For my first attempt at a published build, I would like to introduce Verity Forester, my Halfling Sneak Attacker (and subsequent runner away and hider) extraordinaire... Created for a hack 'n' slash module. Not a PvPer myself, so not sure how she would go (average I am guessing).
Playable 1 - 40 PvM Please examine and criticise to your heart's content.
01: Rogue(1): Two-Weapon Fighting 02: Fighter(1): Weapon Finesse 03: Rogue(2): Dodge 04: Fighter(2): DEX+1, Ambidexterity 05: Rogue(3) 06: Fighter(3): Mobility 07: Rogue(4) 08: Shadowdancer(1): DEX+1 09: Shadowdancer(2): Knockdown 10: Rogue(5) 11: Fighter(4): Improved Knockdown 12: Rogue(6): DEX+1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 13: Rogue(7) 14: Fighter(5) 15: Rogue(8): Iron Will 16: Rogue(9): DEX+1 17: Fighter(6): Spring Attack 18: Rogue(10): Weapon Proficiency Exotic, Defensive Roll 19: Rogue(11) 20: Rogue(12): DEX+1 21: Rogue(13): Great Dexterity I, Improved Evasion 22: Rogue(14) 23: Rogue(15) 24: Fighter(7): DEX+1, Great Dexterity II 25: Rogue(16): Slippery Mind 26: Rogue(17) 27: Rogue(18): Great Dexterity III 28: Rogue(19): DEX+1, Epic Dodge 29: Fighter(8): Epic Prowess 30: Rogue(20): Great Dexterity IV 31: Rogue(21) 32: Rogue(22): DEX+1 33: Rogue(23): Self Concealment I 34: Fighter(9) 35: Rogue(24): Self Concealment II 36: Rogue(25): DEX+1, Self Concealment III 37: Rogue(26) 38: Rogue(27) 39: Fighter(10): Self Concealment IV, Armor Skin 40: Rogue(28): DEX+1, Self Concealment V
Design Notes: * Halfling is primarily a RP choice, plus I like her fearlessness and luckiness. Elf would work well too (but would suffer from XP penalty) as would human (extra feats and skill points are always good). * I have deliberately avoided weapn specific feats, hoping to have the ability to pick up the very best magical weapons available, and use them to hit for her +14d6 sneak attack, rather than get the odd crit! I am picturing dual-wielding daggers or kukris or using darts or shuriken for missile attacks, but any finessable weapon would work well. (Took Epic Prowess to bump AB up for all weapons instead) * I will admit to being a HIPS-abuser. Verity is a firm believer in the better part of valour. Feats in general have been taken to avoid being hit when she is found in the wrong place at the wrong time. KD and IKD have been taken despite the small size of this sneak attacker to increase the number of sneak attacks hitting home. Given that she probably won't be trying to KD a dragon, she can probably get away with her small size. Avoid this problem by choosing human. Note though: I did take 2 levels of SD (I like darkvision!), so I am not completely abusing the prestige class for one feat! * Took 6 pre-epic fighter levels to reach 4 attacks per round, and spread the other 4 levels through epic to keep discipline as a class skill and maxed out.
Pros: * 14d6 sneak attacks * Great skill levels. I chose 16 INT for this very reason. * Self Concealment V and Epic Dodge. Just try to hit back! * Ridiculously high dex means more finessed hits, lower AC (which can be kept most of the time thanks to Uncanny Dodge and high discipline), super reflex saves.
Cons: * Low hitpoints (324) but with HIPS, SCV, Epic and Uncanny Dodge, this shouldn't matter. * Fort and will saves suck. Slippery Mind helps though. Will look for magic to help here. * True seers would mess up her escape plans a bit, but dodges and self concealment could help the getaway.
Here is my skill progression. Discipline is to avoid knockdowns and being kept flat on her back taking hits on her precious few hit points. Hide and MS maxed for obvious reasons. Search, Spot, Listen for scouting duties (if only the rest of the party would stop walking into traps anyway - I suppose they don't want to wait for a halfling moving at 50% in stealth and search modes at the same time). Disable traps for self-preservation. UMD for fun. Lower open locks because she couldn't bash her way out of a wet paper bag. Tumble for escapes. Set traps, Lore, Heal etc - all good skills but lower priority and even an INT 16 rogue has limited skill points.
01: Rogue(1): Two-Weapon Fighting 02: Fighter(1): Weapon Finesse 03: Rogue(2): Dodge 04: Fighter(2): DEX+1, Ambidexterity 05: Rogue(3) 06: Fighter(3): Mobility 07: Rogue(4) 08: Shadowdancer(1): DEX+1 09: Shadowdancer(2): Knockdown 10: Rogue(5) 11: Fighter(4): Improved Knockdown 12: Rogue(6): DEX+1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 13: Rogue(7) 14: Fighter(5) 15: Rogue(8): Iron Will 16: Rogue(9): DEX+1 17: Fighter(6): Spring Attack 18: Rogue(10): Weapon Proficiency Exotic, Defensive Roll 19: Rogue(11) 20: Rogue(12): DEX+1 21: Rogue(13): Great Dexterity I, Improved Evasion 22: Rogue(14) 23: Rogue(15) 24: Fighter(7): DEX+1, Great Dexterity II 25: Rogue(16): Slippery Mind 26: Rogue(17) 27: Rogue(18): Great Dexterity III 28: Rogue(19): DEX+1, Epic Dodge 29: Fighter(8): Epic Prowess 30: Rogue(20): Great Dexterity IV 31: Rogue(21) 32: Rogue(22): DEX+1 33: Rogue(23): Self Concealment I 34: Fighter(9) 35: Rogue(24): Self Concealment II 36: Rogue(25): DEX+1, Self Concealment III 37: Rogue(26) 38: Rogue(27) 39: Fighter(10): Self Concealment IV, Armor Skin 40: Rogue(28): DEX+1, Self Concealment V
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only thing i would recommmend changing is to get rid of spring attack, and mobility. by rearranging the feats, you could get strong soul or luck of heroes, along with another saves improving feat like iron will. this would boost your saves nicely. spring attack, especially for a dex character with tumble ranks, is pointless. you will make your tumble check, especially by the time you get spring attack at level 17.
other than that, looks liks a solid halfling stealth warrior. some may want to take WF and EWF to boost AB by 3, but as you said, this makes the option more open. the AB isn't bad for a rogue. low for a pure fighter, but highish for a pure rogue.
-c _________________ "Perception is strong and sight weak. In strategy it is important to see distant things as if they were close and to take a distanced view of close things." - Miyamoto Musashi
I am sure this build has been almost exactly done before. That said, why SD 2? I really don't see the use of it? Another rogue level won't give you much, but it will give you something.
Your BAB is 26 + 11 dex + 1 epic prowess=38, 36 dualwielding. Why is it higher with ranged, I don't get it?
As for wanting the choice instead of WF, EWF remember that you will not lose ab with other weapons. I think you should take it. It is a good, fun build, though, I have played something like it myself.
Nice rogue. Here are my two coppers. Some say I'm mad so take with a grain of salt:
I'd really push for Weapon Spec and Epic Weapon Spec in a dex-based dual-wielder.
Mobility is of course needed for Shadow Dancer so can't be dropped.
As noted, drop Spring Attack for Weapon Focus. I'd drop Iron Will for Wpn Spec.
Then I'd drop Epic Prowess and Armor Skin for Epic Wpn Focus and Epic Wpn Spec.
With Epic Dodge and SC 5, I'd say Armor Skin isn't necessary.
If you could rearrange your starting stats to raise Dex by 1 or 2 points I think that would help in the long haul to attain SC 5 and maybe free up some Epic Feats. In theory, you could drop Int to 14 and maybe drop Wis to 8.
Nice job all in all.
Kaliban. _________________ Intelligent design is neither. Science over superstition please.
Edited By Kaliban99 on 11/15/05 19:24
Thanks all for tips and helps...
christian.schnabel: "only thing i would recommmend changing is to get rid of spring attack, and mobility. by rearranging the feats, you could get strong soul or luck of heroes, along with another saves improving feat like iron will. this would boost your saves nicely. spring attack, especially for a dex character with tumble ranks, is pointless. you will make your tumble check, especially by the time you get spring attack at level 17."
Mobility needed for SD. Point taken on Spring Attack though, certainly a waste of time. Already have iron will (level 15).
Grimnir77 : "I am sure this build has been almost exactly done before."
Give me a break...this is my first posted build. It also happens to be one I am using, which is why I started with it. I will look harder next time though, I promise. As it happens, I am working on a couple of builds that probably haven't been done before, but we will wait and see...
"That said, why SD 2? I really don't see the use of it? Another rogue level won't give you much, but it will give you something."
Reason 1: Darkvision. Not a very good reason, but I like Darkvision.
Reason 2: I didn't want to seem like a complete munchkin who only chose SD for HIPS. Ok, you and I know I am a complete etc, but I can try.
Yes, 1 more rogue would give me an extra d6 sneak. 1 more SD could have worked, but I would have lost a rogue feat. This was my compromise. Point taken though, extra rogue would be a bit better, but I'm happy here...
"Your BAB is 26 + 11 dex + 1 epic prowess=38, 36 dualwielding. Why is it higher with ranged, I don't get it?"
Halflings get +1 to thrown weapons. Note it is "best" AB.
"As for wanting the choice instead of WF, EWF remember that you will not lose ab with other weapons. I think you should take it."
Of course, but I will lose other feats...
Kaliban99 : "I'd really push for Weapon Spec and Epic Weapon Spec in a dex-based dual-wielder."
I have to ask why? It would be cool, but would commit me to particular weapon(s) which is a bit out of concept for this character. And for extra damage? If she is played right, the extra points from spec aren't really going to make much difference to a sneak attack. No sneak attack possible? Run away.
"As noted, drop Spring Attack for Weapon Focus. I'd drop Iron Will for Wpn Spec. Then I'd drop Epic Prowess and Armor Skin for Epic Wpn Focus and Epic Wpn Spec. With Epic Dodge and SC 5, I'd say Armor Skin isn't necessary."
OK, dropping Spring Attack. Iron Will? Don't really want to! Armour Skin, yes you are right. Epic Prowess is my compromise to _not_ taking weapon-focus feats and the like.
Compromise: If this was a being used PVP, yes, I would definitely take weapon focus and spec skills. I would perhaps keep Iron Will and drop WP Exotic and take the weapon skills in dagger. If just PVM, I would tend to go my way. Perhaps take weapon focus and spec using the feats from Spring Attack and Armour Skin.
"If you could rearrange your starting stats to raise Dex by 1 or 2 points I think that would help in the long haul to attain SC 5 and maybe free up some Epic Feats. In theory, you could drop Int to 14 and maybe drop Wis to 8."
I don't know that it would be worth it. I get SCV anyway, and it is a skills build. I want the extra +1 on INT. Wis 8? Aren't my will saves low enough for you?
"Nice job all in all."
Thanks, I appreciate that, and all the feedback. Given that I have no burn-marks from this post, I will be back for more soon...
Shayne
Why WS/ES? Because Wpn Spec and EWS are great for Dex-Based rogues that are facing sneak-immune/crit-immune critters. If running away is how you like to face those encounters, then your build is all set But I prefer to be able to dish out that extra damage especially when dual-wielding (since WS/EWS take effect on each hit with the weapon of choice). That's a possible +6 damage up to 6 or 7 times per round. If you can't HIPS and run away then having WS/EWS helps out when cornered.
If you have RP visions for this build that restrict it's optimization "...would commit me to a particular weapon(s) which is a bit out of concept for this character...", then it's good you've stated that.
Same goes for the high Int. You want it, that's fine. As for "I get SC5 anyway" yes, but so very late in the build. If you started with a higher Dex you could fit in SC5 a bit earlier in the life of the build.
Iron Will and low Wisdom - Yes, Will saves are a problem but in many environments magical gear is available to mitigate this. I myself usually opt to take the 2 stat points from Wis 10 and put them in Str, Dex, Int or Con and suck up the -1 to Will saves and/or rely on magical gear or scrolls.
As for Grim's comment that 'this build has been done before', I ran this build through pulse cap's Build Searcher and only found these similar builds:
Results from pulse cap's build searcher: Kukri’s Sting /Rogue 29/Fighter 10/SD 1 by darkfire_arrow01 Warden of Shadows /Rogue 31/Fighter 8/SD 1 by Nirrudn Sneaky Sniper /Rogue 29/Fighter 10/Shadowdancer 1 by pulse cap
Kaliban. _________________ Intelligent design is neither. Science over superstition please.
Nice build. Two things I would change though:
- as already mentioned Spring Attack is useless. Problem is what feat to take instead since you don't want to focus on a weapon. Perhaps Called Shot is a good idea.
- INT 16 is too expensive. I would take WIS 12 and CHA 10 (I just don't like to see a '8' on the char sheet ). The +1 to will saves would make slippery mind even more useful. _________________ Character Build Calculator(works with Excel, Open Office) 2.83: updated to NWN 1.69.
Why WS/ES? Because Wpn Spec and EWS are great for Dex-Based rogues that are facing sneak-immune/crit-immune critters. If running away is how you like to face those encounters, then your build is all set But I prefer to be able to dish out that extra damage especially when dual-wielding (since WS/EWS take effect on each hit with the weapon of choice). That's a possible +6 damage up to 6 or 7 times per round. If you can't HIPS and run away then having WS/EWS helps out when cornered.
You are right of course. I'm not sure that the cost in other feats that you suggested is necessarily worth it, but I will take it under advisement.
Quote: Same goes for the high Int. You want it, that's fine. As for "I get SC5 anyway" yes, but so very late in the build. If you started with a higher Dex you could fit in SC5 a bit earlier in the life of the build.
The skills that I have chosen are important. Dropping INT, while it would give me some useful stat points, what skills would I lose? In my way of balancing it, having the skills up the whole lot of levels is more important than earlier SC. But I could be wrong (it happened once before!)
Quote: Iron Will and low Wisdom - Yes, Will saves are a problem but in many environments magical gear is available to mitigate this. I myself usually opt to take the 2 stat points from Wis 10 and put them in Str, Dex, Int or Con and suck up the -1 to Will saves and/or rely on magical gear or scrolls. Kaliban.
I suppose one less on Will saves won't make that much difference
Quote: Posted 11/16/05 22:17:36 (GMT) -- Kamiryn - INT 16 is too expensive. I would take WIS 12 and CHA 10 (I just don't like to see a '8' on the char sheet ). The +1 to will saves would make slippery mind even more useful.
See above. Costs too much, but I'm happy to pay it!
). The +1 to will saves would make slippery mind even more useful.
But I prefer to be able to dish out that extra damage especially when dual-wielding (since WS/EWS take effect on each hit with the weapon of choice). That's a possible +6 damage up to 6 or 7 times per round. If you can't HIPS and run away then having WS/EWS helps out when cornered.