Introduction: "Stalkers serve as covert intelligence gatherers, comfortable in both wilderness and urban settings. They are the spies, informants, and interrogators, and their mastery of stealth makes them deadly opponents." ~ the description for the Stalker kit in this game... Baldur's Gate II, ever heard?
Stalkers were (are) cool in BG2, and I wanted to try and get that Stalker feeling to NWN. In BG2 you got only 3 spells but I didn't want to limit my build to that The original Stalker kit was unable to wear any armor heavier than Studded Leather but this guy can wear Hide Armor without losing his Ranger abilities. Note, however, that Arcane Spell Failure does apply while wearing armor/shield. The BG2 backstab system was, as most of you probably know, different, using multipliers. You could reach x3 multiplier with a Stalker character - this build gets 5d6 sneaks, which is nice. As a Stalker you would get a 20% bonus to your stealth skills, but this I chose not to try and bring to the build. I decided to go for Initiative instead (could've gone for ESF: stealth skills) so you strike shiftly from the shadows
Playable 1 - 40 PvM
Race: Human
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral (any alignment will do fine, really)
1. Rogue1 - Knockdown/Blind-Fight 2. Rogue2 3. Ranger1 - Weapon Focus * FE (Dual-Wield) 4. Ranger2 5. Wizard1 6. Wizard2 - Extend Spell 7. Rogue3 8. Ranger3 9. Wizard3 - Improved Initiative 10. Wizard4 11. Ranger4 12. Rogue4 - Improved Knockdown 13. Ranger5 * FE 14. Ranger6 15. Ranger7 - Iron Will 16. Ranger8 17. Ranger9 (ITWF) 18. Rogue5 - Toughness 19. Rogue6 / XP penalty... 20. Rogue7 21. Wizard5 - Epic Weapon Focus * GI / ...is no more! 22. Wizard6 23. Wizard7 24. Ranger10 - Superior Initiative * FE 25. Ranger11 26. Ranger12 27. Rogue8 - Great Strength I 28. Wizard8 29. Wizard9 30. Rogue9 - Great Strength II 31. Ranger13 32. Ranger14 33. Ranger15 - Great Strength III * FE 34. Ranger16 35. Ranger17 36. Ranger18 - Great Strength IV 37. Ranger19 38. Ranger20 * FE 39. Ranger21 - BoE 40. Rogue10 * Crippling Strike
NOTE: no Epic Prowess nor Armor Skin. Easy enough to include if wanted, however, over two Great Strengths. +2 AC for one point less damage on both hands. Choice depends on the environment, I guess.
Crippling Strike is in no way a must, but I just love it too much. Evasion is nice by itself, and you can't possibly survive a fight with an Evoker anyhow so why bother with Improved Evasion
An alternative level up sequence would be to shoot up your Ranger levels straight from 1 to 21 picking BoE at 21. I, however, decided to go with a more balanced leveling model. The build should be fun to play gound up.
Distribution ------------ Rogue 10/Ranger 21/Wizard 9
Statistics:
AB -- 26 Base +10 Strength +3 Epic Weapon Focus -2 Dual-Wield -- 37
+2 vs FEs
well, it's not too impressing but if you're really after high AB, get more Ranger levels pre-epic. meh
Damage ------ 1-6 +10 -- 11-16 main hand
1-6 +5 -- 6-11 off hand
+2d6 +5 vs FEs
AC -- 10 Base +2 Dexterity +8 Tumble +3 Hide Armor -- 23
alot of points to play with, that's just what I prefer when playing.
finally, I'll try to find the highlights of this build: - good Strength score - five favoured enemies - BoE - 5d6 sneak attacks - decent stealth skills - good chance of attacking first with +10 initiative - IKD - flexibility with skills - traps - Arcane spells up to fifth level - decent damage dual-wielding - it's a Ranger!
on the other end, your AC is low (can switch to a shield, however) and your saving throws aren't too impressive. Fortunately you've got Spellcraft as a class skill, since most saves are done - according to my personal experience - against saves.
Had fun with this one, hope you like it.
Thank you.
EDIT: some of you are probably wondering the lack of Ranger spells. Well, that would have eaten too many attribute points for little gain, in my opinion.
EDIT2: am I on track with the XP penalty issue? Sometimes have trouble following how my levels go _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
Edited By griphook on 11/28/05 17:37
Dang! Forgot to add that he's playable from level one to fourty, PvM. _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
Nice build Finn!
I might follow your advice and take 21 lvls ranger straight away to maximise AB... it would probably cost some points in the saves, which are already low enough IMO. By the way, why such a low UMD and why not taking WIZ 9 in the final lvls of your career to maximise spellcraft for a bump in the saves (very needed IMO)?
Crippling strike vs improved evasion...mmm... I'd go for improved evasion with such low saves, but that's just personal preference. Crippling strike is a really cool feat
One question: how fundamental are the initiative feats in your build? Would you give 'em up easily to fetch something else or not?
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vincerò Vincerò Vincerò
Quote: Kail Pendragon Nice build Finn!
Thanks mate
Quote: Kail Pendragon I might follow your advice and take 21 lvls ranger straight away to maximise AB... it would probably cost some points in the saves, which are already low enough IMO. By the way, why such a low UMD and why not taking WIZ 9 in the final lvls of your career to maximise spellcraft for a bump in the saves (very needed IMO)?
The UMD allows me to use a specific item in a specific mod With 354 you have alot of skill points you can distribute, I just posted what I was using. As for the Wizard level and Spellcraft, I was too busy training my Rogue skills Try this: 29. Rogue9 30. Ranger13- Great Strength II 31. Ranger14 32. Ranger15 33. Ranger16 - Great Strength III * FE 34. Ranger17 35. Ranger18 36. Ranger19 - Great Strength IV 37. Wizard9 38. Ranger20 * FE 39. Ranger21 - BoE 40. Rogue10 * Crippling Strike
Quote: Kail Pendragon Crippling strike vs improved evasion...mmm... I'd go for improved evasion with such low saves, but that's just personal preference. Crippling strike is a really cool feat
Sure is! Again, each to his own. Someone might pick Slippery Mind
Quote: Kail Pendragon One question: how fundamental are the initiative feats in your build? Would you give 'em up easily to fetch something else or not?
They're not that fundamental, but it's nice to get the upper hand by attacking first
What would you replace them with? Saving throw bonuses? _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
I would replace superior Initiative with Epic prowess or armor skin. Improved initiative would have to yield to IC, or a save improver perhaps. It seems to me that even if you win initiative and even kill your opponent first blow, they get an attack right back. This is just an impression, not something I have tested, so don't trust it.
You seem to like rangers, just like me. Seems to me this build could afford to spread Rogue levels more, thus needing fewer. Ranger26/Wizard9/Rogue5 is what I would cut it. I always end up on 26 with my rangers though.
It's a nice character, and quite true to the stalker, even though BG 2 is way in the past for me. Good build. And I would think it is fun to play, which counts very much.
Quote: I would replace superior Initiative with Epic prowess or armor skin. Improved initiative would have to yield to IC, or a save improver perhaps. It seems to me that even if you win initiative and even kill your opponent first blow, they get an attack right back. This is just an impression, not something I have tested, so don't trust it.
Well ok, I have no idea how initiative actually works in NWN but in the >>real WORLD<< initiative determines who gets to attack and when for the whole battle - there's only one check and the highest gets to attack first every round. Thus, the slow ones get eaten first. (That's how I'd recall it working, at least Feel free to burst my bubble )
Quote: You seem to like rangers, just like me. Seems to me this build could afford to spread Rogue levels more, thus needing fewer. Ranger26/Wizard9/Rogue5 is what I would cut it. I always end up on 26 with my rangers though.
Rangers are cool, indeed (I must be getting tired, typed [ranger] right there trying to quote you), but Ranger 26 is just too much You'd lose 2 sneak dice AND Crippling Strike (or whatever). I'm not convinced.
Quote: It's a nice character, and quite true to the stalker, even though BG 2 is way in the past for me.
Thanks ...BG2 never grows old Just start up a new game at it'll consume you once again.
Quote: Good build. And I would think it is fun to play, which counts very much.
Thanks again _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
I am glad that a lot of people still like to play a good ranger. Warms my heart, it does. Now then, to the build...
I would recommend dropping some rogue levels and increasing the ranger levels. The best reason for losing the sneak die is the gain in how much earlier you could get BoE, and you would get possibly 3 more FEs. that is not something that i think should be lightly considered. also in my version in my head, i would only take 4 rogue levels pre-epic to preserve a bit of AB. not much can be done about the wizard part though. delaying any more wizard just leaves you empty for spells in pre-epic.
on a side note, what spells would you see as being most beneficial to this build. i know what ranger spells would work, but what wizard spells would be of the most value?
I am wondering how you make the best use of Hide Armour with a dex of 14 and no empower spell feat. i assume you hope for a good roll or something? or just some dex boosting equipment? i just thought that with a wizard multiclass one might want to consider a metamagic feat or two, although it is far from necessary (and probably only of marginal usefullness).
i have never played BG2 (gasp!) but i will have to look into it. i like this idea of the stalker. if i canthink of something good, i might make my own stalker-type build.
since AC isn't great, i thikn that Epic prowess and Armour Skin have a very good counter argument to the GS's. also, by leaving rogue at 4 in pre-epic you don't lower the ab. a similar argument can be made for picking up great con instead of great str. but that's just me liking me rangers with a little more heft. also gives a little boost to fort save.
also, i think that the version with a wiz level towards the end is worth it. it helps to boost saves, and its easy to implement.
i like the idea behind this build, but without seeing what wizard brings to the build i can't help but see what it takes away: Ranger spells, ranger levels = FEs and earlier BoE, More Rogue. UMD doesn't seem to be very important since a single wiz level automatically qualifies you to read any scroll. i dunno. i just know that i have tried ranger/wizards before, and the result was poor. maybe i just went about it wrong.
also, as a suggestion, you could take assassin instead of rogue to help with XP penalty. represents the darker side of the stalkers' life, perhaps?
well, as with anything i say, take it with a grain of salt. except the following: Rangers rock.
Well done.
-c _________________ “If you bring a Ranger with you, it is well to pay attention to him...”
Quote: They're not that fundamental, but it's nice to get the upper hand by attacking first
What would you replace them with? Saving throw bonuses?
Impr. initiative I'd replace with empower spell or maybe called shot. In epic I would (as you indicated) substitute two great STRs for EP and AS (loosing just 1 DAM...IMO EP+AS are always a better choice over 2 Gr.STRs) and a save booster instead of Sup. init. (epic reflexes or epic will). I'd definitely take a wizzy lvl near the end to max out spellcraft and that is easily done. Just smallish tweaks, the build is already a solid one... and I'm not saying the initiative feats are not useful either, it's just that I don't have a measure about how much useful they are. That's why I asked how fundamental they were
I would not drop rogue lvls: imp.evasion or crippl.strike are awesome feats... when building with rogue I tend to take at least 10 lvls of it. And those sneaks are so sweet
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vincerò Vincerò Vincerò
UMD doesn't seem to be very important since a single wiz level automatically qualifies you to read any scroll.
It should allow you to read just arcane scrolls, divine ones are off limits. Not to talk about other class/race restricted items. I'd pump it up, personally.
also, as a suggestion, you could take assassin instead of rogue to help with XP penalty. represents the darker side of the stalkers' life, perhaps?
Assassin sounds cool, but on the field rogue outshines the assassins when taking just a few levels, IMHO. I see the merits of assassin over rogue when taking a lot of lvls, otherwise not.
Cheers
Good morning everyone
Quote: christian.schnabel I would recommend dropping some rogue levels and increasing the ranger levels. The best reason for losing the sneak die is the gain in how much earlier you could get BoE, and you would get possibly 3 more FEs.
Like Kail stated, you would lose that Rogue bonus feat... and this system where we get tens of FEs is just confusing! In BG2, you picked just one racial enemy - hence, you should be grateful for having five in this here build
Quote: christian.schnabel that is not something that i think should be lightly considered. also in my version in my head, i would only take 4 rogue levels pre-epic to preserve a bit of AB. not much can be done about the wizard part though. delaying any more wizard just leaves you empty for spells in pre-epic.
Sure, it's possible to go with a different level spread in pre-epic, but I did what I did to get a more balanced entity who looked like himself in pre-epic too. Many builds tend to go like say Fighter 10/CoT 10 pre-epic and then shoot up 20 Rogue in epic. While this is by all means playable and receives high BAB than a version which takes Rogue in pre-epic, it's - in my opinion - less fun to play. But yeah, you were thinking... Ranger 12/Rogue 4/Wizard 4 in pre-epic for 27 BAB? Ranger 14/Rogue 4/Wizard 2 for 28 BAB?
Quote: christian.schnabel on a side note, what spells would you see as being most beneficial to this build. i know what ranger spells would work, but what wizard spells would be of the most value?
Ah, the spells. Haste, Stoneskin, Lesser Spell Mantle, Lesser Mind Blank, Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, Endurance, Darkness, Ultravision, True Strike, Keen Edge, (Improved) Invisibility, Identify, Protection from Alignment, Mage Armor, Lesser Spell Breach for other spellswords and Bigby's Interposing Hand if they don't have SR come to mind ;D
Quote: christian.schnabel i have never played BG2 (gasp!) but i will have to look into it. i like this idea of the stalker. if i canthink of something good, i might make my own stalker-type build.
You have to buy BG2 this instant! Check here for the BG2 classes and subclasses: Click Here
Quote: christian.schnabel since AC isn't great, i thikn that Epic prowess and Armour Skin have a very good counter argument to the GS's. also, by leaving rogue at 4 in pre-epic you don't lower the ab. a similar argument can be made for picking up great con instead of great str. but that's just me liking me rangers with a little more heft. also gives a little boost to fort save.
Yeah, I thought about that too. Now, after a good night's sleep, I might even drop all the Great Strengths and boost my defences. Epic Prowess and Armor Skin, different pre-epic spread for more AB and two Great Constitutions or Dexterities, how does that sound? The drawback would be a mere +8 damage in main and +4 in offhand
Quote: christian.schnabel i like the idea behind this build, but without seeing what wizard brings to the build i can't help but see what it takes away: Ranger spells, ranger levels = FEs and earlier BoE, More Rogue. UMD doesn't seem to be very important since a single wiz level automatically qualifies you to read any scroll. i dunno. i just know that i have tried ranger/wizards before, and the result was poor. maybe i just went about it wrong.
As said, scrolls aren't the only advantage of UMD. With UMD, you can pick up items only usable by other classes and probably enhance your abilities more than a build with no UMD who has to submit to these restrictions But yeah, in my opinion five Favoured Enemies is plenty, and Bane of Enemies isn't the only thing about Rangers Arcane spells are, in my eyes, superior to the Ranger ones. You also have to distribute less attribute points since Intelligence is a must have anyway ;D And there's the RP value.
Quote: christian.schnabel also, as a suggestion, you could take assassin instead of rogue to help with XP penalty. represents the darker side of the stalkers' life, perhaps?
Kail answered this too (thanks), but I'll say it again: Rogue is just superior. The XP penalty isn't bad with this build, yes?
Thanks, you brought up alot of points. I hope my answers satisfy you _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
If I were playing this from the ground up, I'd probably only take WIZ to 8 and rush more quickly to Ranger 21 ending at 22 for a final skill dump, WIZ 8 for a final spellcraft dump. 7 will allow you level 4 spells, not sure how useful level 5 ones are. Mightn't be the most powerful way to cut it but ah well. _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
Introduction: Stalker v2
Race: Human
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral (any alignment will do fine, really)
Distribution ------------ Rogue 10/Wizard 9/Ranger 21
Statistics:
AB -- 28 Base +8 Strength +3 Epic Weapon Focus +1 Epic Prowess -2 Dual-Wield -- 38 (39)
Damage ------ 1-6 +8 -- 9-14
1-6 +4 -- 5-10
+2d6 +5 vs FEs
AC -- 10 +2 +8 +2 +3 -- 25 (26)
HP -- 426 (466)
Saves ----- 22 Fortitude 20 Reflex 19 Will
Skills (352 points) ------ ...
The numbers in brackets mean that if you go with GSs, you get 39 AB, GDs 26 AC (+1 initiative ) and with GCs 466 HP.
so, do you people think it's gone better or worse?
EDIT: oh and does anyone know if initiative works like it should in NWN? _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
... But yeah, you were thinking... Ranger 12/Rogue 4/Wizard 4 in pre-epic for 27 BAB? Ranger 14/Rogue 4/Wizard 2 for 28 BAB? ...
the former more than the later. with only 2 levels of wiz pre-epic you might as well wait and take all of them in epic, personally.
Quote: ... Ah, the spells. Haste, Stoneskin, Lesser Spell Mantle, Lesser Mind Blank, Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, Endurance, Darkness, Ultravision, True Strike, Keen Edge, (Improved) Invisibility, Identify, Protection from Alignment, Mage Armor, Lesser Spell Breach for other spellswords and Bigby's Interposing Hand if they don't have SR come to mind ;D ...
the main reason i asked this is that this char will be aubsed my most dragons and spellcasters. dispel wil quickly take away all of the cool powers wiz gives you. i'm not saying it won't happen with ranger spells, but i think it makes less of a difference with a heavier ranger presence.
Quote: ... You have to buy BG2 this instant! Check here for the BG2 classes and subclasses: Click Here ...
thanks for the url. i found some info which i will pour over at my leisure.
Quote: ... The drawback would be a mere +8 damage in main and +4 in offhand ...
doth i detect a note of sarcasm? i didn't mean drop all of the great strs, just two in favour of armor skin and epic prowess. any melee build without weapon foci and epic prowess is missing something, in my eyes. also, whenever the AC is mid 20's in armour, i feel the need to pick up Armor Skin before i mod the stats. but either approach is more than viable. the best defense is a good offense, right? ...or is that the other way around...
Quote: ... As said, scrolls aren't the only advantage of UMD. With UMD, you can pick up items only usable by other classes and probably enhance your abilities more than a build with no UMD who has to submit to these restrictions ...
ah yes, i forgot that part. those extra restricted items can make the difference. point made and accepted.
Quote: ... But yeah, in my opinion five Favoured Enemies is plenty, and Bane of Enemies isn't the only thing about Rangers Arcane spells are, in my eyes, superior to the Ranger ones. You also have to distribute less attribute points since Intelligence is a must have anyway ;D And there's the RP value. ...
well, wizards spells are better, but they should be. wizards need them to be. but besides that, i meant that the ranger spells will be a little less dispellable and that the ranger spells will boost the stealth and similar abilities, which is important for this build. but again, point made.
Quote: ... Thanks, you brought up alot of points. I hope my answers satisfy you
indeed they have. i hope mine have been not too shabby either.
-c
So, you'd recommend finishing with 27 BAB and 28 Strength? That'd make... 40 AB, 38 dual-wielding. Ok, sounds good
Sure, dispel takes all the cool powers from any spellsword type (though this isn't that much a spellsword, just a Ranger with spells. Or something ). That's just the way it works Oh and I was just testing a Paladin heavy boss, whose weapon had Holy Avenger - stripped all my buffs straight away. Almosted bursted to tears, I did.
I do see the usefulness of Armor Skin, but in the first version I was trying to go with full offense. As such, you would have to rely on preparing and planning your fights beforehand. Maybe it's better to try and balance it a little bit, however. Obviously this guy will never be a tank, though
Good point about the ranger spells there. Nevertheless your arcane casting includes the invisibility line of spells as well as Darkness, which is very good for generating sneak attacks.
Maybe I'll build one more version later. And then we can continue from there. _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
Here's the third version
1. Rogue1 - Knockdown/Blind-Fight 2. Wizard1 3. Ranger1 - Weapon Focus * FE (Dual-Wield) 4. Wizard2 5. Ranger2 6. Ranger3 - Extend Spell 7. Rogue2 8. Wizard3 9. Ranger4 - Improved Initiative 10. Ranger5 * FE 11. Ranger6 12. Rogue3 - Improved Knockdown 13. Ranger7 14. Ranger8 15. Ranger9 - Iron Will (ITWF) 16. Ranger10 * FE 17. Rogue4 18. Wizard4 - Toughness 19. Ranger11 20. Ranger12 21. Wizard5 - Epic Weapon Focus * Great Intelligence I 22. Rogue5 23. Ranger13 24. Ranger14 - Epic Prowess 25. Wizard6 26. Rogue6 27. Rogue7 - Armor Skin 28. Wizard7 29. Ranger15 * FE 30. Rogue8 - Superior Initiative 31. Wizard8 32. Rogue9 33. Ranger16 - Great Strength I 34. Ranger17 35. Ranger18 36. Ranger19 - Great Strength II 37. Wizard9 38. Ranger20 * FE 39. Ranger21 - Bane of Enemies 40. Rogue10 * Crippling Strike (or whatever)
no XP penalty at any point
I suppose it's better this way. The only thing you lose is a couple of sneak dice in pre-epic, and one point of damage on both hands. Thank you all whom contributed to this build ^^ Is it final now, christian? _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
... I suppose it's better this way. The only thing you lose is a couple of sneak dice in pre-epic, and one point of damage on both hands. Thank you all whom contributed to this build ^^ Is it final now, christian?
weellllll...i suppooooose... looks great. a litle better balance. but the original still gets the style points for a good take on the Stalker class kit from BG2. the revised gets points for balance. all in all a well done ranger.
-c _________________ “If you bring a Ranger with you, it is well to pay attention to him...”
Quote: christian.schnabel weellllll...i suppooooose... looks great. a litle better balance. but the original still gets the style points for a good take on the Stalker class kit from BG2. the revised gets points for balance. all in all a well done ranger.
Yup, thanks for help. _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
The original Stalker kit was unable to wear any armor heavier than Studded Leather but this guy can wear Hide Armor without losing his Ranger abilities. Note, however, that Arcane Spell Failure does apply while wearing armor/shield. The BG2 backstab system was, as most of you probably know, different, using multipliers. You could reach x3 multiplier with a Stalker character - this build gets 5d6 sneaks, which is nice. As a Stalker you would get a 20% bonus to your stealth skills, but this I chose not to try and bring to the build. I decided to go for Initiative instead (could've gone for ESF: stealth skills) so you strike shiftly from the shadows 
)
Try this:
) and with GCs 466 HP.