This is a thought experiment that proves I'm crazy. It came about as combination of separate attempts to make a Spellsword that can be good in combat with a lot of WIZ levels and a melee mage. One thing led to another, and suddenly I found myself building with no warrior classes at all. It's probably one of the cheesier builds I've made (due to the level 40 skill dump and the recommended tactics of cheese spells), but it doesn't rely solely on the cheese factor.
Wizard 29/Cleric 10/Bard 1
Playable 1 to 40, PvM.
Low magic environment is probably ideal, but I think he could easily be played in a high magic environment as well.
Human, any non-Lawful alignment
STR 14 (22) DEX 10 CON 14 INT 16 (20) WIS 14 (15) CHA 8
21)WIZ11: EWF 22)WIZ12 23)WIZ13 24)WIZ14: GRT STR I (17)/ STR (18) 25)WIZ15: GRT INT I (19) 26)WIZ16 27)WIZ17: Autostill I 28)WIZ18: STR (19) 29)WIZ19 30)WIZ20: Autostill II/ Autostill III 31)WIZ21 32)WIZ22: STR (20) 33)WIZ23: Epic Mage Armor/ Epic Warding 34)WIZ24 35)WIZ25 36)WIZ26: Epic Prowess/ Improved Combat Casting/ STR (21) 37)WIZ27 38)WIZ28 39)WIZ29: Armor Skin/ GRT INT II (20) 40)Bard1: STR (22)
Cleric Domains: Strength and whatever else you like. (You'll be using most of your level 3, 4 and 5 slots for Divine Power)
unbuffed AB, +26/+21/+16.
Here's the AB when buffed with Divine Power and assuming +12 STR boost: +46/+41/+36/+41 The maximum possible AB with this character is +52/+47/+42/+52. Hasted and maxed out, his attack schedule is:
+52/+47/+42/+52/+52
He can buff with Flame Weapon, Darkfire (I believe they stack), various Cleric spells for AB and damage boosts, Keen Edge, GMW, etc.
His spell DCs suck, but he has the caster levels to punch through all default SR and can soften up enemies with no-save spells before buffing with DP to finish them with melee (and even some of the save-allowing spells can deal some softening damage). He has reciprocal damage spells, spell mantles/globes, debuffing capability, etc.
The autostills allow him to wear armor and shield with no worries.
ICC late in the build is a bonus, as at that point you may need to worry about being hit, even with your shields up (assuming you don't have EW active) due to HP concerns.
HPs are the biggest concern, as his maximum unbuffed HPs is 362.
These can all be augmented with the various spells to which he has access as well as by items and boosts to Spellcraft.
I tested this as a fully realized level 40 build in the Novice to Epic. With a mundane battleaxe, mundane shield, and mundane plate, he could buff himself from a naked AC of 20 to an AC of 60 and he took out the FTR, Mage, Cleric, Rogue, and a Dracolich (all as separate battles) without resting. At the end, he was down to Badly Wounded. And, I never used the cheese spell tactics (Timestop, Bigby's, IGMS), except one ILMS to finish off the Rogue, and I activated Epic Warding part way through the battle with the Dracolich. Currently, I'm running it from level one and have found it reasonably easy to level and survive.
Drawbacks: Oh yes, of course there are drawbacks.
He has low HPs and bad DC for a character with so many WIZ levels.
He smells of cheese.
He can be dispelled at lower levels, which will leave him in a very untenable position. This has happened to me already during my play from level 1 up (at about level 8 when this happened). Surprisingly, he could still hold his own reasonably well, and with the quick application of a couple buff potions along with a recast of a spell or two, and he was good to go.
Bad Reflex save and low Fort save. (However, as noted, they can be augmented relatively easily).
If you play this build, people may think you're nuts!
***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ** griphook ..Added naked AC & Unbuffed AB _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Edited By griphook on 11/27/05 16:29
Quote: Posted 11/27/05 07:37:03 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
He smells of cheese.
Nice one Cinn. Don't think I've seen this build before Very creative.
Kaliban. _________________ Intelligent design is neither. Science over superstition please.
You lack a few naked stats.
If you take Healing as a domain, you will access the heal spell, and stronger healing magic at lower levels. Not bad to have WIZ 29 that is so capable of melee.
Innovative build, and very cool.
Good job.
Thanks guys.
Grimnir: the only stats I can think of that I didn't list are naked AC which is 20 and unbuffed AB, which is +26/+21/+16. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
I've found characters like this to be surprisingly effective since I started playing with the sorcerer/cleric build I was inspired to create by a discussion on the general forums. Combining an arcane caster with cleric gives you a lot of flexibility, sometimes in surprising ways.
The major drawback to meleeing with this sort of a build, I've found, is that your most important melee offense buff (divine power) is easily dispelled at any level.
I'm not sure bard is a particularly better (or worse) choice than monk for your cheese skill dump level. You can use divine and arcane scrolls and wands already because you're a wizard and a cleric both... that takes a lot of the empashsis off UMD in my opinion. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
True enough on the Monk, Xylo, but I hate Monks and refuse to use even a sngle level in any build. Also, 1 Bard gives you a Bard Song boost that will add a nice cheese-flavored +1 to AB and damage and is basically undispellable.
As to dipelling the DP buff, that's a very good point. However, you have enough of them in your Cleric slots to recast it immediately. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Hehe I thought since you were already going for broke on the cheeseness, you might consider the ultimate 1-level cheese. I don't think bard's a bad choice either - in fact if monk didn't get you Evasion at level 1, there'd be no argument in favor of taking it in this build at all.
Put 43 of your leftover skillpoints towards Taunt, though, and I think bard wins out.
One thing I really like about how your build turned out is that you don't suffer from feat starvation. The wizard's extra feats beat the sorcerer class with a stick for multi-classing like this: you don't really get much extra, but you do get everything you need.
Finally, weapon wasn't really discussed, but I'll put my vote in for using a scimitar. Base damage dice are kind of irrelevant, but the scimitar can be keen edge'd and has good critical stats. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Quote: Posted 11/27/05 07:37:03 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
This is a thought experiment that proves I'm crazy.
...
three cheers for insanity!
interesting. i don't see how the melee can work, but i will take in on faith that it does. kinda like that arcane blades of torm by stravinsky, where the wiz is a melee build. but without warrior levels...
yeah, you are crazy. but good crazy.
-c _________________ "You cannot pass!"
Quote: Posted 11/28/05 05:05:39 (GMT) -- christian.schnabel i don't see how the melee can work, -c
Yes, I thought that as well, but the more I looked at it, the more I could see it. I had a glance at some of his trial runs and they were quite impressive.
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
The melee's simple: you buff yourself with long-term buffs immediately after resting (Bull's STR, Cat's Grace, Improved Invis, etc). When it comes time to get into it during melee, you just hit Divine Power (and any other short-term buffs you need) and suddenly you have the attack schedule and BAB of a FTR of the equivalent level. At character level 16 and beyond, this means an extra attack at full AB. (Actually, at levels 16 and 17, your BAB is only +10, so you actually end up with two extra attacks at full AB for those two levels frmo Divine Power)
You get Divine Power at character level 9 (CLC level 5), so from then on, you're basically a full-fledged FTR.
At low levels, I find a WIZ easy to level as a meleer. Level one and level 2 you'll rely on your familiar, but after that, you should be able to solo and survive just with your WIZ buffs. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Cinn,
I was wondering how this build is working out for you on your PW in the time since you posted the build.
Also, I'm curious how melee is going and what you do for AC. Are you casting long-term wizard buffs in your skivvies and then donning plate before breaking camp? And then casting Divine Power as you wade into battle?
Thanks, Kaliban
PS - Happy New Year! PPS - I seem to find that my wizard familars are cowards and frequently run from battle, even at level 1 and 2. Tinkie Winkie the Fire Mephit kept getting toasted in Witch's Wake :/ _________________ Intelligent design is neither. Science over superstition please.
I was wondering how this build is working out for you on your PW in the time since you posted the build.
It's working quite well, although I have to confess I've sort of abandoned her in favor of some other builds I'm testing and also for some SP mods I'm playing.
Quote: Also, I'm curious how melee is going and what you do for AC. Are you casting long-term wizard buffs in your skivvies and then donning plate before breaking camp? And then casting Divine Power as you wade into battle?
Yep, pretty much like that. I use the short term buffs as Stilled spells. The rest is the striptease dance. The melee has been pretty solid. She tears through pretty much anything she encounters. I've taken her to level 22 so far and the only rough patch was in the late single digit levels to the early teens (that's where you're low level WIZ and low level CLC). But even then, she was able to solo areas 2 or 3 levels sooner than most other characters I've plated there.
Granted, knowing the mod I'm playing on is skewing things in my favor, but still she's been as effective or more so than other characters I played (and I knew the mod with them as well).
Quote: Thanks, Kaliban
PS - Happy New Year!
And to you as well! Or, as they say on the high seas... Happy New Yarrr!!!
Quote: PPS - I seem to find that my wizard familars are cowards and frequently run from battle, even at level 1 and 2. Tinkie Winkie the Fire Mephit kept getting toasted in Witch's Wake :/
Bah! Threaten to drown the buggers! _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
=) _________________ Intelligent design is neither. Science over superstition please.
