I made this build for my girlfriend who plays alot as well. This is my second post, if there is anything wrong feel free to tell me. I took the pros advise on some feats here and hope its up to par with you guys. I didnt take Still Spell cause you can just switch your armor before you buff. If I forgot anything please feel free to comment.
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 23/34 Full Plate: +8 AC Mage Armor: +1 AC Cat's Grace: +2 AC (Dex is 8, then 12 with Full Plate) Haste: +4 AC Divine Shield: +5 AC Expertise: +5 AC Bardic Song: +3 AC Cursed Song: -2 Hit for enemies Total AC (buffed, mudane armor): 53
No-one seems to care about HP. -1 AB, I know, but +1 AC and +80 HP. _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
Quote: Posted 11/04/05 01:04:26 (GMT) -- Jennalee
No-one seems to care about HP.
Are you talking to me? Are you talking to me? ARE YOU TALKING TO ME???
Quote: -1 AB, I know, but +1 AC and +80 HP.
I've proven, time and time again, that +1 AC and +80HP outweighs the benefit of not just 1AB, but even 2AB. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Are you talking to me? Are you talking to me? ARE YOU TALKING TO ME???
Eeeep! Sorry!
(*must not anger big, scary, non-good dwarf* *repeat mantra*)
Just seemed that everywhere on the general discussion boards, people like to start with 18 STR and gimp all other stats on a meleer. Even in a high magic server, where the char can easily get CON boosters, you'll suffer a bit but it just seems the popular thing to do (if on a high-magic server where you can easily get high AC, yet the monsters can't hit you so you don't need the HP or don't hit hard enough, I'd say that's poor balance).
Something to do with I got bigger muscles than you mentality? o_o _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
Edited By Jennalee on 11/04/05 01:59
Hrmm, you took 8 levels of BG pre epic. Shouldn't that give you a BAB of 27? I'm doped up on coffee right now so I can't really think straight...
Agree with Jen on the +1AC and 80HP being worth a -1AB.
And a at grizz
Quote: Posted 11/04/05 01:57:53 (GMT) -- Jennalee
Something to do with I got bigger muscles than you mentality?
You do? When did the memo on that come out? _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Taking Bard 5 and RDD 5, 6, and 7 Pre-Epic cost you BAB. You should keep them in groups of 4 pre-epic. ie hit 20 as Bard 4/RDD8/BG 8.
368 Hit points?That's great...
For a pansy 8 Constitution Elf wizard! But for a Blackguard? EMBARRASSING!
Nice idea though.
Kaliban. _________________ "It's a damned shame when people be throwing away a perfectly good white boy like that!"
You do need bard 5 to qualify for RDD (since it's using 2 prestige classes) and then 6 BAB as well as Cleave for blackguard (and 5 ranks in Hide). Bard 5 will give +3 BAB and RDD 4 will give +3, then you can start taking Blackguard (get martial too). The best BAB that could be achieved for this build is with a Bard 6/ RDD 4/ BG 10 or Bard 8/ RDD 4/ BG 8, getting 17 BAB pre-epic. _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
Something to do with I got bigger muscles than you mentality?
You do? When did the memo on that come out?
*sigh*
Maybe I should have bracketed it? I'm not one of you insensitive, smelly males so I'm not even going to contemplate trying to win that competition but with FR females...
And did you just spill a box of rouge on me? _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
lol, you guys are hilarious. thanks for the comments. more are always welcome. But ya the main point with this build is that you can achieve a pretty decent AC. i chose a low dex cause you already have cats grace and will only need a +1 AC bonus from dex anyways when wearing full plate. im not too sure what i mean about the +1 AC, i get the +80 Con, can u explain?
constitution, well you can always maybe grab some boots of striding +5 if your lucky. maybe a Con belt too. but ya its a pretty kick butt character with lots of fun behind its versitile classes.
oh and some of the reasons behind the lvling madness is required if i get RDD ASAP. ill be able to take advantage of getting 4 attacks by lvl 20 and then get the extra +2 INT for extra skill points.
i just know from experience on my server, you can grab some regeneration stuff and having a high AC will then allow you to balance out your HPs with regeneration kicking in. thats why i always want high AC over anything else. lol, i could have made you guys scream and put Improved Expertise in there
Edited By Bad213Boy on 11/04/05 03:55
Oh dear... I'd refine this build heavily. You're taking some feats that are of only marginal benefit and taking non-epic feats in epic levels to enhance your combat capabilities when you could make room for them earlier by dropping other feats.
Start with your base stats... for a character like this pushing your starting strength to 18 is a waste of points. You can free 6 base points by dropping it to 16 and could still end with the same strength by rearranging your feats.
So... try starting like this:
16 str 10 dex 14 con 8 wis 14 int 14 cha
Then in your feats:
At level 15 drop Divine Might and replace it with Improved Knockdown. At level 18 drop Divine Shield and replace it with Blind Fighting. At 27, take Great Strength. At 30, drop Extra Smiting and take Great Strength. At 33, drop Lingering Song and take Great Strength. Pick Improved Critical at 24 or Expertise at 36 to drop in favor of Great Strength.
Go 8 bard/4 RDD/8 BG to level 20 instead of 5 bard/7 RDD/8 BG. You'll have a better BAB then.
You'll probably end up with a more effective character over all. Smite good isn't that frequently useful, while divine might and divine shield are only netting you +3 damage and +3 AC for 3 rounds at a time, a limited number of times per day. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Oh dear... I'd refine this build heavily. You're taking some feats that are of only marginal benefit and taking non-epic feats in epic levels to enhance your combat capabilities when you could make room for them earlier by dropping other feats.
Start with your base stats... for a character like this pushing your starting strength to 18 is a waste of points. You can free 6 base points by dropping it to 16 and could still end with the same strength by rearranging your feats.
So... try starting like this:
16 str 10 dex 14 con 8 wis 14 int 14 cha
Then in your feats:
At level 15 drop Divine Might and replace it with Improved Knockdown. At level 18 drop Divine Shield and replace it with Blind Fighting. At 27, take Great Strength. At 30, drop Extra Smiting and take Great Strength. At 33, drop Lingering Song and take Great Strength. Pick Improved Critical at 24 or Expertise at 36 to drop in favor of Great Strength.
Go 8 bard/4 RDD/8 BG to level 20 instead of 5 bard/7 RDD/8 BG. You'll have a better BAB then.
You'll probably end up with a more effective character over all. Smite good isn't that frequently useful, while divine might and divine shield are only netting you +3 damage and +3 AC for 3 rounds at a time, a limited number of times per day.
ill work that out on the excel character builder i have at work. im not to sure the build you suggested to me will have any use with so many Great STR. you can always find items to increase your CHA and get extra buffs and extra rounds. even if its a buff of +5 AB and DMG, its still one feat instead of 2 STR to do +2 AB and +4 DMG. *scratches head* not sure why you would do that. i had a build that had a no lingering song and no extended spell feats, it got ripped bad for that. so thats why i decided to include it here. i now do believe having those last long will give you long lasting buffs you may need in any situations, but i could be wrong.
The Blind Feat i can see working really well here. especially if i use darkness and use the sneak attack alot.
This character would find its PvP against good aligned characters. it does have its use for this build i think. but ill just wait and see what others recommend as well.
Edited By Bad213Boy on 11/04/05 04:13
The issue is that divine feats really require a high Charisma, and if you're using gear to improve your charisma, you're not using it to boost your AC or something.
The extra strength I'm suggesting gives you the same effect to your damage as having divine might on in your build, but you have it all the time instead of a handful of times per day a few turns at a time.
Lingering song just extends your bard song duration by 5 rounds... are you sure the people suggesting a song feat didn't mean lasting inspiration?
Your smite in your original build is +3 AB and +16 damage three times a day. My modification to your build would yield +3 AB all the time, at the cost of 2 smite attempts per day. I think it's a good tradeoff.
Basically my point is that you want to either go with mor charisma to use charisma driven feats, or else go with less charisma driven feats. You can only get +12 to a stat from buffs and gear - your smite AB bonus would cap out at +9, your divine shield/might would cap out at +9. For limited use/day abilities, I especially don't think +9 damage is worth it to a strength heavy two-hander RDD character.
Shield is more worth it because you don't have a shield for your AC. Smite's rarely worth building around in practice, however good it might look in theory.
Blind fight isn't really 'optional' for epic melee characters. Too many people will have conceal bonuses for you to be able to afford not to take it. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
holly crap batman, you're genius. thanks for breaking it down for me. ya ur probably right with all that then. and thanks for spendin the time.
Wonder how good a reagent it'd make? _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
A teeny tiny thing. Move BG 8 until after RDD is done. It gives you RDD things one lvl earlier. It isn't much, but it costs absolutely nothing!
I played a Bard/RDD/BG on a PW(my charismatic Dwarf) in the old days, and believe me, Smite good with high CHA gives you an edge in melee combat that will win the day. You are a BG, you fight with all the tricks in the books!
But smite feats with low CHA? Nah, perhaps divine shield.
At lvl 40 I guarantee you this will be a char that can deal with most things, but just remember to fight as dirty and bad as you can. You are after all a Blackguard!
A teeny tiny thing. Move BG 8 until after RDD is done. It gives you RDD things one lvl earlier. It isn't much, but it costs absolutely nothing!
I played a Bard/RDD/BG on a PW(my charismatic Dwarf) in the old days, and believe me, Smite good with high CHA gives you an edge in melee combat that will win the day. You are a BG, you fight with all the tricks in the books!
But smite feats with low CHA? Nah, perhaps divine shield.
At lvl 40 I guarantee you this will be a char that can deal with most things, but just remember to fight as dirty and bad as you can. You are after all a Blackguard!
what do you think would be best in melee, im trying to get the best RDD out there. i love doing PvP and make events set up for PvP to happen. im playing a similar RDD with my gf and was wondering how to maximize my build better. im figuring it'll be be a group vs group thing. should i try to follow more of your dwarf build in sense of higher CHA or should i stick with the recomendations here?
another thing i had questions about is how come the need for such high CON? how did you guys come up with +80hps and and dex 10 would be better? is it that ill get an extra 2 hits against me? and what about toughness feat? would the need of that give me an extra blow to take as well?
if i were to make a STR based RDD would Fighter serve me better then BG? like what would be the one on one fight between your dwarf with high CHA and the STR Fighter RDD, who would rather have?
i need something that just ROCKS these players all the time. im usually playing evil characters so either or would work for me.
thanks for all your help guys.
Edited By Bad213Boy on 11/04/05 14:17
In 1 on 1, a smite build will win the day. If it is more group PvP, you have to start playing dirty. With a strength build you will do better in prolonged or group PvP,. Cast Ultravision and have that on at all times. Darkness is a vocal spell, and you have UMD to cast it from scrolls to. Be sure to have dispels ready to remove ultravision. Darkness protects you from being hit by target spells and ranged weapons. Dish out damage with sneak attacks. Try to stay close to casters, when they start casting, you get AoO and regular sneaks, might just interrupt them. divine might or shield is very useful with a CHA build.
Another point is to hit targets that don't attack you but your mates, once they switch to you, switch target yourself.
I often had Ultravision up when combat was about to engage, I checked their chars to see if they were immune to sneak or KD. If not, launch darkness, taunt your opponent and then knock him down or just slash away. If they were sneak or KD immune I gave them a healthy taste of smites. Your summons can be used to open your opponents for KD's. Once they turn away from you, just spam KD. That might even make your summon last a few moments to.
When you have this kind of char, you do have the opportunity to fight really dirty. Bard/BG give you some synergy. Improved invis, bard buffs and curse song. Darkness, KD you name it. Bard has the skill to turn the fight in your teams favor, and the one gaining the most from it will be yourself. Use your creative wickedness.
The most fun PvPs I have had with this kinda char. Just be aware that people will whine quite a lot after the fight is lost.
Heed the advice given to you here, and good luck. Expect major fun, whether you go CHA or STR.
Blackguard is one of my favorite classes, alongside ranger.
Quote: how did you guys come up with +80hps and and dex 10 would be better?
You lose 2 STR and gain 2 DEX and 4 CON at creation. That means you lose 1 ab and 1 damage, while you gain 1 AC and 80 hps. But the dex you can buff to 12, so actually you trade 1 ab and damge for 80 hp's. Your call. I would take 80 hp's.
Edited By Grimnir77 on 11/04/05 16:19
you mean i loose 1 AB and 2 DMG right, hehe.
hmm, but dont you think if im going STR based that i should use Fighter class instead of BG? and with this build here, would you scrap Extended Spell and Divine Shield in favor of more Great STR?
No. 1 AB and 1 damage. Even if your STR modifier is 1.5x on damage, 1 point is rounded down, not up.
Quote: hmm, but dont you think if im going STR based that i should use Fighter class instead of BG? and with this build here, would you scrap Extended Spell and Divine Shield in favor of more Great STR?
Why should STR-based mean FTR levels? BGs can benefit from STR as well. Add big STR damage to sneak attacks and you get some serious hurt. WHen you can't land sneaks, you'll still have the STR to rely on for damage output.
There's nothing wrong iwth FTR either, but going the STR route doesn't mean you have to take FTR levels.
As for Extend/Divine, that's more a matter of personal taste. There are some nice spells that would be good candidates for Extending and Divine Shield is handy to boost your AC if you don't use a shield. However, I'd only invest in DS if I knew I could get a decent CHA. As for Extend, take a look at your spell list of spells you'd actually use. See if there are enough shorter term spells to warrant taking the Extend feat. Personally I'd just go with Still Spell (it's nice to be able to cast Wounding Whispers and things like Haste, Improved Invis, Grease, Bestow Curse, etc while wearing armor). _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
at grizz 
