This runs off of the Undead Dragon Skald Click Here This one has three epic spells. You get Greater Ruin but you lose level 5 bard spells and the improved bard song from level 10 to 14 bard. The skills is a wash because you get 7 more levels of 16 intelligence after losing 8 skill points for the 4 fewer bard levels. Your fortitude got better at the expense of your reflexes (already very weak but you will be immune to a lot that reflex saves help against). All else remains the same.

Bard 10/Palemaster16/RDD 14 – Human
PvP or PvM
Playable 1-40 (easier 4-40)

Str: 17 (36)
Int: 14 (16)
Dex: 12
Wis: 8
Con: 10 (12)
Cha: 13 (15)


1 Bard-1- Heavy Armor, Martial Weapon
2 Bard-2
3 Bard-3- Power Attack
4 Bard -4- Str 18
5 Bard 5 [Lore-8]
6 RDD-1 Cleave
7 RDD-2 RDD Str 20
8 RDD-3 Str 21
9 RDD-4 RDD Str 23 WF: Rapier
10 RDD-5
11 RDD-6
12 RDD-7 Str 24, RDD Con 12, Imp. Crit Rapier
13 RDD-8
14 RDD 9 RDD Int 16
15 RDD 10 RDD Str 28, Cha 16 Curse Song
16 Bard 6 Str 29
17 Bard 7
18 RDD 11 Great Cleave
19 RDD 12
20 Bard 8 Str 30
21 Pale 1 OverCrit
22 Pale 2
23 Pale 3
24 Pale-4 Str 31, Dev Crit
25 Pale-5
26 Pale-6
27 Bard 9 EWF
28 Pale-7 Str 32,
29 Pale-8
30 Pale-9 Epic SF: Discipline;
31 Pale-10
32 Pale 11 Str 33
33 Pale-12 Great Strength I (34)
34 Pale-13 ES: Still Spell
35 Pale-14
36 Pale-15 Str 35, ES: Epic Warding
37 RDD 13
38 RDD 14 Armor Skin
39 Pale-16 ES: Greater Ruin; ES: Epic Mage Armor
40 Bard-10 Str 36


AC 42 (10 + 8 plate + 3 shield + 4 RDD + 6 PM + 1 dex + 8 TUM +2 ArmorSkin)

AB 41 (25 BA + 13 STR + 3 EWF)

Saves: Fort 23 (29 v. spells); Ref: 19 (29 v. spells); Will: 23 (31 v. spells)

Skills (264): Lore: 8
Discipline: 43
Listen: 43
Spellcraft: 37
Tumble: 40
Perform: 13
UMD: 43
Taunt: 43
Heal: 35
Open Lock: 2/1
Set Traps: 2/1
Disable: 2/1

Palemaster Special Abilities & Feats
Level 1 Bone Skin
Level 2 Animate Dead
Level 3 Darkvision
Level 4 Summon Undead
Level 5 Deathless Vigor
Level 6 Undead Graft I
Level 7 Tough as Bone
Level 8 Undead Graft II
Level 9 Summon Greater Undead
Level 10 Deathless Master Touch
Deathless Mastery

RDD Special Abilities & Feats
Level 1 Draconic Armor
Hit Die Increase (d6)
Level 2 Draconic Abilities
Level 3 Dragon Breath
Level 4 Hit Die Increase (d8)
Level 6 Hit Die Increase (d10)
Level 9 Wings
Level 10 Half-Dragon - Darkvison
Immune to Fire, Paralysis, Sleep

So there. In the final analysis, I don't know that I would prefer Greater Ruin over level 5 spells.
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Edited By griphook on 10/30/05 18:26

One thing. You can't have more than 10 levels from any PrC before epic levels. You have 12 RDD when you hit 20. Not possible. You have to move aruond around some PM levels. You will lose 1 AB in the process, but nothing else , I think. It never ends!!!!!!!!


Thanks, Grim. I concede the field. i wonder, why take more than 10 levels of rdd?
i mean, its just another extra feat (and a little enhancing of the breath weapon, which is pretty useless), and if you really want armor skin then perhaps you can give up epic skill focus: discipline.
Quote: Posted 10/26/05 15:57:05 (GMT) -- Chfutzin

i wonder, why take more than 10 levels of rdd?
i mean, its just another extra feat (and a little enhancing of the breath weapon, which is pretty useless), and if you really want armor skin then perhaps you can give up epic skill focus: discipline.

That's a good point.

Ithacan: take 4 more PM levels. It gets you +2 AC from the increase in the Boneskin feat (so that offsets the loss of Armor Skin) as well as another PM bonus feat, which can be used for another epic spell if you wish.

One thing: you have Still Spell taken at level 34 as the PM13 bonus feat. I don't think that works. I believe your only option there is Epic Energy Resistance. I could be wrong on that though.

*edit* You alsohave Curse Song taken at level 15 (RDD 10). That won't work. You can only take Curse Song when levelling as a Bard (or as a HS bonus feat). Easy enough to fix: just switch your Bard 6 level and your RDD 10 level.

I would also suggest starting with 12 CHA. You end with 15 CHA, but with only 10 Bard levels, you can only cast level 4 spells anyway. I'd also drop STR to 16 and raise CON to 14 to start. CON 10 isn't going to cut it for a melee build. Then, drop that GRT STR I in epic. Replace it with Armor Skin if you want the extra 2 AC (assuming you make the change to take 20 PM) or Epic Prowess to regain the 1 AB you lose by ending with 34 STR instead of 36. Lastly, take 5 points out of Heal and put them in Spellcraft (raising it to 42). It will give you another +1 on your saves vs spells.
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Edited By Cinnabar Din on 10/26/05 16:25

Cin's not wrong. You can't take Still Spell as a PM bonus feat.

Welcome to the Deathless Pariah Club!
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Ariel, Ookla, RIDE! Oh, and about the Deathless Master touch: IIRC it goes up by +1 (starts at DC 17) every 2 PM levels after 10. This is in reference to the discussion in your link to the other build.
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Quote: Posted 10/26/05 16:28:11 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din

Oh, and about the Deathless Master touch: IIRC it goes up by +1 (starts at DC 17) every 2 PM levels after 10. This is in reference to the discussion in your link to the other build.

Thanks Cin. Better than a fixed 17 DC, but also nothing to count on. Pity there's no stat bonus added to DC Sooooooo (a completely different build that takes in the comments above ):

Bard 10/Palemaster20/RDD 10 – Human
PvP or PvM
Playable 1-40

Str: 18 (36)
Int: 14 (16)
Dex: 10
Wis: 8
Con: 10 (12)
Cha: 12 (14)


1 Bard-1- Heavy Armor, Martial Weapon
2 Bard-2
3 Bard-3- WF: Rapier
4 Bard -4- Str 19
5 Bard 5 [Lore-8]
6 RDD-1 Power Attack
7 RDD-2 RDD Str 21
8 RDD-3 Str 22
9 RDD-4 RDD Str 24 Cleave
10 RDD-5
11 RDD-6
12 RDD-7 Str 25, RDD Con 12, Imp. Crit Rapier
13 RDD-8
14 Pale 1
15 Bard 6 Curse Song
16 Pale 2 Str 26
17 Bard 7
18 Pale 3 Great Cleave
19 Pale 4
20 Bard 8 Str 27
21 RDD-9 RDD Int 16 OverCrit
22 RDD-10 RDD Str 31, Cha 14
23 Pale 5
24 Pale-6 Str 32, Dev Crit
25 Pale-7
26 Pale-8
27 Bard 9 EWF
28 Pale-9 Str 33
29 Pale-10
30 Pale-11 Epic SF: Discipline
31 Pale-12
32 Pale 13 Str 34 Epic Energy Resistance (Any but Fire)
33 Pale-14 Armor Skin
34 Pale-15
35 Pale-16 ES: Epic Warding
36 Pale-17 Str 35, ES: Epic Mage Armor
37 Pale-18
38 Pale-19 ES: Greater Ruin
39 Pale-20 Epic Prowess (or ES: Hell Ball or ES: Dragon Knight)
40 Bard-10 Str 36

AC 47 (10 + 8 plate + 3 shield + 4 RDD + 12 PM + 8 TUM +2 ArmorSkin)

AB 41 (24 BA + 13 STR + 3 EWF + 1 Epic Prowess)

Saves: Fort 21 (29 v. spells); Ref: 19 (27 v. spells); Will: 25 (33 v. spells)

Skills (264):
Lore: 8
Discipline: 43
Listen: 43
Spellcraft: 37
Tumble: 40
Perform: 13
UMD: 43
Taunt: 43
Heal: 30
Open Lock: 2/1
Disable: 2/1

I had to lose 'set traps' but the other lost skill points come right out of perform, which a 10th level bard doesn't need as much of. I ramped initial strength up to 18 at the cost of the 2 dex and 1 charisma point, which you don't need anymore (as Cin pointed out) since you won't be casting level 5 spells.

This is a better build that has surely been built better.



til next time (when mayhap I will fare better),

Ithacan


Palemaster Special Abilities & Feats
Level 1 Bone Skin
Level 2 Animate Dead
Level 3 Darkvision
Level 4 Summon Undead
Level 5 Deathless Vigor
Level 6 Undead Graft I
Level 7 Tough as Bone
Level 8 Undead Graft II
Level 9 Summon Greater Undead
Level 10 Deathless Master Touch
Deathless Mastery

RDD Special Abilities & Feats
Level 1 Draconic Armor
Hit Die Increase (d6)
Level 2 Draconic Abilities
Level 3 Dragon Breath
Level 4 Hit Die Increase (d8)
Level 6 Hit Die Increase (d10)
Level 9 Wings
Level 10 Half-Dragon - Darkvison
Immune to Fire, Paralysis, Sleep

Edited By Ithacan on 10/26/05 19:14

Ithacan: that looks better, but I'd still advise going with 16 STR and 14 CON (put the other 2 points into DEX). This is basically a melee build and although you have a really good AC, your HPs are only in the vicinity of 340 if you max every level. If you start with 14 CON, you'll at least have the potential for over 400 HPs. You only lose 1 AB and 1 damage.
_________________
Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream... you lose one point from your AB and one point from your damage but you gain one point to your AC. plus, if you elect to use a two-hander (like I almost always do, no matter how it looks in the build, I can't help myself), the 12 point modifier goes to 18 points damage while the 13 point modifier only goes to 19. It's a tweener, in other words.

I bow in your general direction.

Thanks, all. 352 HP max starting with 10 CON -> 432 max starting with 14 CON. Cin, what would you say about 11 bard instead? Worth the loss of AC in the end for one more use and a stronger bardsong, and more skill dumps? Personally I'd not build it with Dev Crit You just don't get enough feats without a fighter class and also wanting Epic Spells...

BTW, in your of rebuild rebuild post, I think you'll find you've spent 304 skillpoints
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(OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life...
(|__|)
..".."..

Edited By Jennalee on 10/27/05 08:15

Quote: Posted 10/27/05 07:55:15 (GMT) -- Jennalee

352 HP max starting with 10 CON -> 432 max starting with 14 CON. Cin, what would you say about 11 bard instead? Worth the loss of AC in the end for one more use and a stronger bardsong, and more skill dumps?

11 Bard levels would have to give up either a PM level -- and two AC points for it -- or an RDD level (no sale -- +4 strength and +2 charisma, plus the immunities). For a slightly better bard song that will, in turn, require more skill points into perform.

Quote: Personally I'd not build it with Dev Crit You just don't get enough feats without a fighter class and also wanting Epic Spells...

Have we met? Perhaps you've seen my work before. Dev Crit-o-holic.

Quote: BTW, in your of rebuild rebuild post, I think you'll find you've spent 304 skillpoints

Doh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Drop taunt but don't be happy about it. Or heal (but that is just dead useful).

Thanks. Meh Dev-crit a-holic...

BTW you also took points in listen. Wouldn't you consider giving that up instead?
_________________
.:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in
(OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life...
(|__|)
.."..".. Not on my PW, anyway, or discipline. Sneak and disarm are real big there. Listen is dead useful, particularly for a bard (amplify +20). But absolutely, build to taste. Gah - just about everyone mentions that something or rather is for where they play but never mentions where they play. Maybe it'd be nice to mention the server? o_o.

Anyhow, when I see this build, somehow I have an image of a big, nasty bone dragon with a wicked heavy flail (and pretty much has the AC to use one too). Blunt and spiky objects seem more painful and interesting than a big, straight sword (gs)
_________________
.:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in
(OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life...
(|__|)
.."..".. Hmmm, Bard 11 gives you +2 AC on the Song, which would make up for the loss of the AC by dropping a PM level. However, it's only a temporary AC boost. But, the Curse Song would strip 2 AC from your opponents, effectively boosting your AB by 2 as well. And the level 11 Bard Song only costs 3 more Perform over the level 8 Song. It's a thought.
_________________
Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Quote: Posted 10/28/05 14:28:09 (GMT) -- Jennalee

Gah - just about everyone mentions that something or rather is for where they play but never mentions where they play. Maybe it'd be nice to mention the server? o_o.

Tell you what, you find me a PvP server that does NOT have a bunch of maniacs running around sneaking and disarming, lol. And I play in the Badlands.

Seriously, though, unless you have True Sight or a high spot skill, I think listen is more or less indispensable. And unlike spot, listen works through doors and helps initiative.

Quote: Anyhow, when I see this build, somehow I have an image of a big, nasty bone dragon with a wicked heavy flail (and pretty much has the AC to use one too). Blunt and spiky objects seem more painful and interesting than a big, straight sword (gs)

Blasphemy!!!! Nothing is more painful or interesting than a big, straight sword!!!

Again, build to taste. I am leveling this and use a greatsword despite the obvious detriment to AC. A great flail would have a very similar effect. And I believe that fewer creatures are immune to bludgeoning damage than slashing, so it has that salutary effect.

Edited By Ithacan on 10/28/05 15:22

Quote: Posted 10/28/05 03:21:41 (GMT) -- Jennalee

Meh Dev-crit a-holic...


I have had many a PvP fight go the right way (truth, justice, and vengeance for me) with a timely dev crit.

Dead useful, that Devastating Critical. Worth the many, many feats it takes to get there.
Quote: Posted 10/28/05 14:29:37 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din

Hmmm, Bard 11 gives you +2 AC on the Song, which would make up for the loss of the AC by dropping a PM level. However, it's only a temporary AC boost. But, the Curse Song would strip 2 AC from your opponents, effectively boosting your AB by 2 as well. And the level 11 Bard Song only costs 3 more Perform over the level 8 Song. It's a thought.

dang, they raise'em smart in the Orion Arm. You'd have to consider it. You get an extra fourth level spell, too. To cast and to know, which is big for the bard build.
Quote: Posted 10/28/05 14:29:37 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din

Hmmm, Bard 11 gives you +2 AC on the Song, which would make up for the loss of the AC by dropping a PM level. However, it's only a temporary AC boost. But, the Curse Song would strip 2 AC from your opponents, effectively boosting your AB by 2 as well. And the level 11 Bard Song only costs 3 more Perform over the level 8 Song. It's a thought.

The Grimoire indicates that the bard song kicks up from level 8 at level 11 but curse song kicks up from level 8 at level 12 - is that right? Or is the Grimoire slightly off. It is the only level that curse does not track bard song. I was wondering whether Lasting inspiration requires an epic bard...if not it would be nice to fit it in Lasting Inspiration needs not-quite-epic bard (level 20) so he can't get it. He can get Lingering Song though if he wanted.
_________________
.:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in
(OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life...
(|__|)
..".."..
Quote: Posted 11/27/05 15:54:19 (GMT) -- Jennalee

Lasting Inspiration needs not-quite-epic bard (level 20) so he can't get it. He can get Lingering Song though if he wanted.

Are you sure Jenna? I checked the Grimoire and it says:

Lasting Inspiration
Type of Feat: (Epic) General
Prerequisite: Perform 25, 21st level, Bard Song
Specifics: This feat allows the effects of bardic music to last ten times
longer.
Use: Automatic

Lingering song is just 5 rounds more duration, I dunno whether it is worth it
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Quote: Ithacan
The Grimoire indicates that the bard song kicks up from level 8 at level 11 but curse song kicks up from level 8 at level 12 - is that right? Or is the Grimoire slightly off. It is the only level that curse does not track bard song.
'
Right on that.
Quote: Kail Pendragon
Are you sure Jenna? I checked the Grimoire and it says:

Lasting Inspiration
Type of Feat: (Epic) General
Prerequisite: Perform 25, 21st level, Bard Song
Specifics: This feat allows the effects of bardic music to last ten times
longer.
Use: Automatic
Wrong on that.
Quote: "
Lingering song is just 5 rounds more duration, I dunno whether it is worth it
Lingering Song means 50% more duration. Worth it if you ask me.
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Now is my day's work done;
I'll take good breath:
Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of
blood and death. Just a thought Ithacan, you should ask griphook to delete your original build and rename the subject line to match your very different, reposted build.

That's probably a better approach than locking this thread and posting your revised build in a new thread (since you'd lose all the relevant discussion).

Cheers.
Kaliban.
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