at +38 and another additional attack when using divine power at +38. So your attack schedule is +38/+33/+28/+38/+38.
In the end both builds get the same number of attacks, but the second gets two attacks from buffs instead of one. The first build doesn't get the full benefit of divine power since it already has 4 attacks.
The result though is that against a target that's not in a certain AC range, the second build will hit it more often.
The simple way to see this is to add up the attack schedule - the first build with +40 AB has a full attack schedule of +170, the second build has a full attack schedule of +175. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
The reality is a bit different in my own experience - played extensively both types of builds. I will always stay with WM if going Dex based (wanting to solo) and playing on a server that uses Truesight on bosses and certain mobs. I found that Sneak is nice when in a group but solo I found it rather tedious as my damage is nowhere near as good as a WM version.
So the conclusion is there are 2 builds both that are good, that have different Pros and Cons.
Ideally you'd be able to figure out a WM build that uses a high-threat weapon, gets a high AB, but also gets the divine power attack intead of a natural 4th attack. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Ideally you'd be able to figure out a WM build that uses a high-threat weapon, gets a high AB, but also gets the divine power attack intead of a natural 4th attack.
Yep and its not fun going up against beholders or getting dispelled by greater dispel or Mords
Ideally you'd be able to figure out a WM build that uses a high-threat weapon, gets a high AB, but also gets the divine power attack intead of a natural 4th attack.
Yep and its not fun going up against beholders or getting dispelled by greater dispel or Mords
That's true for any cleric build _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
The idea came from a good nwn friend, who hasnt posted here in a long time 
) this is a build that manages to get close. I ended with a naked AC 29 (30 with small shield), ab of 40/35/30/25 with a mundane mace, epic dodge and lv 9 cleric spells.
so keep that in mind. 
As for WM, I stand by what i said, not worth it only for 7 levels. Maybe for you, but I make MY suggestions to your build. Not necessarily improvements, but viable changes, and changes to get closer to requirements perhaps.