Playable in PvE 1-40. Gains relative power in low-magic worlds.
Interestingly there weren't any builds like this one on the library search. None that used this class combo at all. I'm making a lot of rogue/COTs and bard/COTs lately - this was a natural step from there.
Also, it was a chance to make a Halfling of Dooooooom!
Halfling, Non-Evil Str 8 Dex 18 Con 12 Wis 8 Int 14 Cha 15
1 Rog (1): Knockdown 2 Rog (2): 3 Rog (3): Weapon Finesse 4 Bar (1): +1 dex 5 Bar (2): 6 Rog (4): Weapon Focus (Dagger)% 7 Bar (3): 8 Rog (5): +1 dex 9 Bar (4): Curse Song 10 Rog (6): 11 COT (1): 12 Rog (7): +1 dex, Iron Will* 13 COT (2): Improved Knockdown+ 14 COT (3): 15 COT (4): Extend Spell, Blind-Fighting+ 16 COT (5): +1 dex 17 Rog (8): 18 COT (6): Toughness, Improved Critical (Dagger)+* 19 COT (7): 20 COT (8): +1 dex, Dodge+ 21 Rog (9): Epic Weapon Focus (Dagger)% 22 Rog (10): Improved Evasion# 23 Bar (5): 24 Bar (6): +1 dex, Great Dex 1 25 Bar (7): 26 Bar (8): 27 Rog (11): Great Dex 2 28 Rog (12): +1 dex 29 Rog (13): Defensive Roll# 30 Bar (9): Epic Dodge 31 Bar (10): 32 Bar (11): +1 dex 33 Rog (14): Great Dex 3 34 Rog (15): 35 Bar (12): 36 Bar (13): +1 cha, Epic Prowess 37 Bar (14): 38 Bar (15): 39 Rog (16): Armor Skin, Crippling Strike# 40 Bar (16): +1 dex
About 300 skill points - Concentration, Discipline, Perform 27, Tumble, UMD are musts. Leftovers can go to rogue skills, taunt, spellcraft, etc.
Ending Vitals: Dex 30 Cha 16
AB +41 with mundane dagger AB +39 with mundane throwing weapon 8d6 sneak attack
AC 30 naked 352 max hp F 25 R 41 W 24 (+8 vs spells +2 vs fear)
Level 6 bard spells, level 16 bard song.
FAQ: Q: So what are the highlights in this build? It seems a little weaker than the other rogue/COTs you've done. A: Well, a rogue/cleric/COT is hard to beat for raw power, but this character benefits heavily from having a lot of skill points and an almost limitless skill selection. He also picks up epic dodge and has a reasonably average unbuffed AB for a melee.
Bardsong is a nice benefit, and with the bard spells you have strong buffing and, possibly, some small healing ability (up to cure critical wounds if you want it).
As a dex build you haven't got to worry about arcane failure. And you're a halfling of doom!
Q: Why don't you get a higher dex? And how come 8 strength? A: Not enough room in the build for more dex. The strength is 8 because of the halfling penalty - you could trade off points in other stats for it but I found this the most acceptable since I can buff it to 10 or higher using bull's strength from relatively early on.
I didn't want to lower int because of skillpoints and IKD, an didn't want to lower con because this build's got relatively low hitpoints.
Q: Why halfling? Why not human? A: You can be human - in fact if you don't like having an 8 strength and wielding a dagger, you should be. I'd use the free feat at level 1 on strong soul to pump those saves and compensate a bit for not having the halfling's Lucky and Fearless traits. The extra skillpoints won't hurt you either.
But halfling yields this build +1 to AB and +1 to AC over a human, in addition to the racial innate abilities, doesn't get an exp penalty, and I like making Halflings of Doom.
Q: Why not use a kukri? Heck, isn't having to use a dagger reason enough not to be a halfling? A: I didn't think kukri was worth burning a feat on, especially because I had to get weapon focus before I started getting any bonus feats from COT and that resulted in some tightness in the feats.
There's no reason not to use a dagger, in my opinion. With 8d6 sneak attacks, the damage dice of whatever weapon you wield will be far overshadowed by your sneak damage.
Q: But doesn't being small work against you for using knockdowns? A: Unfortunately yes, you won't be knocking down anything very big and will have a harder time knocking down medium sized opponents than a human would. Luckily you have creature summoning and darkness/ultravision to fall back on for generating sneak attacks, and a taunt/curse song combo can make IKD a breeze to land, even on people with good discipline skill values.
And once you start stacking crippling strikes on top of that, it just gets easier and easier to beat the victim's discipline every time.
Q: Aren't your fort and will saves kinda low for a COT build? A: Yes... I was disappointed by that. It's kinda sad about dex builds - they often end up with huge reflex saves when thanks to improved evasion they really don't need it. You might want to replace Improved Critical with Great Fortitude, or try to rearrange things to take Strong Soul at level 1 and drop Improved Critical to preserve your other feats, depending on your environment. Taking knockdown at level 1 was sort of a default because I couldn't get Finesse until level 3.
This is a place where the Halfling choice shines, though - their racial saving throw bonuses help the fort and will saves into an area where they are "average" instead of "poor."
Q: Why didn't you make this a plate-wearing human strength build, and magic be damned? A: That build could work, but it's a seperate build for another time. The major factors going into this particular build being a dex character were epic dodge and not worrying about arcane failure. Halfling came after, but worked out quite nice at it. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Edited By Xylophone on 12/01/05 07:54
It has potential. As a platform or inspiration, particularly.
I haven't ever built halfing and given the disastrous results of my dwarf efforts, I won't start now (humans and elves for me, thanks).
The AB and AC are impressive. And the Grizz would point out that the rogue levels prevent at least THIS dex build from suffering the big AC drop when flat-footed. So he will be hard to hit, regardless. Would be great if you could work some self-concealment in but that is the rub in building, what makes it fun.
By the way, experience teaches that judgment is spelled without an "e."
Cheers.
Bard gets displacement and improved invisibility as level 3 and 4 spells, respectively - you don't need SC The main drawback of it is that it's dispellable, but considering that you'd need five epic feats to get SC 5, I think it's a pretty valid trade-off to use your spells instead.
Looking at this build again, I'm tempted to make a version that sacrifices bard levels in favor of COT and rogue - possibly 11 bard/19 rogue/10 COT - but I do think this guy can stand on his own merits. The level 16 bardsong is very nice, after all, and the more people in your party, the better it gets. Maybe I'll do the 11/19/10 variant as a different race.
Experience also teaches that judgement is in the dictionary as I spell it Admittedly, judgment is too, but doesn't look right in text (it, not spelled the way it's pronounced) in the opinion of this American English-speaker. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
I agree with your SC analysis and retract the thought.
On switching the Bard to Rogue, I wouldn't. level 16 bard song adds +5 to AC and takes 5 away from AC through Curse Song. I was actually looking at your pre-epic feats to see if you could squeeze in lingering song, so I would be very much against that. You would, of course, pick up the extra rogue feat and 2d6 of sneak, so it would not be worthless. Just not worth as much as that bard song. Level 11 only adds/takes 2 from AC. The 16 song also adds/takes hit points and skill points and save points, so it is a big intangible to play around with.
For what it's worth.
And I yield to your dictionary (maybe I should ask which dictionary that is ), but I will still spell it judgment.
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It's judgment, dammit, JUDGMENT!
Edited By Ithacan on 12/02/05 00:05
Maybe we should find a third party to render either their judgement or judgment on this spelling debate! I used www.dictionary.com to look it up and make sure
I think you can fit in lingering song... I forget if you need to take it on a bard class level or not. If so, suggest spreading the bard levels out more in the pre-epic to take it at level 12 or 15.
Something like 8 rogue/2 bard to level 10 (so you can snag finesse at 3 and have enough AB to qualify for COT at level 11 still). _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
griphook _________________ Your both Correct,Dammit, BOTH CORRECT
Yes, there are quite a few words in English that suffer from the malady of two spellings. It depends on where you are and who the absolute authority is. In fact, English suffers from many maladies and ailments.
Traveled and travelled are another example. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Well as long as we keep our to, too, and two's straight, and there, they're, and their's straight, I'm happy. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Don't forget your, you're, and yore! _________________ Intelligent design is neither. Science over superstition please.
Yes, there are quite a few words in English that suffer from the malady of two spellings. It depends on where you are and who the absolute authority is. In fact, English suffers from many maladies and ailments.
Traveled and travelled are another example.
This abomination is a direct result of the Chicago Manual of Style and was inflicted upon the world around the same time as the 'new math' IIRC. While saner heads prevailed and the new math was abandoned, publishers fell upon the CMS like dogs on rotten meat and from that point on, the printed English language has been butchered unmercifully.
Thus we have 'words' like traveler and its ilk. The whole bloody written language is quickly going into the crapper. I shudder to think something like 'preventative' may acually rear its ugly head in any reliable reference... then we can all be assured the final sign of the Apocalypse is upon us. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Quote: Posted 12/02/05 00:04:48 (GMT) -- Ithacan
And I yield to your dictionary (maybe I should ask which dictionary that is ), but I will still spell it judgment.
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It's judgment, dammit, JUDGMENT!
Sorry bud, but I have to side with Xylo. "Judgment" looks like "judd-guh-ment" to me.
This night, I stand with "judgement". _________________ Intelligent design is neither. Science over superstition please.
And I yield to your dictionary (maybe I should ask which dictionary that is ), but I will still spell it judgment.
---------------
It's judgment, dammit, JUDGMENT!
Sorry bud, but I have to side with Xylo. "Judgment" looks like "judd-guh-ment" to me.
This night, I stand with "judgement".
It is enough for me that Grip has my back. Or half of it anyway.
It is a funny idiosyncracy of the English language, or the evolution of it, that if enough people get it wrong enough times, their mistake becomes acceptable usage. But remember, it is a polyglot language at heart so that is the way it will go.
I think you can fit in lingering song... I forget if you need to take it on a bard class level or not. If so, suggest spreading the bard levels out more in the pre-epic to take it at level 12 or 15.
Something like 8 rogue/2 bard to level 10 (so you can snag finesse at 3 and have enough AB to qualify for COT at level 11 still).
You do have to take lingering song - and curse song and extra song and lasting inspiration - on bard levels. With a Level 16 Bard/Curse song, I think it would be worth it.
The main drawback of it is that it's dispellable, but considering that you'd need five epic feats to get SC 5, I think it's a pretty valid trade-off to use your spells instead.
), but I will still spell it judgment. 
