Gains double save bonus from charisma buffing (paladin and BG grace stacking).
FAQ: Q: This build requires an alignment change and exploits the fact that fallen paladins and COTs don't lose their bonuses, and on top of that, the paladin/blackguard divine grace stacking bug! That's super cheesey! A: No and yes. In this case the build is very roleplaying oriented - it is the character of a holy knight who's fallen and become lost, turning into a dark blackguard. Pen and paper paladins who turn into blackguards get special powers and bonuses, which this build can't replicate exactly, but the "doubled up power" from divine feats and such goes a long way towards making the paladin/blackguard combination the potent infernal warrior it is in pen and paper.
The alignment change isn't difficult or onerous, and you only need to change once. You can start going from good to neutral as early as level 9-10, and then neutral to evil at level 18-19. Even in the OCs, this isn't hard, just shake down NPCs for money when it's time to change alignment.
Q: Okay so let's say I don't think the build is cheesey... what's the up shot of this build? A: It's meant to be an offense/defense/divine warrior balance build, with the "fallen knight" RP angle.
The character has a good AB of +42, and the maximum BAB possible (30). He adds 7d6 sneak attacks to that, and can further boost his offense with smiting, offensive lay hands, divine might, divine wrath, BG bull strength, and paladin buffs such as bless weapon or divine favor. Taunt can provide additional offensive power and open enemies to called shots and knockdowns.
Defensively the character has armor class comparable to other strength-based plate wearers, but can increase it significantly with divine shield when needed. His saves are superb, and he has immunity to fear and disease.
On top of all that, he can summon the epic vrock for assistance in battle.
Q: Why not take devestating critical? A: You easily can, as both overwhelming crit and devestating crit are available as blackguard bonus feats. However with 26 strength the save DC on dev crit won't be very high, and the feats he takes in their place are pretty nice to have too. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Q: This build requires an alignment change and exploits the fact that fallen paladins and COTs don't lose their bonuses, and on top of that, the paladin/blackguard divine grace stacking bug! That's super cheesey! A: No and yes.
Just "yes".
Do we at least get a story with this? _________________ What I'm reading now: The White Spider by Heinrich Harrer.
Yummy ... I love cheese! *drools*
Nice build but now you made me want to know about the PnP fallen paladin special powers.
Q: This build requires an alignment change and exploits the fact that fallen paladins and COTs don't lose their bonuses, and on top of that, the paladin/blackguard divine grace stacking bug! That's super cheesey! A: No and yes.
Just "yes".
Do we at least get a story with this?
I don't consider an alignment change in one direction that can be accomplished in two steps to be cheesey. Your character was a good and noble paladin, but for whatever reason he or she falls from grace and turns evil, becoming a blackguard.
If you ever wanted to play Aribeth, this is practically the blueprint Though I'd write her a better story than the OC
The whole paladin/BG double-saves thing is an exploit in strict terms, but a "true pen and paper" paladin/blackguard would actually be even more powerful than this in many ways - just with lower saves and without Divine Wrath or a useful Smite Evil. In which case you'd probably either sub Fighter for COT, or use an "anti-COT" prestige class instead. The PRC probably has one, in fact.
As for a story, I'll try and write one up to redeem the build a bit, but I am afraid of falling into the "Bob the Paladin was good. Then someone ran off with his wife, kicked his dog, and his ford truck broke down so he turned into a blackguard and killed his wife, fed her lover to the dog, and bought a chevy instead" trap. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
"Bob the Paladin was good. Then someone ran off with his wife, kicked his dog, and his ford truck broke down so he turned into a blackguard and killed his wife, fed her lover to the dog, and bought a chevy instead".
I love that Garth Brooks song! _________________ What I'm reading now: The White Spider by Heinrich Harrer.
Anyway here is a link to an article on the WOTC site about what a blackguard's powers are... I can't find the paladin/BG one but I've seen on these forums a listing before.
Basically instead of a few spell-like abilities the 'real' blackguard has its own set of memorizable spells with a spell progression based on level, and something that isn't in NWN at all - he has an aura that causes enemies near him to suffer -2 to all saving throws.
From what I remember, a fallen paladin/BG does get to keep their lay hands ability but it is changed to be self-and-fiend only, and at level 10 gains an undead minion that can't be turned in addition to the fiendish minion, and all the other powers of the blackguard. I also kinda think they get extra uses of smite good.
So, lower saves than NWN, but keeps lay hands, gains smites, and gets some kind of special undead critter. And maybe more. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
I don't consider an alignment change in one direction that can be accomplished in two steps to be cheesey. Your character was a good and noble paladin, but for whatever reason he or she falls from grace and turns evil, becoming a blackguard.
The small alignment change itself isn't cheesy, and can be quite realistically explained within RP parameters. What's cheesy (and an abuse of the NWN game engine) is that a 'fallen paladin' is able to retain every single divine ability from their former Lawful Good life. It makes absolutely no sense that an evil Blackguard can still draw divine abilities from a Lawful Good diety at the same time they're manifesting the evil ways of their new diety. IMHO, regardless of what PnP rules say, an NWN Paladin/Blackguard retaining Paladin divine abilities is an exploit. And your particular build (with CoT) is even more of an exploit for your evil Blackguard still draws upon powers granted by Torm.
Kaliban. _________________ What I'm reading now: The White Spider by Heinrich Harrer.
Edited By Kaliban99 on 10/30/05 12:16
Darn, you beat me to it. I have been working on a paladin/Blackguard. A bit different though. It's a build that gives you good rp opportunities, if you want to. You are using some serious exploits of the NwN systems, but every build here is like that. Skill dumps are an exploit to. A paladin in PnP loses all and every divine powers he has gained as a paladin, but if he becomes a BG, he can trade levels. His lay on hands works, but only on himself. Interesting build.
I managed to get a copy of DM guide 3.5 and blackguards who are fallen paladins indeed get lotsa extra stuff the more paladin lvls they have. They can also choose to trade pally lvls for blackguard but only if they have 11 or more pally lvls but by doing so they lose the extra abilities granted by fallen paladin lvls. Overall quite cool! Pity it doesn't work like that in NWN...at least we have the exploits
Yeah, the double up saves and keeping the smite evil, unchanged lay hands, sacred defense, and divine wrath is an exploit, that's not something I argued. My "no and yes" answer in the build faq is that no, I don't think the alignment change is bad, but I do think some of the divine powers, particularly the doubled charisma bonus to saves, is exploitative.
I'd rather the pen and paper version - would lose saves, but gain memorizable spells as a blackguard. I would see that as a stronger character overall.
My choice of COT was driven mostly by concept, but also to squeeze more out of the charisma stat. The saves and divine feats that strongly leverage charisma are what give the build a differentiation... generally melee characters who use charisma don't benefit as much from raising charisma as they do from raising strength... this character could actually afford to shift 2 or 4 strength points into charisma and still have a very workable AB. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Aaah, a fallen paladin. I think it's rather interesting to RP this. It's interesting to say the least.
The fact that this an exploit is not the players fault. I'm guessing alot of people made a Pal/BG just for the RP part before they even knew about the 'exploit'.
Good Job Xylo
Quote: Posted 10/31/05 15:43:56 (GMT) -- Bearke
Aaah, a fallen paladin. I think it's rather interesting to RP this. It's interesting to say the least.
The fact that this an exploit is not the players fault. I'm guessing alot of people made a Pal/BG just for the RP part before they even knew about the 'exploit'.
Good Job Xylo
If someone wants to "RP a 'Fallen Paladin'" in NWN, why don't they just roll up a Fighter/Blackguard? Or play a Paladin up to the level at which they want to 'fall', then roll up a Fighter, use DebugMode to level up the Fallen Paladin, then transfer the gear over to the new character, and start taking Blackguard levels?
Now I must be the only old-fashioned one here, but it doesn't seem very RP-ish to play an Evil anti-paladin, yet still draw upon powers and bennies from the paladin's diety.
Come on - If you're going to abuse the game engine at least call it what it is, don't sugarcoat it and call it Role Playing.
<Xylo, I'll stop spamming your build thread. Such rants are better suited in the General Discussion forum.>
Kaliban. _________________ What I'm reading now: The White Spider by Heinrich Harrer.
Edited By Kaliban99 on 10/31/05 16:38
Here's the deal on fallen Pallys from the 3.5 rules:
Quote: Fallen Paladins
Blackguards who have levels in the paladin class (that is to say, are now ex-paladins) gain extra abilities the more levels of paladin they have. A fallen paladin who becomes a blackguard gains all of the following abilities that apply, according to the number of paladin levels the character has.
1–2: Smite good 1/day. (This is in addition to the ability granted to all blackguards at 2nd level).
3–4: Lay on hands. Once per day, the blackguard can use this supernatural ability to cure himself or his fiendish servant of damage equal to his Charisma bonus x his level.
5–6: Sneak attack damage increased by +1d6. Smite good 2/day.
7–8: Fiendish summoning. Once per day, the blackguard can use a summon monster I spell to call forth an evil creature. For this spell, the caster level is double the blackguard’s class level.
9–10: Undead companion. In addition to the fiendish servant, the blackguard gains (at 5th level) a Medium-size skeleton or zombie as a companion. This companion cannot be turned or rebuked and gains all special bonuses as a fiendish servant when the blackguard gains levels. Smite good 3/day.
11 or more: A fallen paladin of this stature immediately gains a blackguard level for each level of paladin he trades in. The character level of the character does not change. With the loss of paladin levels, the character no longer gains as many extra abilities for being a fallen paladin.
And another quote from the 3.5 DM's Guide (the above was from the SRD):
Quote: Evil deities like nothing more than to see a pure heart corrupted, and thus a fallen paladin of this stature immediately gains a blackguard level for each level of paladin he trades in. For example, a character who has twelve levels of paladin can immediately become a 10th-level blackguard with all abilities if he chooses to lose ten levels of paladin. The character level of the character does not change. This, of course, is in every way a profitable trade for the evil character, since he has already lost most of the benefits he gained from having those paladin levels. However, with the loss of paladin levels, the character no longer gains as many extra abilities for being a fallen paladin. Thus, a fallen 15th level paladin could become a 10th-level blackguard/5th level paladin and gain the first three extra abilities on this chart because of the character's remaining five levels of paladin. Smite good 4x/day.
So, there's some argument to be made for the Pally/BG combo and the retention of some of the powers/abilities. However, the way it's implemented in NWN does lend a large value of cheese to it since the Pally powers aren't stripped (and the stacking saves is big cheese too).
FWIW, I think this is an extremely cheesy combination (in NWN). That being said, you've done a nice job with the build, Xylo and I especially appreciate the fact there's only a single alignment shift and not a lot of back and forth with it. Once the character's evil, he stays evil. That gets a big thumbs up from me at least. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
I don't think it's spam it's a relevant discussion
The game engine's inability to handle fallen paladins/COTs makes this build more powerful than it would be if you lost your good-aligned class powers. That's an exploit by definition - a flaw in the mechanics is used to advantage.
But let's look at what you keep and how much of a benefit it is: let's face it, keeping three paladin spells per day, 3/day smite evil, 1/day lay hands, and 1/day divine wrath isn't exactly overpowered. It's the old charisma-driven character issue: the more you rely on charisma for offense, the less powerful you are once you burn through your divine feats - which usually only takes one hard fight.
Keeping sacred defense is pretty bad, since that's an all-the-time bonus. The double saves from charisma is really bad since it is an obvious bug, and powerful because it will boost your saves by +12 with full charisma buffing instead of +6. So the saves are where the real cheese is at in my opinion - your saves unbuffed are 10 higher than they should be (5 double charisma, 5 COT) and could go up to 16 higher than they should be (11 double charisma, 5 COT).
I'd have absolutely no complaint if bioware were to fix the double charisma bug at very least, even if they can't fix things up to make paladin/blackguard do what it should via pen and paper rules.
But in a broad sense, being that divine feat users are generally weaker than other melees because of feat starvation, low unbuffed AB, and reliance on limited use/day powers I think this character balances out. He's got exceptionally, exploitatively high saves but his other divine powers are just sorta there. He doesn't need them, they just give him a little extra punch that he'd likely use up in one fight per day - whereas his 42 AB and 7d6 sneak attacks are on all the time. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Aaah, a fallen paladin. I think it's rather interesting to RP this. It's interesting to say the least.
The fact that this an exploit is not the players fault. I'm guessing alot of people made a Pal/BG just for the RP part before they even knew about the 'exploit'.
Good Job Xylo
If someone wants to "RP a 'Fallen Paladin'" in NWN, why don't they just roll up a Fighter/Blackguard? Or play a Paladin up to the level at which they want to 'fall', then roll up a Fighter, use DebugMode to level up the Fallen Paladin, then transfer the gear over to the new character, and start taking Blackguard levels?
Now I must be the only old-fashioned one here, but it doesn't seem very RP-ish to play an Evil anti-paladin, yet still draw upon powers and bennies from the paladin's diety.
Come on - If you're going to abuse the game engine at least call it what it is, don't sugarcoat it and call it Role Playing.
<Xylo, I'll stop spamming your build thread. Such rants are better suited in the General Discussion forum.>
Kaliban.
The whole idea of something being an "exploit" is arbitrary and completely subjective. This is NWN, not PnP DnD. The fact of the matter is that the two are not 100% equivalent. Rules are there to define the reality of the gameworld. If you don't think they are fair, write new ones, if you happen to be the gamemaster. Everyone has their own idea of what is "fair" or "unfair".
Think about this. An Exalted Sorceress (Sorc38/Pal1/Monk1) is a perfectly legal PnP multiclass. But in a lot of ways it is unbalanced.
The paladin/blackguard is not really unbalanced except in regards to doubled charisma bonuses to saves.
Hrm, you forgot list those cheesy saving throws.
Though I'd write her a better story than the OC 
Yeah, the double up saves and keeping the smite evil, unchanged lay hands, sacred defense, and divine wrath is an exploit, that's not something I argued. My "no and yes" answer in the build faq is that no, I don't think the alignment change is bad, but I do think some of the divine powers, particularly the doubled charisma bonus to saves, is exploitative.